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The blackjack, centurion and especially the hatchetman are also much too new.
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Feb 7, 2023 18:01
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Thanks. I will swap those three for Thunderbolt, Banshee, and Victor. I also think I will swap a Longbow into the SLDF company because it's light on missile boats.
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Feb 7, 2023 18:14
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Masterunitlist.info lets you sort units by date and era, so you could mock up the forces there and edit as necessary.
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Feb 7, 2023 18:16
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Dr. Lunchables posted:Masterunitlist.info lets you sort units by date and era, so you could mock up the forces there and edit as necessary. I was curious what the "worst" and "best" mechs were based on BV, and I was surprised by the best, but not by the worst. The worst: Trooper TP-1R at 236 BV. It's a 20 ton prototype Flea. http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7407/trooper-tp-1r https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Flea#Variants The best: Ryoken III-XP (Skinwalker) C at 4,387 BV, a 55 ton Dark Age mech. http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7381/ryoken-iii-xp-skinwalker-c https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Skinwalker_(Ryoken_III)#Prototype_Configurations It's only 55 tons, I expected something closer to 100 tons here, the second highest BV one makes sense, the Turkina Z, a 95 ton mech. What makes this variant of the Ryoken III-XP so expensive? Nothing in that loadout jumps out at me.
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Feb 7, 2023 18:55
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TSEMP
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Feb 7, 2023 18:59
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TSEMP and a Targeting Computer
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Feb 7, 2023 19:07
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Occasional reminder that BV sucks and sometimes doesn't reflect a unit's practical value at all
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Feb 7, 2023 19:13
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Still way better than tonnage for balance.
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Feb 7, 2023 19:18
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My first introduction to the game in the 90's was from a friend who assured me straight ton-for-ton was the way to do it. I dutifully picked out a couple IS mechs from the TRO he offered to loan me for our first game, and he picked out some Clan mechs before I even knew much about the game, let alone there was something besides 3025 IS technology. We went 200 tons and I got to learn what a Daishi and an ER-PPC were the hard way. It's a testament to how fun it is to fill in bubbles and shove around tiny giant robots that I kept playing. I think this introduction is part of why I'm obstinately an IS/succession war Grognard and tend to bullheadedly regard later tech as all ways to have your cake and eat it without meaningful compromise. This was very on-brand for his whole approach to life. There was a Battletech game on America Online we both played, and rather than accept a loss he'd hard-reset his computer to dump out of the match to keep a perfect record as it didn't count if you disco'ed. The one time he was cored out before he could power off he punched a hole through the drywall by the desk housing his sweet Pentium 100 rig. He ended up being a Las Vegas DUI lawyer, which in retrospect was a perfect fit for his narcisistic personality.
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Feb 7, 2023 19:19
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Owlbear Camus posted:Thanks. I will swap those three for Thunderbolt, Banshee, and Victor. If the Banshee is the 3S from the force packs, that's even newer than the Hatchetman. You'll need to get the dumpy one with two hands.
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Feb 7, 2023 19:23
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PV is still the best balance metric.
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Feb 7, 2023 19:28
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Defiance Industries posted:The blackjack, centurion and especially the hatchetman are also much too new.
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Feb 7, 2023 19:29
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I thought the SLDF rejected the design and it ended up getting picked up by the Feddies during the buildup to the First Succession War? Like the Dragon.
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Feb 7, 2023 19:38
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It had a bad reputation but the SLDF passed it to Hegemony militia units, who threw it Taurian-wise when they ended up being committed to combat (when Amaris was moving RWR troops into garrisons that Hegemony militia units would have held...) which is why the Capellans and FedSuns ended up with them. Maybe this SLDF unit re-recaptured it from the Taurians and was able to get it back into working order?
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Feb 7, 2023 19:41
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Chainclaw posted:What makes this variant of the Ryoken III-XP so expensive? Triple-Strength Myomer, Ferro-Lamellor armor (only takes 4/5th of incoming damage, completely immune to LB-X Autocannon cluster munitions and other 1-damage hits), targeting computer with a TSEMP Cannon backed up by 4 Clan ER Medium Lasers. ATMs are also slightly over-costed BV-wise. But the real killer there is the Neural Interface cockpit, so it's the Clan version of the Gestalt. That means the pilot can operate it while wearing BattleArmor which makes the pilot incredibly difficult to kill.
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Feb 7, 2023 19:41
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For my purposes probably too new to have bull horns on it, anyway based on that.
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Feb 7, 2023 19:41
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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:Occasional reminder that BV sucks and sometimes doesn't reflect a unit's practical value at all TSEMP shouldn't exist and if the solution to it is pricing anything that has it out of the game then so be it.
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Feb 7, 2023 19:42
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Finally played Alpha Strike. It's... okay? We did the two scenarios in the Alpha Strike box and while the games were fast and fun enough, it didn't really feel like Battletech. Mechs died way too fast, usually in 1 or 2 shots with assaults taking maybe 3-4 hits. The classic rules really hit the feel of armored behemoths slugging it out, where Alpha Strike felt more like something like 40k where models die in one hit. I can see it as a way to get as many mechs on the table as possible and finishing the game in an evening, but I think generally I'd rather use the classic rules and just play a low BV game if I want to get done fast.
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Feb 7, 2023 19:49
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The standard unit in Alpha Strike isn’t the mech, it’s the lance.
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Feb 7, 2023 19:56
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Yeah, I really think Alpha Strike isn't great until you're at least Company scale and using formations and stuff.
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Feb 7, 2023 20:05
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Floppychop posted:Finally played Alpha Strike. It's... okay? I believe one of the optional rules in the Commander Edition is that you can roll for each point of damage. So if you are hitting for 5 you roll 5 times to see how much damage you do. Should slow the game down just enough while keeping the speed like the clix game did. I'm looking at becoming a Demo lead for my local clix game to teach them Alpha Strike, and get one of those cool patches. A demo guy says there's no one in this area so my application should go through.
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Feb 7, 2023 20:07
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:I believe one of the optional rules in the Commander Edition is that you can roll for each point of damage. So if you are hitting for 5 you roll 5 times to see how much damage you do. Should slow the game down just enough while keeping the speed like the clix game did. Yep, it’s mentioned in the rules An apparently widespead rule is the Death From Above Wargaming style: you throw one ”pilot” die and then one die for each point of damage. You add the pilot die to all of the other dice to see how many points of damage you did. For example, if my mech has a damage stat of 3 and would hit with 9+, I’d throw the pilot die and three other dice. I get a 4 on the pilot die and 2, 3 and 5 on the others, so I got 6, 7 and 9 and did one point of damage. It’s how the two games of Alpha Strike I’ve played went and I liked it well enough - it made it feel just a tad more like Classic because it feels like each mech is firing multiple weapons instead of one big one. Some people don’t like this method as it is a bit swingy and I get that - I do think rolling 2d6 per point of damage is better statistically. You could also roll all points simultaneously if you’ve just got enough dice of different colors. Edit: Oh yeah, I know some people also just use D12s a cyborg mug fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Feb 7, 2023 |
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Feb 7, 2023 20:15
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Floppychop posted:Still way better than tonnage for balance. Owlbear Camus posted:My first introduction to the game in the 90's was from a friend who assured me straight ton-for-ton was the way to do it. No argument from me on tonnage being a metric for anything, the Charger's a great example of that without even going into higher tech. Dr. Lunchables posted:PV is still the best balance metric. I was actually going to argue for fixed assignment tables by faction + era + highly/middling/poorly equipped + lance & unit role. The writers already take ridiculous pains to make random assignment tables, they should really just bite the bullet and go all the way. Drop in a few variants and alternate 'Mechs in each table for + or - some force value. "but my freedom of choice and campaign--" no. shut up. If you want to make a weirdo force then you weren't focused on mathnerding power levels or balancing a purely tactical single force-on-force scenario anyways
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Feb 7, 2023 20:17
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Second double post of the day for another reminder that most players I've met who want to nerd out about the construction rules only want to make literally the most optimal damage-per-round-at-range designs anyways. Given the also-poor balance of construction rules, those optimal designs are already fairly obvious for each tonnage, and so everyone's special little robots all look the same.
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Feb 7, 2023 20:24
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Floppychop posted:Finally played Alpha Strike. It's... okay? Others have mentioned, but you want to be playing 12v12 at a minimum, that's the rough equivalent of a Lance v Lance fight in classic. It's more game-y than BattleTech, which means it's overall better balanced and there're actual tradeoffs for Clan units. It's a good tool for onboarding new players by letting them fight a big battle or two to get used to BattleTech's line of sight rules and things like Jump Jets, movement, facing, etc. It's also super easy to introduce things from classic as you go. Want to swap to hex maps? Divide movement by 2, that's your hex movement. Then once they're comfortable and itching for more you drop the rest of the crunch on them.
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Feb 7, 2023 20:27
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Minmaxed mechs sound so boring. I’d get them if you wanted to play exclusively with them against other minmaxed mechs, I guess. I really dig how in BattleTech every mech design is a product of its era and whatever they happened to have access to and need for at the time. There’s mechs that were lovingly designed with vast resources and shovelware garbage created to make a quick buck out of some war crimes, and everything inbetween. Sometimes all you get is a Whitworth and that’s what you’ll have to make do with. At least you’re probably going to have a better time than the guy in like a Scorpion tank a cyborg mug fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Feb 7, 2023 |
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Feb 7, 2023 20:27
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Dr. Lunchables posted:The standard unit in Alpha Strike isn’t the mech, it’s the lance. Then they should have made that explicit, like in BattleForce 2. BF2 ruled and they should have supported it better. Every fight in the FCCW was RCTs fighting RCTs and they completely slept on it. Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:Second double post of the day for another reminder that most players I've met who want to nerd out about the construction rules only want to make literally the most optimal damage-per-round-at-range designs anyways. Yeah I haven't allowed customs at my table since there was a World Trade Center for these reasons. Unit design is a solved problem. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Feb 7, 2023 |
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Feb 7, 2023 20:42
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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:Second double post of the day for another reminder that most players I've met who want to nerd out about the construction rules only want to make literally the most optimal damage-per-round-at-range designs anyways. Agreed, I'd pile this under the "cake and eat it without much compromise" phenomenon of later tech saying "oh you can have lighter this and more damaging that, but it uh costs some already empty crit slots." Using stock units also appeals to the Grognard in me that screeches that Timmy's Optimal Original Mech Design Do Not Steal never existed, isn't actually feesable with the tech as described even if it follows the design rules, would be a nightmare to maintain, and daggone it is not part of this pretend universe. Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Feb 7, 2023 |
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Feb 7, 2023 20:49
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Unit design isn't a solved problem for anything other than the most boring kind of optimization, that being the aforementioned damage-per-round-at-range. There are dozens of other ways to optimize mechs that produce fun and interesting designs. Use your loving imaginations for once instead of complaining about your most boring player's idea of a good time. Just within the last couple years we've gotten new (official) designs that are genuinely phenomenal and you'd be hard pressed to do better with a custom design, and most of them are orders of magnitude more interesting than any example of a boring optimized design. 
Strobe fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Feb 7, 2023 |
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Feb 7, 2023 20:56
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I just like "what if the ballistic Dragon got some love that didn't twist its design too hard instead of the Grand smothering it" and stuff like that, relatively minor changes that still aren't as "good" as canon designs but are neat exercises. I also don't bring them to the table, though. Wouldn't want to open the can of worms and don't trust any of the local players not to take advantage if the opportunity currently.
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Feb 7, 2023 21:09
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Locally we generally only do canon mech variants. However, every now and then we have a "hot rod night" and have a big free for all where everyone brings whatever custom builds they want.
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Feb 7, 2023 21:56
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a cyborg mug posted:Edit: Oh yeah, I know some people also just use D12s Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:Second double post of the day for another reminder that most players I've met who want to nerd out about the construction rules only want to make literally the most optimal damage-per-round-at-range designs anyways.
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Feb 8, 2023 00:49
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Why would you use a D12? Like is adding two numbers really taking up that much time?
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Feb 8, 2023 01:06
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The Hellstar is an amazing mech you take that back.
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Feb 8, 2023 01:14
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I haven't read the rules, but you can't just replace a 2d6 roll with a 1d12 roll. You gently caress up the probability curve. 2d6 is a bell, 1d12 is flat. Completely different.
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Feb 8, 2023 01:43
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Mech design can be fun if you have a target or a challenge to meet with the design. Cost limits, tech limits, logistical restrictions, and so on.
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Feb 8, 2023 02:09
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Defiance Industries posted:Why would you use a D12? I haven’t played with such people but the ones I’ve seen talk about online just think it makes the game faster  Volkova III posted:I haven't read the rules, but you can't just replace a 2d6 roll with a 1d12 roll. You gently caress up the probability curve. 2d6 is a bell, 1d12 is flat. Completely different. Totally. I mean to be clear - I wouldn’t use D12s due to these very reasons, but I know some people do.
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Feb 8, 2023 02:19
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When it comes to customization, there are general three phases I see people go through. Phase 1 - 'IDK It Just Sounds Cool': Just starting out, everything is new and interest to you, and you design 'Mechs based off of whatever idea springs forth from your head. Things like Balance and Functionality are the furthest thing from your mind because you have a giant toybox and you want to play with all the fun toys~ Phase 2 - 'Stop Having Fun Guy': The 'typical' customizer. Someone who customizes based off of what is optimal for whatever task you set forth. This is the stage most custom builders never really grow out of because they let competition take hold. The guys who give unit design a bad rep. Phase 3 - 'The LoreWarrior': At this point of the game, it's no longer about building what is optimal, but what makes sense from an in-universe sense, where you factor in things beyond raw numbers and cost-to-effectiveness ratios. A lot of the time, it's the result of a Phase 2er wondering why some canon designs are so aggressively bad, and they wind up falling down the rabbithole. You start asking yourself things like 'Why does Marik use so many designs with Large Lasers when they could instead use a PPC? Oh wait, it's because they build the Awesome, and those require so many PPCs per chassis that they don't have many left to spare for other designs. That makes sense.' and you start noticing trends amongst the various factions. I used to be a Phase 2er when I first started out, but I have since transitioned to a Phase 3 builder, because I find highly optimized designs boring and the lore reasons for things tickles my fancy, and generally when I do customize units, I tend to restrict myself to the Upgrades that make the most sense from a lore perspective, which is why I adore that Strategic Operations included a chart that lists what kind of modifications require what level of work (Field Refit, Maintenance, Factory), and I generally disallow anything that would require a Factory-Level Refit from play on the grounds that most people do not have the required sway needed to convince the procurement office that 'Yes I really need to have a team of top-tier technicians peel my 'Mech down to the skeleton and rebuild it from the ground up so I can fit five hundred LRMs onto it'
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Feb 8, 2023 02:27
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We found that the best way to play both bad Mechs and optimized ones was to mix up victory scenarios. My favorite was a mad dash from one end of the map to the other, trying to get as many units past a firing line as possible while losing victory points each turn. Do you sacrifice one or two? Do you just sprint your way across and whoever makes it, makes it? One kid made a really good chart to measure victory points by faction that traded off tonnage you escape with vs. how long it took you to get off map, and the inverse for the blocking team. I wish I still had it.
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Feb 8, 2023 03:53
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a cyborg mug posted:I haven’t played with such people but the ones I’ve seen talk about online just think it makes the game faster Now I'm wondering if there are people who replace 2d6 with 3d4. 
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Feb 8, 2023 08:23
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