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XP is good to give your players a concrete sense of where they are in a level. If your players are getting the poo poo kicked out of them by enemies, but they're really close to the next level, Milestone doesn't do anything for that whereas XP does. Remember you can also give XP for story reasons (avoiding fights, etc) or for "story" reasons (gently caress it just level).
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Feb 8, 2023 04:22
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Another way to look at it is to break the level into 10-12 "chunks", maybe a 12-part Clock? When that fills, level up. Fill a space after an encounter, combat or otherwise and multiples for something really difficult.
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Feb 8, 2023 04:33
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5E OP eventually got rid of XP in the form of milestones where you got checkpoints for each hour of an adventure (which generally came in 1, 2, and 4 hour blocks for non-fullbook adventures), and that worked out just fine, so if you want a feeling of discrete progress, just do that instead of maths.
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Feb 8, 2023 16:59
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Pinwiz11 posted:Another way to look at it is to break the level into 10-12 "chunks", maybe a 12-part Clock? When that fills, level up. Fill a space after an encounter, combat or otherwise and multiples for something really difficult. This is kind of already the PF2E XP system? It's 1000 XP per level, and XP for encounters or quests are all multiples of 10, like it's slightly more discrete but in practice it's about 12 moderate(80 XP) encounters per level, a bit less since you should complete some quests in there and overcoming an encounter in any manner counts (sneaking around it, running away to avoid it, dealing with it socially, whatever) I tracked XP for AV, and it just made my players obsessed with exploring every square of every floor, and then most of the time they would level before hitting the boss and it would make the boss easy. If I did it again I'd do milestone like I do most of the time. I also tracked XP for the hex crawl at the start of Fist of the Ruby Phoenix, and that went better since there're hard time limits, and my players said they liked it since they felt rewarded for really planning out their hex crawl path and optimizing things. Obviously if your players don't want to have to optimize their exploration it may go less well. I ran milestone for the rest of it though since I didn't want them to feel like they should cruise the city looking for trouble in between bouts just for the XP or something awkward. I might try tracking XP again for Quest for the Frozen Flame, since there's a lot of hex crawling, but I'm still really early in prep for that so I'm not sure if there's enough time pressure to prevent them from doing something really annoying like crawling every single hex of every single map for XP. Because my players will definitely do that if there's nothing to stop them.
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Feb 8, 2023 17:39
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To be fair, in some contexts that could be considered a benefit of using XP over milestones. If your players are the kind of people who rush to the next major plot point instantly, XP could be good for making them slow down and actually experience some of that side content. I'd still treat milestones as the default myself, but it's worth thinking about whether milestones or XP would work better for your group dynamic.
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Feb 8, 2023 17:57
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Speaking of XP vs milestone, this is what Brennan Lee Mulligan and Matt Mercer thinks of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbgYM39j8Mc
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Feb 8, 2023 20:08
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I remembering seeing the short with Mercer's side of things so I was going to post that but you beat me to it. I am planning to use XP because I want to have side objectives and I'm hoping it'll feel more rewarding that way, especially with how it's always just 1000 xp to level in P2e meaning there isn't that much math to level up.
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Feb 8, 2023 21:32
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Any tips/advice/changes for running the Beginner Box adventure with 5e experienced players? It looks pretty simple but it's also mostly a new system so I'm thinking just run it straight. I do wish it came with more reference cards though; I can just print more off but they won't be as high quality. Edit: Oh it actually came with six cards, not four. That's plenty then. Admiral Joeslop fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Feb 8, 2023 |
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Feb 8, 2023 21:45
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Admiral Joeslop posted:Any tips/advice/changes for running the Beginner Box adventure with 5e experienced players? It looks pretty simple but it's also mostly a new system so I'm thinking just run it straight. I do wish it came with more reference cards though; I can just print more off but they won't be as high quality. The main thing to watch out for, system-wise, is that the game expects some level of real tactical engagement and teamwork from the whole group. If they just reenact the "stand still and use every action to attack" anecdotes I've seen a few times they'll have a bad time.
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Feb 8, 2023 22:45
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I've just started running with a mix of experienced D&D players and inexperienced anything players. The advice I've given is "Three action economy means that you can technically attack three times in a turn. It doesn't mean it's a good idea."
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Feb 8, 2023 23:37
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Roadie posted:The main thing to watch out for, system-wise, is that the game expects some level of real tactical engagement and teamwork from the whole group. If they just reenact the "stand still and use every action to attack" anecdotes I've seen a few times they'll have a bad time. To add to this, classes published after the core rulebook often require more work to play. As an example, I have a gunslinger in my campaign who sometimes just wants to shoot things and it absolutely isn't a class for spamming bullets. They require layered buffs and debuffs from the entire team to reliably get fatal critical hits otherwise they are going to suck. When properly supported they can do incredible things. New players don't know how to do this yet. For the beginner box I'd stick to core classes and also avoid the alchemist.
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Feb 8, 2023 23:42
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Lamuella posted:I've just started running with a mix of experienced D&D players and inexperienced anything players. The advice I've given is "Three action economy means that you can technically attack three times in a turn. It doesn't mean it's a good idea." Unless you're a fighter doing a trip combo, just stand in their face and dare them to stand up. edit: speaking of trip, for this feat https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=403 You still trip the opponent right? It's just always an auto crit?? Seems pretty buff. And would the -10 MAP still apply? appropriatemetaphor fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Feb 9, 2023 |
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Feb 9, 2023 00:27
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appropriatemetaphor posted:Unless you're a fighter doing a trip combo, just stand in their face and dare them to stand up. Yeah, you get a free crit trip on a succesful hit. It rules.
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Feb 9, 2023 00:48
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Is there a GM screen that lists off all the secret rolls?
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Feb 9, 2023 00:54
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Speaking of keeping secrets, how are you supposed to deal with items with curses and things in the VTT/pathbuilder/aonprd world? It's one thing to say 'please don't read this adventure path'. It's another to say 'never look up your item in aonprd' since every item from every adventure path is in there and explains the curse. I haven't checked what shows up in Foundry yet but I wouldn't be surprised if it just shows stuff to the player in there too.
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Feb 9, 2023 01:52
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Rescue Toaster posted:Speaking of keeping secrets, how are you supposed to deal with items with curses and things in the VTT/pathbuilder/aonprd world? It's one thing to say 'please don't read this adventure path'. It's another to say 'never look up your item in aonprd' since every item from every adventure path is in there and explains the curse. I haven't checked what shows up in Foundry yet but I wouldn't be surprised if it just shows stuff to the player in there too. By default you can set it as unidentified and put in a name/description, but this can't be done directly from the compendium entry. I'd have to tinker around to see if it actually still applies the effects when worn. kirtar fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Feb 9, 2023 |
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Feb 9, 2023 02:57
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I've always just created a manual replica of the item minus the poo poo they don't need to know. yet. You can't stop them from like going to AoN or looking it up or whatever. But in a VTT you have far more control over what you show and give the player.
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Feb 9, 2023 03:14
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Especially the problem is cursed items still don't reveal the curse even once identified. It's only once invested, though the rules don't seem clear if the person immediately becomes aware of the details curse even at that point. It's quiet on the topic of items that aren't invested but may have some cursed effect/downside that kicks in conditionally when used. Just recreating the item and naming it vaguely or naming it something else and only providing the features they should be aware of seems valid. I need to play around with duplicating/modifying magic items in Foundry.
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Feb 9, 2023 04:17
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I'm usually more of a milestone gm but modules that make it easy to grant and track XP in foundry has converted both of my groups.
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Feb 9, 2023 15:59
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I started playing pf2e recently and have been having fun. The only complaint I have so far is fomo for other classes and I've been making characters in path builder that I'll likely never play.
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Feb 10, 2023 02:43
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Big Mouth Billy Basshole posted:I started playing pf2e recently and have been having fun. The only complaint I have so far is fomo for other classes and I've been making characters in path builder that I'll likely never play. That's part of the fun of Pathbuilder. Take whatever combo of ancestry, background, and class you want, and set them to level 20 and see what chaos you can unleash into the universe. And then you start making them with Free Archetype and the madness really begins.
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Feb 10, 2023 03:43
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Kvantum posted:That's part of the fun of Pathbuilder. Take whatever combo of ancestry, background, and class you want, and set them to level 20 and see what chaos you can unleash into the universe. Free Archetype is probably the most brilliant optional rule I've ever seen.
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Feb 10, 2023 04:41
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What’s the average power level of a level 20 PF2 character compared to 5e? I always understood 5E to be demigod nonsense at those levels and 2E definitely gets powerful but not cosmic entity level? Seems appropriately heroic.
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Feb 10, 2023 05:09
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You're still probably a demigod since there's not exactly an abundance of level 10-20 people in most settings, and you're still beating up demon generals or really old dragons that are potentially nation or world ending threats in-narrative. There's just not really any scry and fry or punpun level stuff that tends to derail campaigns or the power per level math. The system balance works across all classes all the way up to max level basically. You do get some cool feats like "you're so good at getting into places you can walk between the hairline mortar cracks in a brick wall" though. However you're not, by default, at the power level of directly beating up the Golarion deities themselves by PF2 level 20 in the Golarion setting. Suzera fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Feb 10, 2023 |
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Feb 10, 2023 05:46
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Bottom Liner posted:What’s the average power level of a level 20 PF2 character compared to 5e? I always understood 5E to be demigod nonsense at those levels and 2E definitely gets powerful but not cosmic entity level? Seems appropriately heroic. So part of it is difficult to compare. If you grab a level 20 5e martial, they're going to be good, but they're still significantly vulnerable to just dying to enough random peasant archers. This is somewhat true of any 5e character or monster. In PF2, this is completely impossible. If you consider a standard level 1 archer to have +7 attack (which is the attack of a level 1 Guard NPC), even a level 20 wizard can have more than 38 AC, meaning they literally cannot be hit by that level 1 archer, even if they roll a 20. That said, a level 15+ PF2 character can do things like yell at people and make them drop dead (Scare to Death), cause earthquakes by stamping their feet (barbarian level 18 feat), basically huck fireballs with every throw (Mega Bomb), turn into a Super Saiyan (Ki Form), drop from literally any height and take no damage (Cat Fall), etc.
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Feb 10, 2023 05:46
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Bottom Liner posted:What’s the average power level of a level 20 PF2 character compared to 5e? I always understood 5E to be demigod nonsense at those levels and 2E definitely gets powerful but not cosmic entity level? Seems appropriately heroic. By comparison to points of relative equivalence between systems (gods, demons, dragons, etc), top-end PF2 characters are probably a smidge below 5e wizards and a skyscraper above 5e martial characters.This mostly comes down to how incredibly bullshit (read: poorly worded and open-ended) some 5e high level spells are as compared to their PF2 equivalents (which tend to be rituals, meaning not castable by 1 dude usually, or weakened overall). A different take would be that PF2e characters are much more superheroic because the math lets you outscale weak enemies much, much more. They both top out at roughly the same enemy types (truly ancient dragons, lesser demon lords, maybe a weak demigod or two) and can't properly touch anything higher on the totem pole (like gods, really strong demon lords, etc.) Funnily enough, previous editions of each system were at least theoretically much higher in power scaling, between Mythic levels for Pathfinder letting people get up to actual demigod level (and the hilariously broken balance letting them do more than that) and 4e straight up allowing you to fight full-on deities by the end (in part because of it having 10 more levels and the epic destiny system.) I personally miss it and wish that kind of scaling was kept as an official option. Jen X fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Feb 10, 2023 |
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Feb 10, 2023 06:45
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If level 20 5e (or3.5) characters feel like demigods who can do whatever they want, level 20 pathfinder characters probably feel closer to superheroes - they can do absolutely bonkers things, and ordinary people and threats are nothing to them and they’ll just shrug them off, but they can absolutely be challenged on their own terms by threats of equal power, and they don’t have the keys to just unlock and rewrite reality to suit their needs for the most part - they have superpowers, but those superpowers are specific and defined and have rules governing them too
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Feb 10, 2023 06:48
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Demon Lords and other entities are considered to be Levels 26 to 30. Treerazer a not Quite Demon Lord is Level 25, so I wonder how he does against a Level 20 party of four. Demon Lords in 5e are a little lower.
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Feb 10, 2023 06:57
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never played 5e but if comparing to pf1, feels like probably about half as powerful in terms of ability to affect the world as my party's progressing through ruby phoenix. maybe a little less? either way don't expect to be a god. lots of stuff is gated behind uncommon and rare tags, and it's really just designed to be a fundamentally lower power
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Feb 10, 2023 07:47
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What's the earliest a full caster can get weapon expertise? Is there any way to pick it up before level 11?
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Feb 10, 2023 09:04
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The most obvious non-class source of expert proficiency in weapons I can think of is in the Fighter archetype and that comes at level 12, so 11th is the earliest you're going to see. Weapon and armor proficiencies are fairly hard-locked to what your base class gives you. The best you can get from archetypes and ancestry feats is expanding your existing proficiency ranks to more types, like Sentinel Dedication or Elven Weapon Expertise.
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Feb 10, 2023 09:23
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MonsterEnvy posted:Demon Lords and other entities are considered to be Levels 26 to 30. Treerazer a not Quite Demon Lord is Level 25, so I wonder how he does against a Level 20 party of four. Well, the encounter rules note a single creature of party level +4 as "extreme-threat solo boss", so if the stats live up to that he would absolutely faceroll an unprepared level 20 party and probably still win against a specifically prepared level 20 party. More generally, a 5-level gap is around the territory where a creature can be expected to reliably dunk on a full squad of enemies, and a 10-level gap is the point where a creature of decent intelligence should be able to defeat a functionally infinite number of enemies. The bestiary entries actually work this in a pretty intuitive thematic way (at least until you get to the more esoteric monsters), considering that the benchmark for level 10 enemies is the adult red dragon and it makes perfect sense that one of those could mow dow any number of level 0 or 1 soldiers and would only be even marginally threatened by the enemies who are more powerful/talented than that. Roadie fucked around with this message at 11:38 on Feb 10, 2023 |
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Feb 10, 2023 11:33
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5e 20 level characters would definitely be less powerful. I killed a 17 level 5e character with a group of CR1 Yuan-ti.
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Feb 10, 2023 11:47
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YggdrasilTM posted:5e 20 level characters would definitely be less powerful. I killed a 17 level 5e character with a group of CR1 Yuan-ti. wait what? lol how many were there?
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Feb 10, 2023 11:48
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Finster Dexter posted:wait what? lol how many were there? they were 12, I think? To be fair, the party made a bunch of bad tactical decisions, and some very bad rolls. YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Feb 10, 2023 |
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Feb 10, 2023 12:03
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I know it's basic, but as a human monk player, if I ever get to level 9, I'm pretty sure Thaumaturge is going to be my free multiclass dedication. 2 extra damage to any enemy for the cost of 1 action, and I only have to use it once per enemy (even if I can only have it on one enemy at a time)? Simple as hell, but it sounds effective at least. Apply Weakness -> Flurry of Blows -> Mountain Stronghold to finish out the turn.
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Feb 10, 2023 15:12
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I don't know the passive archetype effect but that sounds a lot like single target panache. Just go swashbuckle wrestler. Everyone go swashbuckler wrestler
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Feb 10, 2023 15:23
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MonsterEnvy posted:Demon Lords and other entities are considered to be Levels 26 to 30. Treerazer a not Quite Demon Lord is Level 25, so I wonder how he does against a Level 20 party of four. I've run a party of 4 level 20s against a level 24 creature and it was pretty close. Definitely felt like even at level 20 a +4 creature is a 50% TPK. That said they were missing a fair amount of level 20 gear, only a few of them had apex items and like 1 major resilient runes bewteen the 4 of them etc. I think they all had major striking at that point at least though. So if they had more time at level 20 to max out their build with gear a fight against a level 25 creature would probably be similar. Past that seems iffy though with the way the math works.
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Feb 10, 2023 15:24
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Harold Fjord posted:I don't know the passive archetype effect but that sounds a lot like single target panache. Swashbuckler is a higher DC skill check (with worse consequences on failure, usually), for a smaller damage bonus.
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Feb 10, 2023 15:27
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Player in the game I just started running is a swashbuckler who gets panache through wit. I am going to require him to come up with all the bon mots he uses as he embarrasses enemies to death.
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Feb 10, 2023 15:28
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