War in Ukraine: thread feedback session open unttil Saturday (i'll regret this)

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Randarkman: Jul 18, 2011

TZer0 posted:

For instance: it claims that Jens Stoltenberg is both the supcom of NATO when he is in fact the Secretary General (also, there's two supcoms in NATO) and that he's an avowed anti-communist when he's the former leader and elected PM of the Norwegian Worker's Party (Arbeiderpartiet), now while they're not the best, I've not heard of him being some anti-communist hardliner.

It says that Jens Stoltenberg has worked closely with the CIA since the Vietnam war. Stoltenberg was 8 years old when the Tet offensive started.

Irony Be My Shield posted:

Lol yeah that transcript almost reads like a parody, especially the very obviously ESL bit at the start. The fact that Hersh presented that as genuine suggests that at the very least he isn't doing enough to confirm his sources are genuine.

Hersh is being trolled.

Randarkman fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Feb 9, 2023

# ? Feb 9, 2023 14:18

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# ? May 26, 2024 00:06

NoiseAnnoys: May 17, 2010

Randarkman posted:

It says that Jens Stoltenberg has worked closely with the CIA since the Vietnam war. Stoltenberg was 8 years old when the Tet offensive started.

just more of that super accurate reporting Sy Hersh is know for!

# ? Feb 9, 2023 14:42

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

steinrokkan posted:

Starlink not working past arbitrary lines (I e. Lines defined without UA input by an unknown entity) has been a known problem for months, it gets amplified whenever Ukraine makes an advance and suddenly their troops end up in territory under blackout. Given that, despite his gloating about providing starlink for free, musk has to be paid for his services by both UA fundraisers and US government, and that he's been systematically suppressing pro-Ukraine voices on Twitter, it's clear that he's only offering starlink for the profit motive, and only to the extent he's forced to by his MIC handlers.

I think there is a concern, not sure how realistic this is, that Russians could use Starlink, so they need to make sure there is a geofence around it. In any case it's not like the lines are moving by more than a few meters a day, and I doubt the geofence is precise to the meter (but maybe?). I also don't know if Russians have normal Internet, but I imagine their infrastructure in that region is only slightly less hosed than the Ukrainians'.

Also those quotes, lol:

"And that we�re pissing on the Russians?
AS: This is bad...Things are spooling up."

I literally don't even know what "we're pissing on the Russians" is supposed to mean, as a native American English speaker. Is that a saying that translates into another language? Things are "spooling up" also doesn't sound like anything a real human would say, but this transcript was generated before ChatGPT so I guess it was harder to fabricate transcripts in 2013. I wonder if it was written in ESL or if it was written by an 80 year old who thought thats how millennial / gen Z soldiers would speak in 2013.

How do you do, fellow kids?

Vvv: yeah, I�d heard spooling up, it just didn�t make sense to me in this context. Maybe for logistics people it�s a normal turn of phrase. "Pissing on" still doesn�t work though, unless we�re talking about R Kelly.

If it was just those two lines I�d probably shrug, but not when every line has something a little off.

Saladman fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Feb 9, 2023

# ? Feb 9, 2023 15:14

StumblyWumbly: Sep 12, 2007; Batmanticore!

"spooling up" is pretty common stuff from manufacturing, it's essentially the act of getting ready to produce a lot of stuff. As in "we're almost out of circuit boards so lets spool up the next run" "You can't get that in 3 days, we need to spool up first". But it's bizarre to think that this is some big top secret project that random solder is just texting about. There were international investigators taking a deep look into this, the facts are well established.

My favorite is "The Syrians struck a weapons cache (a legitimate military target)"

# ? Feb 9, 2023 15:32

Tomn: Aug 23, 2007; And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

I mean I don't know if it's common in that specific phrasing but it's not that hard to work out what someone is implying when they say they're pissing on someone. See also: "Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining," "Pissing all over the place," etc. That being said the overall sentence and conversation structure is pretty stilted in a way that allows you to imagine the participants T-posing as they speak. For instance those first couple of lines can be summed up as:

"We have a problem."
"What happened?"
"This is bad."
"Fine, let ME tell you what happened."

They're not talking to each other, they're a Greek chorus talking to the audience.

# ? Feb 9, 2023 15:40

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

I've heard both of those terms used but in British English. There are far more glaringly bad examples in that "conversation" though:

Security-Adviser: What happened? Is it the Trump ignoring the Intel and going to try to hit the Syrians?

AS: I don't know. None of this makes any sense. We KNOW that there was no chemical attack. The Syrians struck a weapons cache (a legitimate military target) and there was collateral damage.

AS: They're showing amazing restraint and been unbelievably calm.

SA: But I get the get the feeling are simply trying this approach for as long as they feel it might work.

etc

None of that is how two Americans speak to each other in a voice conversation.

# ? Feb 9, 2023 15:44

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

The biggest thing that stuck out to me was the distinct lack of ubiquitous swearing. That said: whatever. It's hearsay from a single unnamed source who somehow claims to have remembered a conversation between two other unnamed people word-for-word. In elementary school we used to call this "making things up", and the nuns didn't put up with it.

# ? Feb 9, 2023 15:46

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/09/politics/iranian-drones-modified-explosives-ukraine-infrastructure/index.html Russia seems to be modifying Shahed warheads to maximise surround havoc wrought, according to the example of an unexploded warhead extracted from Ukraine to UK in last October.

cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Feb 9, 2023

# ? Feb 9, 2023 17:09

Hannibal Rex: Feb 13, 2010

Randarkman posted:

Hersh is being trolled.

The Bruce Willis of investigative journalism. :smith:

# ? Feb 9, 2023 17:12

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

StumblyWumbly posted:

"spooling up" is pretty common stuff from manufacturing, it's essentially the act of getting ready to produce a lot of stuff. As in "we're almost out of circuit boards so lets spool up the next run" "You can't get that in 3 days, we need to spool up first". But it's bizarre to think that this is some big top secret project that random solder is just texting about. There were international investigators taking a deep look into this, the facts are well established.

My favorite is "The Syrians struck a weapons cache (a legitimate military target)"

It's more that in conversation, people would say that 'this is heating up'. No smoking gun or anything, but just more proof that it wasn't written by an American.

The fact that Hersh was fooled by this is pretty laughable.

# ? Feb 9, 2023 17:49

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

Kchama posted:

It's more that in conversation, people would say that 'this is heating up'. No smoking gun or anything, but just more proof that it wasn't written by an American.

The fact that Hersh was fooled by this is pretty laughable.

While looking for any online analysis of it, and how many times "things are spooling up" have ever been said on Google (464 times, the vast majority of which are referring to manufacturing lines), I found this blog post ��and only this blog post about it, which references our very own Brown Moses. It also brings up facts for why the statement is bullshit, rather than our *~*feelings*~* about how human beings actually speak to one another. Particularly, that the strike times he mentions are an hour and a half off from when they actually happened.

https://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2017/06/28/seymour-hershs-jumbo-sized-poo poo-sandwich/

~~Also I just realized this is NOT the Middle East thread so... I'll stop derailing.~~

VV: Holy poo poo, good catch.

Saladman fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Feb 9, 2023

# ? Feb 9, 2023 18:27

Tomn: Aug 23, 2007; And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

Saladman posted:

https://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2017/06/28/seymour-hershs-jumbo-sized-poo poo-sandwich/

Funnily enough, this does tie back in with a weird twist.

See, in the original Nordstream article almost the entire thing is based on a single anonymous source, but he does specifically quote one person:

quote:

To avoid this, the sonar buoy, once in place, would emit a sequence of unique low frequency tonal sounds�much like those emitted by a flute or a piano�that would be recognized by the timing device and, after a pre-set hours of delay, trigger the explosives. (�You want a signal that is robust enough so that no other signal could accidentally send a pulse that detonated the explosives,� I was told by Dr. Theodore Postol, professor emeritus of science, technology and national security policy at MIT. Postol, who has served as the science adviser to the Pentagon�s Chief of Naval Operations, said the issue facing the group in Norway because of Biden�s delay was one of chance: �The longer the explosives are in the water the greater risk there would be of a random signal that would launch the bombs.�)

So who is Dr. Postol? Well, curiously enough in the linked post above the guy mentions a certain Professor Theodore Postol, who was apparently last seen busy arguing that Assad hadn't used chemical weapons. Apparently this isn't the first time the guy has been quoted for things like this, as Bellingcat notes:

quote:

His status at MIT has made him particularly popular with conspiracy theorists who cite his work and credentials when promoting their false flag theories around the attack.

I'm sure it's pure coincidence that the two happened to cross paths again.

# ? Feb 9, 2023 18:49

Mr. Apollo: Nov 8, 2000

SpaceX confirms they have sometimes blocked Ukrainian access to Starlink.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/09/politics/spacex-ukrainian-troops-satellite-technology/index.html

quote:

Speaking with reporters after, Shotwell argued that Starlink had sent units to Ukraine to �keep the banks going, hospitals, keep families connected.�

�We know the military is using them for comms, and that�s OK,� Shotwell added. �But our intent was never to have them use it for offensive purposes.�

Seems a bit silly to act shocked that a country currently involved in a war would use communication devices during offensive operations. I guess Elon was really upset about the reaction to his Twitter poll "peace plans".

# ? Feb 9, 2023 18:58

Shooting Blanks: Jun 6, 2007; Real bullets mess up how cool this thing looks.

-Blade

Mr. Apollo posted:

SpaceX confirms they have sometimes blocked Ukrainian access to Starlink.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/09/politics/spacex-ukrainian-troops-satellite-technology/index.html

Seems a bit silly to act shocked that a country currently involved in a war would use communication devices during offensive operations. I guess Elon was really upset about the reaction to his Twitter poll "peace plans".

Ukraine forgot to activate that feature.

# ? Feb 9, 2023 19:24

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Tomn posted:

Funnily enough, this does tie back in with a weird twist.

See, in the original Nordstream article almost the entire thing is based on a single anonymous source, but he does specifically quote one person:

So who is Dr. Postol? Well, curiously enough in the linked post above the guy mentions a certain Professor Theodore Postol, who was apparently last seen busy arguing that Assad hadn't used chemical weapons. Apparently this isn't the first time the guy has been quoted for things like this, as Bellingcat notes:

I'm sure it's pure coincidence that the two happened to cross paths again.

Wait until you see who he recommends people should talk to about chemical weapons alongside Ted Postol:

# ? Feb 9, 2023 20:05

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Ukraine�s minister of digital transformations said about two hours ago that business is as usual with Starlink. https://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2023/02/9/7388696/

# ? Feb 9, 2023 20:29

Moon Slayer: Jun 19, 2007

Brown Moses posted:

Wait until you see who he recommends people should talk to about chemical weapons alongside Ted Postol:

You accidentally emailed a vampire. :ohdear:

# ? Feb 9, 2023 20:58

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

Brown Moses posted:

Wait until you see who he recommends people should talk to about chemical weapons alongside Ted Postol:

One of the less significant, but still regrettable consequences of this invasion is that I had to learn who Scott Ritter was. And of course, I learned of his existence from Russian propaganda quoting him extensively.

# ? Feb 9, 2023 21:01

beer_war: Mar 10, 2005

Moon Slayer posted:

You accidentally emailed a vampire.

Charles Davis did, but still, lol.

# ? Feb 9, 2023 21:02

Willo567: Feb 5, 2015; Cheating helped me fail the test and stay on the show.

So has Britain actually committed to sending long-range missiles to Ukraine yet? I've heard that Sunak was saying that Ukraine needed them, but don't know if anything is actually official.

All I could find was this article (sorry it's click-baity)
https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1623792334344265731

Willo567 fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Feb 9, 2023

# ? Feb 9, 2023 23:32

Moon Slayer: Jun 19, 2007

Speaking of missiles:

Washington Post posted:

Ukraine�s rocket campaign reliant on U.S. precision targeting, officials say
Ukrainian officials say that they almost never launch HIMARS rounds without detailed coordinates provided by U.S. military personnel situated elsewhere in Europe

KYIV, Ukraine � Ukrainian officials say they require coordinates provided or confirmed by the United States and its allies for the vast majority of strikes using its advanced U.S.-provided rocket systems, a previously undisclosed practice that reveals a deeper and more operationally active role for the Pentagon in the war.

The disclosure, confirmed by three senior Ukrainian officials and a senior U.S. official, comes after months of Kyiv�s forces pounding Russian targets � including headquarters, ammunition depots and barracks � on Ukrainian soil with the U.S.-provided High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, or HIMARS, and other similar precision-guided weapons such as the M270 multiple-launch rocket system.

One senior Ukrainian official said Ukrainian forces almost never launch the advanced weapons without specific coordinates provided by U.S. military personnel from a base elsewhere in Europe. Ukrainian officials say this process should give Washington confidence about providing Kyiv with longer-range weapons.

A senior U.S. official � who like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue � acknowledged the key American role in the campaign and said that the targeting assistance served to ensure accuracy and conserve limited stores of ammunition for maximum effectiveness. The official said that Ukraine does not seek approval from the United States on what to strike and routinely targets Russian forces on their own with other weapons. The U.S. provides coordinates and precise targeting information solely in an advisory role, the official said.

The GPS-guided strikes have driven Moscow�s forces back on the battlefield and been celebrated as a key factor in Kyiv�s underdog attempt to stave off the nearly year-old Russian assault. When President Volodymyr Zelensky visited the White House in December, he gave President Biden a military medal that had been approved for meritorious service by the commander of a Ukrainian HIMARS unit.

The issue is sensitive for the U.S. government, which has cast itself as a nonbelligerent friend to the government in Kyiv as it fights for its sovereignty and survival. The Kremlin has countered by repeatedly accusing the United States and its NATO allies of fighting a proxy war in Ukraine.

Senior Pentagon officials declined for days to answer questions about whether and how they provide coordinates for the strikes, citing concerns about operational security. They instead provided a statement highlighting the limitations of American involvement.

�We have long acknowledged that we share intelligence with Ukraine to assist them in defending their country against Russian aggression, and we have optimized over time how we share information to be able to support their requests and their targeting processes at improved speed and scale,� Brig. Gen. Patrick Ryder, a Pentagon spokesman, said in the statement. �The Ukrainians are responsible for finding targets, prioritizing them and then ultimately deciding which ones to engage. The U.S. does not approve targets, nor are we involved in the selection or engagement of targets.�

The senior Ukrainian official described the targeting process, generally: Ukrainian military personnel identify targets they want to hit, and in which location, and that information is then sent up to senior commanders, who then relay the request to U.S. partners for more accurate coordinates. The Americans do not always provide the requested coordinates, the official said, in which case the Ukrainian troops do not fire.

Ukraine could carry out strikes without U.S. help but because Kyiv doesn�t want to waste valuable ammunition and miss, it usually chooses not to strike without U.S. confirmation, the official said, adding that there are no complaints about the process.

For months now, the Ukrainian government has been lobbying Washington for longer-range precision weapons.

Kyiv currently possesses HIMARS launchers and a similar weapon, the M270 multiple-launch rocket system, each of which fire a U.S.-made rocket that can travel up to 50 miles.

Ukrainian officials also have sought the Army Tactical Missile System, or ATACMS, a munition that can be fired from the same launcher and travel up to 185 miles. Biden administration officials have declined to provide that weapon, which is in limited supply and seen by senior U.S. officials as an escalation that could provoke Russia and drag the United States directly into the war.

Kyiv has pledged that it would not use the longer-range missile to strike across the border inside Russia.

The senior Ukrainian official contended that the Ukrainian military would face the same limitations it does now with conventional HIMARS rounds if they received ATACMS, with Ukraine still dependent on U.S. targeting coordinates.

�You�re controlling every shot anyway, so when you say, �We�re afraid that you�re going to use it for some other purposes,� well, we can�t do it even if we want to,� the senior official said.

The senior U.S. official disputed the characterization. It is �not true,� the U.S. official said, that �Ukrainians run targets by us for approval.�

Ukrainian military officials have said that Russian forces have moved back their ammunition stocks out of HIMARS range, which has led to a steep decline in the daily bombardment of Ukrainian cities and soldiers but also reduced Kyiv�s ability to target Moscow�s arsenal. With ATACMS, the Ukrainians would likely target Russian military installations in Crimea, which Russia invaded and annexed illegally in 2014.

The United States also recently approved the purchase and delivery of another GPS-guided munition, the ground-launched, small-diameter bomb, or GLSDB, that can travel more than 90 miles and be launched from HIMARS and similar launchers. The round was initially designed to be fired from aircraft, but has been repurposed.

The head of the Ukrainian military�s missile forces and artillery training, Maj. Gen. Andriy Malinovsky, told The Washington Post in an interview in October that Ukraine�s Western allies had confirmed coordinates for targets ahead of the Kharkiv counteroffensive.

The partners had worked out a process, he said, with Ukraine receiving precise coordinates to ensure they wouldn�t miss their mark with multiple-launch rocket artillery systems as the rapid counteroffensive caught Russian forces unprepared. The targeting information also provided a workaround for when Russian signal-jamming prevented aerial drone reconnaissance on the battlefield, Malinovsky said.

�According to our maps and software, a point will have one set of coordinates,� Malinovsky said. �But when we give this target to partners for analysis, the coordinates are different. Why? Because the Americans and NATO countries have access to military satellites.�

�We�re all basically always online,� he added. �They immediately get us the coordinates and we then fire the MLRS right away.�

A third Ukrainian official confirmed that targeting all goes through an American installation on NATO soil and described the process as �very fast.� The Washington Post is withholding the name of the base at the request of U.S. officials who cited security concerns.

Moon Slayer fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Feb 10, 2023

# ? Feb 10, 2023 00:09

Sekenr: Dec 12, 2013

There is a dude Mikhasyuk, former member of Kalinovskiy company (Belarusian volunteers fighting for Ukraine) who raised a bunch of questions of how Belarusian volunteers are being treated after discharge. Often left with nothing upon discharge with plain illegal status, not even residence permit. And now a thing that even Ukranian servicemen face (Belarusians to even harder extent) being refused jobs for fear of PTSD, general unprotectedness in civil life and lack of options where to even turn to protest when treated unfairly.

https://twitter.com/mihasyukevgen/status/1623773891112931328?t=zzew53EI9qeNZW47tRFm1A&s=19

# ? Feb 10, 2023 00:35

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-08/germany-pressures-eu-allies-to-send-leopard-2-tanks-to-ukraine

Germany is complaining that European supply of Leopard 2 tanks may fall short of even the initial announcement, due to not many other countries talking numbers. This is starting to become quite funny, in some mildly existential way.

:nms:

as as poo poo server, but clean post � https://t.me/milinfolive/96760 AFU seems to have captured enough Krasnopol' (Russian Excalibur equivalent) munitions during the Kharkiv counter-offensive to be using it in combat.

cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Feb 10, 2023

# ? Feb 10, 2023 01:00

Moon Slayer: Jun 19, 2007

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1623868121655148548

# ? Feb 10, 2023 03:22

Charlz Guybon: Nov 16, 2010

Battles are raging right now
https://twitter.com/JominiW/status/1623857574679392257

# ? Feb 10, 2023 04:22

GhostofJohnMuir: Aug 14, 2014; anime is not good

does timing the new offensive on the anniversary of the old offensive risk running into the exact same issue where if you aren't able to decisively achieve your operational objectives in a month suddenly your frontline combat units have an extended line of communication running through a sea of mud?

# ? Feb 10, 2023 06:06

Crow Buddy: Oct 30, 2019; Guillotines?!? We don't need no stinking guillotines!

cinci zoo sniper posted:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-08/germany-pressures-eu-allies-to-send-leopard-2-tanks-to-ukraine

Germany is complaining that European supply of Leopard 2 tanks may fall short of even the initial announcement, due to not many other countries talking numbers. This is starting to become quite funny, in some mildly existential way.

as as poo poo server, but clean post � https://t.me/milinfolive/96760 AFU seems to have captured enough Krasnopol' (Russian Excalibur equivalent) munitions during the Kharkiv counter-offensive to be using it in combat.

I understand that maintenance is expensive, and the first thing cut when Russia didn't invade for 60 years, but this is a real indictment of German armour.

What were they making them from, old Soviet tires?

# ? Feb 10, 2023 06:13

Flavahbeast: Jul 21, 2001

Flavahbeast posted:

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/spacex-curbed-ukraines-use-starlink-internet-drones-company-president-2023-02-09/

Curious what the details are and when this went into effect, blinding Ukraine's uav scouts right before a big projected Russian offensive would be a wild move on Elon's part

Just an update on this, Ukraine IT minister Fedorov says there are currently no issues with Starlink operation

https://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2023/02/9/7388696/

# ? Feb 10, 2023 06:21

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

Paladinus posted:

One of the less significant, but still regrettable consequences of this invasion is that I had to learn who Scott Ritter was. And of course, I learned of his existence from Russian propaganda quoting him extensively.

I saw a talk he gave in person once and it was, with zero exaggeration, the worst speech I have ever seen and was actively the opposite of inspiring in any way. He basically explained how he got the weapons inspection job by being an alcoholic in college.

A few months later he was arrested for trying to gently caress kids for the first of what would eventually be many times.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Feb 10, 2023

# ? Feb 10, 2023 06:23

lifetime supply of Pocky: Aug 19, 2003

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

does timing the new offensive on the anniversary of the old offensive risk running into the exact same issue where if you aren't able to decisively achieve your operational objectives in a month suddenly your frontline combat units have an extended line of communication running through a sea of mud?

that would require them to actually make gains

# ? Feb 10, 2023 06:28

Dick Ripple: May 19, 2021

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

does timing the new offensive on the anniversary of the old offensive risk running into the exact same issue where if you aren't able to decisively achieve your operational objectives in a month suddenly your frontline combat units have an extended line of communication running through a sea of mud?

I do not think the current 'Offensive' goals are ambitious as to those from 1 year ago. Until Russia is able to concentrate enough force close to the front line as possible, we will probably continue to see many of these small pushes by Russian forces in maybe the hope that something breaks in regards to the Ukrainian lines, how they intend to exploit those breaks is another question. The Ukrainians have a similiar problem, as Russian artilley continues to be effective.

Even with sending western MBTs to Ukraine, I am still having trouble seeing any significant breakthroughs (unless there are major collapses of moral) without one side or the other having effective air superiority. Even having local superiority could effectively hinder or even stop reserve forces from reinforcing any collapses in the line leading to actual meaningful gains. So what comes first, Russian collapse of moral or NATO sending planes to Ukraine?

# ? Feb 10, 2023 06:31

ChaseSP: Mar 25, 2013

Both sides will grind each other down until one is ground down more than the other to allow for a sudden push, not having air power or superiority makes this a long drawn out process especially with heavy fortification on one side.

# ? Feb 10, 2023 08:11

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

Brown Moses posted:

Wait until you see who he recommends people should talk to about chemical weapons alongside Ted Postol:

Ah yes Scott "the Donbas cauldron will go down as one of the best planned deception campaigns in history" Ritter

# ? Feb 10, 2023 08:18

spankmeister: Jun 15, 2008

https://twitter.com/bbcstever/status/1623939831091920897

An interesting piece on what life is like in Belgorod at the moment. Looks like a lot of people are drinking the kool-aid and are being made to be afraid of Ukraine invading.

# ? Feb 10, 2023 08:24

Random Integer: Oct 7, 2010

Crow Buddy posted:

I understand that maintenance is expensive, and the first thing cut when Russia didn't invade for 60 years, but this is a real indictment of German armour.

What were they making them from, old Soviet tires?

It's not really an indictment of German armour that a bunch of countries didn't bother maintaining their tanks for the past 30 years.

Also seems like a lot of countries were quite happy when they could complain about Germany holding things up and not so happy now they're expected to do something.

# ? Feb 10, 2023 08:56

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Yeah, pretty much anything will fall apart in a couple of years if you leave it standing in a rickety shed in aunt Myrna's backyard to save on servicing costs... It's sad and alarming that new depths of ineptitude and corruption are still being uncovered in European defense arrangements an entire year since the invasion.

# ? Feb 10, 2023 09:13

NoiseAnnoys: May 17, 2010

underscoring some tensions here, it looks like Hungary's burning a lot of bridges thanks to orban being a tinpot putin wannabe, so the Visegrad group is teetering on the edge of dissolution.

https://www.seznamzpravy.cz/clanek/zahranicni-stredni-evropa-ve-visegradu-to-dal-skripe-hada-se-kvuli-putinovu-trojskemu-koni-225414

Poland is leading the way, but slovakia and the czech republic are also getting to the point of possibly dissolving the group, or maintaining/reforming it, but without hungary. it probably doesn't seem like a big deal to outsiders, but considering how intertwined the 4's economies and institutions are, it's pretty shocking.

NoiseAnnoys fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Feb 10, 2023

# ? Feb 10, 2023 09:25

Antigravitas: Dec 8, 2019; Die Rettung fuer die Landwirte:

I will personally devour an entire KF-51 MBT (If I can acquire one) if Poland stops protecting Hungary from consequences at the EU level.

Reforming Visegrad without Hungary is a small step. Real coercive power comes from rescinding Hungary's voting rights in the EU.

cinci zoo sniper posted:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-08/germany-pressures-eu-allies-to-send-leopard-2-tanks-to-ukraine

Germany is complaining that European supply of Leopard 2 tanks may fall short of even the initial announcement, due to not many other countries talking numbers. This is starting to become quite funny, in some mildly existential way.

�berraschtes_pikachu.apng (slowly zooming in)

# ? Feb 10, 2023 10:24

Dick Ripple: May 19, 2021

Antigravitas posted:

Real coercive power comes from rescinding Hungary's voting rights in the EU.

No clancy chat.

The only possible silver lining is that Hungary will not be led by Orban forever, and hopefully the next regime is more EU centric. It does seem like there are conversations going on behind the seems in regards to Orbans undying love for Putin, and that he should probably start thinking about how that is going to effect him and his future. Or (clancy chat territory) is that the EU is rather sly and working with Orban to possibly feed/gather information to and from the Kremlin, and that this is all a ploy. Unfortunately the EU is the EU and that most likely is not the case.

# ? Feb 10, 2023 10:36

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# ? May 26, 2024 00:06

Hannibal Rex: Feb 13, 2010

https://twitter.com/CinC_AFU/status/1623979433911615492?t=QwwkNYDJ4P5mOc9CxXyvTA&s=19

Did we ever get more details about how/why the missile impact in Poland happened? This looks like Russia is deliberately routing cruise missiles across neighboring states now.

If Ukraine intercepts it, they may get a repeat of the Polish incident. If they wait, they have a lower chance to intercept successfully.

# ? Feb 10, 2023 11:03

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > War in Ukraine: thread feedback session open unttil Saturday (i'll regret this)

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