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Youremother posted:Tony is unquestionably a bad guy but he's also clearly dealing with some kind of untreated and unacknowledged mental disorder. Part of the issue is there doesn't seem to be any effort from literally any of the cast to address the mental issue part. It's just "lol welp he's just gonna Be Like That Forever, Annie you'll just have to deal with it, literally nothing we can do." It's loving insulting not only for people who are victims of parental abuse and/or neglect but also for anyone who can relate to Tony's issues because it's saying "you can't do anything about your mental problems, just give up on making them better and hope your loved ones you hosed over forgive you unconditionally."
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Feb 10, 2023 08:43
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She seems kinda manic.
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Feb 10, 2023 09:06
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Youremother posted:Hardest thing in the world is writing a sympathetic abusive parent without making it seem like you're forgiving them for their abuse. Tony is unquestionably a bad guy but he's also clearly dealing with some kind of untreated and unacknowledged mental disorder. Yes, but I think people would be a tiny bit more forgiving if that disorder was also portrayed a bit organically. It's certainly reminiscent of autism or maybe social anxiety but the "can only talk to one person at a time, ever" seems like an excuse to treat it as a geas where nothing can be done. I guess that description feels true to how Annie would experience it, as a bunch of arbitrary rules she has to live with, but it really hurts how much empathy you're willing to extend to Tony.
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Feb 10, 2023 09:20
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Funnily enough, I was trying to think of any media I'd read with the "Widowed parent abandons daughter for several years due to 'anxiety that makes it impossible to talk with those they love', with the narrative centered around the daughter joining a school. After having long denied her own emotional needs, the daughter gains emotional support from a technologically adept best friend. This is followed by said parent bursting back into the scene with the framing that their anxiety issues actually justify the abandonment and they get unconditionally forgiven" plot. The only one I could come up with was actually a very popular manga that predates Gunnerkriggby a few years (and, rather hilariously, said anxiety angle was ALSO taken badly by the audience and was changed drastically on anime adapation). ... Also ugh, another page of Annie being an observing bystander to other people doing things in the comic. Kat seems really deranged and that could be a fun plot bit, but Annie's sheer passivity in the comic is getting to me.
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Feb 10, 2023 09:32
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It's wild that there's something else that had that plot point, what series was it?
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Feb 10, 2023 09:34
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Begemot posted:It's wild that there's something else that had that plot point, what series was it? Angelic Layer, a somewhat generic 1999 teen fighting tournament manga. I wouldn't recommend it, it's not great, it's just something I read as a teen. But the plot point is legitimately "The self-loathing mother has anxiety that prevents her from talking to the ones she loves, she abandons her daughter at a young age due to this, with said daughter developing a complex where she refuses to discuss it/denies being sad about it/justifies it as the mother must be having good reasons." I remember it because I was introduced to the series through the anime where they changed it to be that the mother had become seriously physically disabled and didn't want her daughter to face discrimination over it or be burdened by her, only to go back and read the manga where the reveal was well.. Anxiety hard.
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Feb 10, 2023 09:42
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I agree Kat looks a little unhinged: But I have trouble believing my assessment of panels' intended emotional portrayal is correct after this was shown to be super normal and good actually: 
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Feb 10, 2023 09:51
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Come to think of it, the "threw a nuke when he meant to throw a grenade" thing also happened in a different, more recent manga series. In Assassination Classroom, the protagonist's mother is revealed to be incredibly abusive and almost psychotic. Demanding that he cross dress for and dress androgynously because she wanted a daughter. Also demanding that he sacrifice everything for academic goals, because her parents had some the same to her. The difference is that the resolution went the opposite way. After like one story arc, she just became normal and was a good mom, suddenly. I remember people being angry and disappointed, thinking it was editorial interference, but it really did clash with the comedic sci-fi action tone of the rest of the series.
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Feb 10, 2023 10:15
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YaketySass posted:Yes, but I think people would be a tiny bit more forgiving if that disorder was also portrayed a bit organically. It's certainly reminiscent of autism or maybe social anxiety but the "can only talk to one person at a time, ever" seems like an excuse to treat it as a geas where nothing can be done. I guess that description feels true to how Annie would experience it, as a bunch of arbitrary rules she has to live with, but it really hurts how much empathy you're willing to extend to Tony. I was curious and checked with a good friend of mine that has a degree in psychology, and according to them at least this sort of thing is totally possible and not wholly unrealistic. It definitely could have been portrayed more organically or believably, though. skaianDestiny posted:Part of the issue is there doesn't seem to be any effort from literally any of the cast to address the mental issue part. It's just "lol welp he's just gonna Be Like That Forever, Annie you'll just have to deal with it, literally nothing we can do." It's loving insulting not only for people who are victims of parental abuse and/or neglect but also for anyone who can relate to Tony's issues because it's saying "you can't do anything about your mental problems, just give up on making them better and hope your loved ones you hosed over forgive you unconditionally." I think it also would have been quite easy to include a chapter about Tony trying to improve his relationship with Annie, even if he failed. Kat has already been shown to have a decent relationship with him, have a chapter from her perspective where she tries to help Tony out! I also wouldn't be surprised if Kat were the type to look at a complex mental health issue as a problem with a clear solution that just needs to be found. This could help make Tony more sympathetic while also helping answer questions I see brought up. Why doesn't he just write a letter to Annie? Show him trying but his mental block still "counts" that as "talking to her" so he can't. Why doesn't he have Kat relay a message for him? Same deal. Have Kat eventually catch on, and Tony opens up to her about how much he wants to communicate with Annie and how bad he feels about it etc. Kat can be kind of underhanded with tech, so maybe have her secretly record his confession then be like "hey so I recorded all that, how about I show it to Annie? Your block didn't get in the way cus you didn't know you were talking to her!" or something. This also would kind of set up Kat as a more believable "maybe turns into a villain?" kind of character, since that's what the current arc seems to be trying to imply.
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Feb 10, 2023 15:38
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skaianDestiny posted:Part of the issue is there doesn't seem to be any effort from literally any of the cast to address the mental issue part. YaketySass posted:Yes, but I think people would be a tiny bit more forgiving if that disorder was also portrayed a bit organically. 100% my issue with it too. I actually liked The Mind Cage because I thought it was going to be the start of a "humanization arc" with Tony, but all of his self-improvement had happened off screen (natch) and he's since been shoved out of the picture in favor of all the amazing new plot going on. Too much stuff going on to focus on character development!
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Feb 10, 2023 15:55
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CodfishCartographer posted:I think it also would have been quite easy to include a chapter about Tony trying to improve his relationship with Annie, even if he failed.
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Feb 10, 2023 17:16
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Youremother posted:100% my issue with it too. I actually liked The Mind Cage because I thought it was going to be the start of a "humanization arc" with Tony, but all of his self-improvement had happened off screen (natch) and he's since been shoved out of the picture in favor of all the amazing new plot going on. Too much stuff going on to focus on character development! I wonder if this comes down to how poorly mind cage was received. Maybe he scrapped everything at that point
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Feb 10, 2023 18:33
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we already did basically all of this. mr donlan carried her blinkerstone to the conversation with tony, she heard exactly all of this. the fact that no one in the thread even seems to remember that, tells me how badly the impact of it missed. e: look, here's effort being made e2: the problem with the narrative is this page. her reaction is not just continued anger, but even worse anger. it's a perfectly valid reaction to have, but it's intensifying the situation, immediately followed by complete and utter deflation of that rising anger, followed by an unearned complete 180 on that anger. Niavmai fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Feb 10, 2023 |
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Feb 10, 2023 18:36
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Niavmai posted:we already did basically all of this. mr donlan carried her blinkerstone to the conversation with tony, she heard exactly all of this. I totally remember that, but it was not him trying to improve. It was him lamenting that he couldn't connect with his daughter, but it was not him actually making any effort to fix the problem. e: Just saw your edit, yeah he did admittedly seem to try there. I think that with how badly he abused her though, that focusing on that a bit more would have been valuable. Show him really putting in the effort - in that scene it was Annie who initiated things and drove it along, and we didn't get any kind of internal viewpoint with how Tony experienced the situation. CodfishCartographer fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Feb 10, 2023 |
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Feb 10, 2023 18:44
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Niavmai posted:we already did basically all of this. mr donlan carried her blinkerstone to the conversation with tony, she heard exactly all of this.  he had his reasons  " it ends with " he has his reasons "
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Feb 10, 2023 18:49
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CodfishCartographer posted:I totally remember that, but it was not him trying to improve. It was him lamenting that he couldn't connect with his daughter, but it was not him actually making any effort to fix the problem. lol sorry, i'm really bad about hitting the post button before getting my entire thought down. Splicer posted:Mind Cage is a rehash of Annie and the Fire except instead of ending with " exactly this in my second edit, yeah. her perspective changes for absolutely no reason.
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Feb 10, 2023 18:50
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Niavmai posted:exactly this in my second edit, yeah. her perspective changes for absolutely no reason. response is framed as a bad thing, a symptom of how incredibly unhealthily meat Annie is dealing with things. In MC it's displayed as an indicator of how smart and mature she's being. Her attitude didn't change, the comic's framing of it did.
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Feb 10, 2023 18:56
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Splicer posted:Not quite though. In AatF the Also, in Mindcage she stopped saying out loud things like "I'm big and dumb, compared to my new classmates". Who knows what she thinks now. edit: to be fair, Court Annie seemed happy to be useful in the aftermath of Loup attack, but if she ever returns to a more mundane life... Okay, the way things are shaping up now that might not actually happen huh isasphere fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Feb 10, 2023 |
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Feb 10, 2023 19:00
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The comments made me think this was mind cage Friday page just some filler for next scene nothing notable.
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Feb 10, 2023 19:02
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Splicer posted:Not quite though. In AatF the In retrospect, I'm not sure if that was being framed as a bad thing. We may interpret it that way, but the Mind Cage sort of recontextualizes it into "the fire was being unreasonable, he did have his reasons". Along with the bit in the forest where she burns Ysengrim's arm, you can interpret her fire self not as "Annie's true emotions being suppressed" but instead "Annie's irrational anger being kept under proper control".
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Feb 10, 2023 19:21
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Annie gonna be ushering a third loved one to the afterlife after this goes awry...
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Feb 10, 2023 21:10
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Also when did Paz learn about surgical procedures? I thought she only worked on the animal-rearing side of laboratory experiments for the Court. Not bashing, legitimate question, I'm forgetting bits of the comic.
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Feb 10, 2023 21:30
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Paz could very well have microchipped some of the animals. Kat only said it need to go in her neck at first, but later said "right here" while seemingly pointing at her spine. If it's only supposed to be spine-adjacent, I guess Paz might somewhat plausibly be able to do it fine? If it is supposed to be implanted inside her spine, 
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Feb 10, 2023 22:35
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Is Paz giving Annie the stinkeye here? Is she still not over the Norn stuff
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Feb 10, 2023 23:41
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dyzzy posted:Is Paz giving Annie the stinkeye here? Is she still not over the Norn stuff Maybe she thinks Annie will make things difficult somehow? Or maybe she's trying to figure out Annie's thoughts (or decide whether she should blame Annie) given this turn of events. Though I'd think Paz wouldn't be so onboard with this. Given she didn't appreciate Kat tech obsessions before when she goes all in on something like she did with the Annie situation. But who needs consistent characterization I guess. Maybe one of them will decide to do it and the other is going to refuse and there is going to be some drama. Or they'll do it with Paz taking the lead, then it goes wrong and Paz blames Annie for it. But hey, something is indeed happening and it's actually being shown on page. So there is that.
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Feb 10, 2023 23:56
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dyzzy posted:Is Paz giving Annie the stinkeye here? Is she still not over the Norn stuff I read it as Paz wanting to see if Annie would be the voice of reason and say anything about how incredibly dangerous this is, and that they really shouldn't do it, but then Annie says nothing (the panel with "..."). Looks like one of those situations where one friend proposes something risky and the rest of the group all individually think it's possibly a bad idea but no one wants to be the one to give a hard No, so they check if anyone else would back them up in their protests before reluctantly saying yes.
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Feb 11, 2023 00:15
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isasphere posted:I read it as Paz wanting to see if Annie would be the voice of reason and say anything about how incredibly dangerous this is, and that they really shouldn't do it, but then Annie says nothing (the panel with "..."). I'm not sure if that's supposed to be "Paz looks at Annie to say something" or if it's supposed to be "Paz facing Kat, turns to look at the tools, then glances back at Kat" and Annie just happens to be both of them. It's honestly hard to tell because Paz starts off facing facing Kat, then a bunch of closeups on her hand and face, then her and Kat are side by side and Annie is behind them both.
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Feb 11, 2023 01:25
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Paz knowing a bit about this didn't strike me as too strange because she helps with animal testing, and I know at least some of that work is dissecting them after the fact (or doing things like taking thin slices of their brain and suspending them in solution then looking for abnormalities - have a friend who does work like this for her PHD). I don't know if she's necessarily the one who does any of that - it's a bit ambiguous - but it makes sense that she'd want to know about the process either way because she talked about wanting to make things better and more comfortable for the animals involved. Of course, it's a huge leap to assume whatever you know of animal dissection will apply to human surgery, buuuuut...
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Feb 11, 2023 11:10
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Tiny Myers posted:Paz knowing a bit about this didn't strike me as too strange because she helps with animal testing, and I know at least some of that work is dissecting them after the fact (or doing things like taking thin slices of their brain and suspending them in solution then looking for abnormalities - have a friend who does work like this for her PHD). I don't know if she's necessarily the one who does any of that - it's a bit ambiguous - but it makes sense that she'd want to know about the process either way because she talked about wanting to make things better and more comfortable for the animals involved. Paz: "Drop her in the Polytron and reduce her to a soup-like homogenate"
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Feb 11, 2023 11:46
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Either that, or we're about to see a ~sudden twist~ revealing Paz to have been a mole all along and either steals the chip while Kat's sedated or something something mind control. But yeah, I don't see why Paz wouldn't know about minor medical treatments from dealing with animals, I'm sure she's had to make minor incisions because something got stuck in an animal's hoof or had to drain an infected wound.
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Feb 11, 2023 14:06
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Everyone in Annie's circle (except Annie herself) is at the very least pretty academically talented, so it's not hard to believe that Paz has an advanced grasp of mammalian anatomy, and at least a good textbook knowledge of human anatomy in specific. We are just meant to accept that this means she can operate like a professional surgeon in the same way we accept that Kat has skipped over any sort of animal testing in order to Neuralink her own brain: because comic book science just works that way.
usenet celeb 1992 fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Feb 11, 2023 |
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Feb 11, 2023 16:21
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i dont believe we're supposed to be coming out of the comic assuming that this will be a good idea
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Feb 11, 2023 16:44
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Catgirl Al Capone posted:i dont believe we're supposed to be coming out of the comic assuming that this will be a good idea we've assumed that before to our peril
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Feb 11, 2023 16:48
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I'm just assuming that "Too Far" in this context means that it Works Too Well and not that it gives her uncontrollable seizures or a fatal infection.
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Feb 11, 2023 17:08
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uh yeah, if the robots start getting the angel's thoughts intrusively they might get worse
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Feb 13, 2023 03:30
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50/50 chance that Kat ends up thinking and talking like a computer, or she goes into a coma and her consciousness is spread among the dead robots. Or it turns out that her consciousness was inside boxbot all along, and we're all terrible people for laughing at poor old boxbot.
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Feb 13, 2023 05:29
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Grognan posted:uh yeah, if the robots start getting the angel's thoughts intrusively they might get worse Now all the robots really wanna make Paz happy and give her lots of things  Obviously something bad is going to happen, I'm just not clear what. Excited to see what that ends up being, tbh.
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Feb 13, 2023 09:46
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If he tries to redeem Boxbot I'm done with this poo poo
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Feb 13, 2023 10:22
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Boxbot redemption arc Loup redemption arc Which of these is more dire?
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Feb 13, 2023 12:27
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“You’re going to feel a little coldness first” she tells the person who thought up the operation.
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Feb 13, 2023 13:19
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