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Bucky Fullminster posted:In this context at least (and probably a few others unfortunately) it seems to be short hand for "violently strict disciplinarian", as opposed to the classic political definition. It's been used by people this way in the US at least for awhile so I can see how they would miss it, the nebulous concept of "freedom" is so worshipped here by so many that often "fascism" = "a person in charge said something that I don't like" and not the political platform or way of governing. But I didn't get a "both sides are bad" vibe from these two episodes at all. The revolutionary side wasn't even close to as bad as FEDRA. They fell under the leadership of someone whom, at first we see as well, not GOOD, but I get why someone who was just instrumental in overthrowing FEDRA there and lost as many people as she did and so on would be at that point. But her own personal focus on revenge ended up wrecking everything and her second in command was too weak to do anything about it. Like I feel like if they hadn't seen the crater within the city limits and there was just one issue to deal with, I have a feeling Jeffrey Pierce's conversation with her in her old bedroom would have gone in an extremely different direction. It seemed like it was kind of leaning that way too. And as far as the the enemy of fascism having to be both too strong and too weak goes - you see that in her dogged pursuit of Henry. After they find the hideout they know he's out of food and also out of allies (the doc is dead and FEDRA is gone), but somehow this guy warrants whatever power THE ENTIRE CITY can pull together. Like all of Kansas City fell because two people were weak not because both sides were bad. Like she got the position because she worked her way into inheriting it, and her second in command is a follower. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Feb 12, 2023 |
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Feb 12, 2023 16:42
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Neo Rasa posted:But I didn't get a "both sides are bad" vibe from these two episodes at all. The revolutionary side wasn't even close to as bad as FEDRA. Maybe not yet. But the fact that they started staging ambushes only 10 days after the liberation isn't a good sign for where they were headed.
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Feb 12, 2023 16:47
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Having the one sniper in that house in the suburbs is the most competent thing that they did, assuming that he wasn’t posted there specifically to look for Henry and Sam.
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Feb 12, 2023 16:49
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Elden Lord Godfrey posted:While I like how much they do practical effects, one of the downsides is that even when acting as clicker or runner as possible, they all just look like guys in suits. Like you could overpower them 1v1 with a fire axe or something. But in the game you absolutely can beat them 1v1 with a fireaxe?
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Feb 12, 2023 17:17
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Demon Of The Fall posted:How many QZs are there in the game/show in 2023? Not totally sure, but I think Seattle should be gone already. But for details it’s probably best to ask in the other thread.
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Feb 12, 2023 17:19
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It's still blowing my mind that the clicker in the car was a real gymnast, because the inhuman way it moved was standout horrifying. I think maybe the opposite is why the bloater seemed lame to many people, it still moved like a man rather than fungus-operated meat.
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Feb 12, 2023 17:23
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Remy Marathe posted:It's still blowing my mind that the clicker in the car was a real gymnast, because the inhuman way it moved was standout horrifying. I think maybe the opposite is why the bloater seemed lame to many people, it still moved like a man rather than fungus-operated meat.
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Feb 12, 2023 17:33
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Bugblatter posted:Not totally sure, but I think Seattle should be gone already. But for details it’s probably best to ask in the other thread. "Hey, maybe we should try and understand and reason with the mushroom zombies. I'm sure they have decent morels." 
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Feb 12, 2023 17:58
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Let’s say Kathleen didn’t throw everything at Henry. What would they do about the bubbling basement? You saw how many infected poured out of that hole, if they started to open up the basement then that’s where the faucet would be, and I don’t think they’d fair any better then. I don’t think KC was doomed by Kathleen, it was doomed by 15 years of infected going unchecked under their feet.
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Feb 12, 2023 18:03
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Remy Marathe posted:It's still blowing my mind that the clicker in the car was a real gymnast, because the inhuman way it moved was standout horrifying. I think maybe the opposite is why the bloater seemed lame to many people, it still moved like a man rather than fungus-operated meat. I also like the details of the child being a clicker which means the poor kid has been infected for awhile now and your mind fills in the rest.
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Feb 12, 2023 18:13
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Platystemon posted:Having the one sniper in that house in the suburbs is the most competent thing that they did, assuming that he wasn’t posted there specifically to look for Henry and Sam. I assumed he was there just to look for them. I’m not sure why else he would’ve been there. The bloater was a little distracting, a little too video gamey for me. It is interesting how some people seem to just turn into fungus, and others turn into monsters. Wonder if they ever explain why that happens.
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Feb 12, 2023 18:29
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Was that Michonne’s actress in the preview for the next episdoe? I dislike anything TWD related touching this show
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Feb 12, 2023 18:41
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Red Rox posted:I really enjoyed this ep and the series so far, but yeah there were a few annoying cliches. Maybe it’s just impossible to avoid them? It's poor cinematography. Not that the show features it, just the particular scene could have been either trimmed down just a bit or had some other reason that they didn't run at all given multiple chances. There was a noticeable delay between Joel telling them to run after taking out the sniper and them not moving at all, letting all the KC group catch up. Could have easily been solved just by having them drive up faster with less tracking shots of the vehicles. If you still wanted to stretch out the run time just simply have actors come in from multiple angles. Could even do a boom shot for it and be fine. Tension building could have been solved by having the horde rumble out in the background similar to the zombie grandma shot from episode 1. Just have the truck slowly dip out of focus while Cathleen is monologuing to Henry. Instead the camera focuses on it, all the actors turn towards the truck, and the viewer is like ok good there's like a full loving minute here that the guy who is desperately trying to get his kid out of the city isn't booking it? It changed Henry's character from a desperate father to an idiot.
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Feb 12, 2023 18:43
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Koirhor posted:Was that Michonne’s actress in the preview for the next episdoe? I dislike anything TWD related touching this show no. what a weird thing to worry about e: removed a dumb weird jab, apologies Koirhor Aye Doc fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Feb 12, 2023 |
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Feb 12, 2023 18:44
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Good news, Henry is not Sam’s father.
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Feb 12, 2023 18:46
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Bird in a Blender posted:The bloater was a little distracting, a little too video gamey for me. It is interesting how some people seem to just turn into fungus, and others turn into monsters. Wonder if they ever explain why that happens. I haven't played the games, so the post about clicker status implying age made me finally look up the basic fungus mechanics and it actually made a lot of what we've seen so far make more sense. I'm not worried about game spoilers so much as potential show spoilers, the "Biology" section on the wiki below was a safe-ish read spoiler wise for me, though I skipped away every time I saw reference to the word "rat": https://thelastofus.fandom.com/wiki/Infected
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Feb 12, 2023 19:00
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Remy Marathe posted:I haven't played the games, so the post about clicker status implying age made me finally look up the basic fungus mechanics and it actually made a lot of what we've seen so far make more sense. I'm not worried about game spoilers so much as potential show spoilers, the "Biology" section on the wiki below was a safe-ish read spoiler wise for me, though I skipped away every time I saw reference to the word "rat": Can we not? quote:This is going to be the non-spoiler thread for people who just want to discuss the show as it airs without bringing in the context of the game. I get that you, personally, may not be worried about hearing about game info but that's sorta the entire premise of the thread. If people can't resist looking up information from the games about the zombies, or about how many quarantine zones are around and which ones are still active, etc, and then posting about it, I would really appreciate it if posters would go do that in the other thread. Or keep it to yourself. Anywhere but the one thread that's specifically made to not have these things. I understand that maybe some people differentiate between "plot events" and "game lore", and don't classify the latter as a spoiler. But I still would rather learn about the world at the pace that the show chooses to reveal it. Take the clickers. Part of the reason they were so creepy and scary when they first showed up in this show is because we didn't really know much about them, how they would act, what their abilities were, etc, other than a brief mention of rumors of zombies who could see in the dark like bats. If I knew everything about them from the start because I read a fandom wiki article about them, it would have removed some of the suspense for me. Or like, the bloaters. People have mentioned they are enemies in the game, which leads me to imagine there may be some way to kill them. They may have some weakness. But right now, I don't know what that is. I bet there will be another scene where someone finally has to figure out how to kill one. If that happens, then as someone who doesn't know how they die, that will be compelling to watch for me, since I can put myself in the same position of the characters in the show, who also don't know how to kill them. Knowing it beforehand would take away from that. I can also imagine some people would object and say, "but the show is taking a lot of liberties, so it's fine to post details from the game, since it won't necessarily be the same anyway!" But, if it's not going to be the same anyway, then what relevance does it even have? I know this is a long post but I'm really enjoying the show, and enjoying the thread as well, and I would really appreciate it if people would post a little less, or not at all, about bringing in the context of the game. That is explicitly what I came here for.
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Feb 12, 2023 19:58
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XboxPants posted:That is explicitly what I came here for. It’s the point of the thread but they seemingly can’t help themselves
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Feb 12, 2023 20:09
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My hot take is that the episodes would’ve been better without Kathleen, not necessarily cause of her performance, but it’s just a weird diversion. Not every villain needs a sympathetic backstory. Also, this is a close-enough-to-prestige TV show that not every episode needs a villain. In the games, sure it was a little thin to be hunted by bandits, but it didn’t need explanation because that’s the genre + the story is about Joel & Ellie. I think the world has done a good job establishing that everyone in it is a human trying to survive. That’s the only justification you would’ve needed for CHAZ City, they’re being hunted because they’re an outgroup and they killed 3 members of the ingroup. Anything other than Kathleen’s anime villain monologue in her childhood bedroom My hope is that the show chills out on trying to explain and de-mystify everything, and just let the characters breathe in the world. That’s what Episode 3 did and nothing since has reached that
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Feb 12, 2023 20:13
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Kathleen just being a random brutal soccer mom who came to power after a government downfall would have been pretty great
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Feb 12, 2023 20:23
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FalconImpala posted:My hot take is that the episodes would’ve been better without Kathleen, not necessarily cause of her performance, but it’s just a weird diversion. Not every villain needs a sympathetic backstory. Also, this is a close-enough-to-prestige TV show that not every episode needs a villain. In the games, sure it was a little thin to be hunted by bandits, but it didn’t need explanation because that’s the genre + the story is about Joel & Ellie. I think the world has done a good job establishing that everyone in it is a human trying to survive. That’s the only justification you would’ve needed for CHAZ City, they’re being hunted because they’re an outgroup and they killed 3 members of the ingroup. Anything other than Kathleen’s anime villain monologue in her childhood bedroom I largely agree that Kathleen's character wasn't perfect, but I did enjoy the scene between her and longhairguy in her childhood bedroom. That conflict between "actually sticking to the ideals you have that cause you to oppose oppression in the first place" and "effectively getting poo poo done, like, with violence" is a very real dilemma and something I really related to. Also yeah, agreed that the bloater wasn't shot that well. I think it was maybe what someone else posted, he acted too much like a regular human in a costume. Like Rita Repulsa summoned a rock monster to help out the
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Feb 12, 2023 20:27
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XboxPants posted:Can we not?
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Feb 12, 2023 20:40
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I guess maybe I was unclear on the point of this thread, since I haven't played the games but enjoy reading the context of what was changed and what wasn't—I just don't want to risk reading anything about events that happen in the game that we haven't yet seen depicted in the show. For me personally, it does seem strange to get upset about people talking about the game at all, though. It's an adaptation, bringing up the original work is a natural point of comparison and discussion.
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Feb 12, 2023 20:43
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The bloater reminded me of something else - maybe the guys from Nightmare Before Christmas?
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Feb 12, 2023 20:46
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Doltos posted:Kathleen just being a random brutal soccer mom who came to power after a government downfall would have been pretty great Yea I can see an alternate version of this episode where she's the beloved group mom to everyone inside the wall & has a policy of robbing and killing every outsider
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Feb 12, 2023 20:51
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Red Rox posted:The bloater reminded me of something else - maybe the guys from Nightmare Before Christmas? Haha, he does have a little bit of Oogie Boogie look to him.
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Feb 12, 2023 20:53
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FalconImpala posted:Yea I can see an alternate version of this episode where she's the beloved group mom to everyone inside the wall & has a policy of robbing and killing every outsider Kathleen as the brutal dictator of the Duluth QZ. "Oh ya, kids die all the time, dontcha know!"
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Feb 12, 2023 20:56
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BlackIronHeart posted:Kathleen as the brutal dictator of the Duluth QZ. "Oh ya, kids die all the time, dontcha know!" couldn't help but see this as OZ, and Melanie Lynskey channeling Simon Adebisi for the role of Kathleen would have been perfect
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Feb 12, 2023 20:59
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Koirhor posted:Was that Michonne’s actress in the preview for the next episdoe? I dislike anything TWD related touching this show No. The actress is from True Blood.
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Feb 12, 2023 21:11
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FalconImpala posted:My hot take is that the episodes would’ve been better without Kathleen, not necessarily cause of her performance, but it’s just a weird diversion. Not every villain needs a sympathetic backstory. Also, this is a close-enough-to-prestige TV show that not every episode needs a villain. In the games, sure it was a little thin to be hunted by bandits, but it didn’t need explanation because that’s the genre + the story is about Joel & Ellie. I think the world has done a good job establishing that everyone in it is a human trying to survive. That’s the only justification you would’ve needed for CHAZ City, they’re being hunted because they’re an outgroup and they killed 3 members of the ingroup. Anything other than Kathleen’s anime villain monologue in her childhood bedroom I think the story would have actually been more interesting and even sympathetic if we just heard it from Joel's perspective. This guy says he's on the run because he's a collaborator, and then explains he got the rebel leader's brother killed to save his own brother. We would know exactly why they're being hunted so hard and everything we need to to understand the emotional dynamics of the situation. Actually seeing Kathleen sadistically kill dozens and dozens of people because she's just so god drat crazy actually makes the situation harder to understand on an emotional level because she's just a bloodthirsty monster at that point, well beyond what we'd imagine an understandably vengeful tyrant to be. Her villain monologue in her childhood home fell entirely flat because I don't care about her anymore. I guess it emphasizes the crime of our collaborator buddy (I'm terrible with names and have forgotten his already), 'cause we can see just how absolutely terrible things have become in the absence of Kathleen's brother. But that's a small thing to justify how much screen time she got. I think they could have gone further if they wanted to actually explore a character like her. Show us what she did that made her effective, show us why people follow her, show us the social dynamics that lead people to react to a horrific abusive situation by creating a horrific situation of their own. But we don't get that because it's not, and shouldn't be, her story. So instead we get very vaguely told most of those things and shown that her one and only character trait and leadership decision is to kill collaborators with a monomaniacal obsession. And I can see why they did that. It seems like it's trying to up the stakes for our sympathetic collaborator, which is who this story is actually about. But it leaves Kathleen as a pointless caricature who gets too much screen time for her role and not enough screen time to be interesting. The episode was fantastic and the ending was incredibly affecting. I cried. Kathleen did not ruin the episode or anything, or even bring it down all that much. I just think it's interesting to think about how little she ultimately added to the story. Just cut her and all the good parts actually work better, in my opinion.
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Feb 12, 2023 21:20
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I don't think you can cut Kathleen. You need the context from her existence to make Henry work.
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Feb 12, 2023 21:23
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kathleen also directly ties into the themes of the show. her brother was probably charismatic and had a plan or at the very least a goal. quality notwithstanding at the least it's something you can build on. she gave them permission to unleash their hate, which can come with immediate results that might even feel great but ultimately collapse, heh.
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Feb 12, 2023 21:35
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Arist posted:I don't think you can cut Kathleen. You need the context from her existence to make Henry work. boo boo bear posted:kathleen also directly ties into the themes of the show. her brother was probably charismatic and had a plan or at the very least a goal. quality notwithstanding at the least it's something you can build on. she gave them permission to unleash their hate, which can come with immediate results that might even feel great but ultimately collapse, heh. It 'worked' in the context of making Henry's plight more harrowing, but I think it would be harrowing enough from just implying all that.
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Feb 12, 2023 21:41
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I'm saying that you need to see Kathleen or that has no impact.
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Feb 12, 2023 21:43
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I'm kind of wondering something about the whole KC situation. How does one "drive underground" a non-sentient and relentlessly aggressive fungus? Doesn't being smart enough to hide huge numbers of zombies underground imply a level of intelligence in fungus zombies that sort of defies the zombie label?zelah posted:Let’s say Kathleen didn’t throw everything at Henry. What would they do about the bubbling basement? You saw how many infected poured out of that hole, if they started to open up the basement then that’s where the faucet would be, and I don’t think they’d fair any better then. They could have built defenses around it. They could have collapsed the building into the bubbling basement, crushing most things down there and creating a thick barrier against coming above ground right there. If they wanted to get fancy they could do both. Ring the bubbling basement with fire traps so that when the zombies come out they have to run into and through a burning fire. Then you ring the hallways all around with mines. Hopefully they've got anti-fungal mines of some sort after 20 years, but since bullets were killing them, a simple claymore mine would slaughter them in huge numbers in an enclosed space like a hallway. Outside, you clear firing lines and build walls fronted with barbed wire (more to tangle the zombies than hurt them) and other fortified firing spots. If, somehow, the fungus zombies start getting too close to your soldiers despite all that, you could still have rigged the building to collapse back into the basement, killing even more zombies while cutting off the flow, allowing the soldiers to clean up those who've already left the building relatively safely. That's just off the top of my head, mind you. I haven't spent the last twenty years locked in a war with zombies so I'm a lot worse at this than any of them should be. Ignoring the immediate problem in favor of pursuing her vengeance was definitely a bad call. Even leaving aside how bad getting effectively ambushed in the open, as happened at the end of the episode, went for them. Eiba posted:But Henry gives you all the context you need- "My collaboration got their leader's brother killed". Their obsession makes perfect sense with just that. Perhaps more sense than the self destructive obsession we end up seeing. 
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Feb 12, 2023 23:46
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I guess maybe I was unclear on the point of this thread, since I haven't played the games but enjoy reading the context of what was changed and what wasn't—I just don't want to risk reading anything about events that happen in the game that we haven't yet seen depicted in the show. For me personally, it does seem strange to get upset about people talking about the game at all, though. It's an adaptation, bringing up the original work is a natural point of comparison and discussion. Even that is kind of an issue, because in late March a PC port of the first game is coming out, and a lot of people will be playing that story. This feels right for just reading the text of the show as is and presented, and there is a whole other thread for game spoiler stuff too which would be a better place for comparisons. Let the show be what it is on it's own, and not take mystery out of the game, either. I'm sure a LOT of people will be playing it because of this show.
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Feb 13, 2023 00:19
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FalconImpala posted:My hot take is that the episodes would’ve been better without Kathleen, not necessarily cause of her performance, but it’s just a weird diversion. Not every villain needs a sympathetic backstory. Also, this is a close-enough-to-prestige TV show that not every episode needs a villain. In the games, sure it was a little thin to be hunted by bandits, but it didn’t need explanation because that’s the genre + the story is about Joel & Ellie. I think the world has done a good job establishing that everyone in it is a human trying to survive. That’s the only justification you would’ve needed for CHAZ City, they’re being hunted because they’re an outgroup and they killed 3 members of the ingroup. Anything other than Kathleen’s anime villain monologue in her childhood bedroom It feels in some ways like an exploration of different "situations", different kinds of survivor groups for Joel and Ellie to encounter. They have a traditional QZ/FEDRA situation, they have a quiet isolationist couple, and they have a citizen rebellion. Having it led by a suburban soccer mum / Katie Porter I think is cool and funny and the series was better for it. Presumably we'll get to see some larger rural compounds or something. Also opening on the shots of the crowds chanting "freedom" gave an eerie insight into what we may have been looking at had our pandemic played out over a slightly longer time frame. We had people literally baying for the blood of politicians after being asked to wear a mask and get vaccinated and stay inside if they can. It does not bode well.
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Feb 13, 2023 00:38
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Those dummies had only just won over Fedra what, ten days ago?
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Feb 13, 2023 00:40
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LLSix posted:They could have built defenses around it. They could have collapsed the building into the bubbling basement, crushing most things down there and creating a thick barrier against coming above ground right there. Lol so they somehow manage to perform a controlled demolition of this building and then…hope it doesn’t weaken the ground in other areas? Hope they don’t pop up somewhere else after throwing probably all their resources into defending a single spot? The city was screwed. Either tomorrow or in a month or a year, but they were on borrowed time.
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Feb 13, 2023 00:55
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zelah posted:Let’s say Kathleen didn’t throw everything at Henry. What would they do about the bubbling basement? You saw how many infected poured out of that hole, if they started to open up the basement then that’s where the faucet would be, and I don’t think they’d fair any better then. I mean there's a huge difference between a planned defense vs essentially an ambush. If they were focusing on the infected they could've lured them into a killzone and had bombs and traps ready. This was them completely taken off guard
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Feb 13, 2023 01:01
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