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Thundercracker posted:I mean there's a huge difference between a planned defense vs essentially an ambush. If they were focusing on the infected they could've lured them into a killzone and had bombs and traps ready. This was them completely taken off guard This was them suffering the consequences of a stupidly myopic revenge mission
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Feb 13, 2023 01:05
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Michael wasn't just the rebel leader's brother, he was the previous rebel leader. Everyone loved him, everyone was loyal to him. When Kathleen directs KC at Henry, they follow because they too are trying to avenge the memory of Michael. The main difference was that Michael was too cautious, he held back too long, and he wanted to do it with as little bloodshed as possible. If he succeeded, he probably would have had a better chance of governing. But he left it so long he ended up betrayed by. When Kathleen saw an opportunity (very likely FEDRA noticing the same underground activity and moving their forces out of position), she struck hard and fast. She got results that Michael would not have done. This is why KC are still willing to follow her orders. LLSix posted:I'm kind of wondering something about the whole KC situation. How does one "drive underground" a non-sentient and relentlessly aggressive fungus? Doesn't being smart enough to hide huge numbers of zombies underground imply a level of intelligence in fungus zombies that sort of defies the zombie label? That we know that the KC FEDRA was particularly brutal, here's how I think they did it. They used living human lures. Use gunfire to lead a horde to the tunnel entrance. A few dozen yards inside, you have a group of KC citizens tied, spotlighted and surrounded by noisemakers. When the horde reaches them, another group further down the tunnel gets spotlighted. After a few intervals most of the horde is inside, then you seal the tunnels. Now is it a good idea? Isn't it easier to just gun them down? It's basically a way of kicking the can down the road. But that's how a group as brutal as KC FEDRA could have pulled it off.
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Feb 13, 2023 01:12
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If anyone wants to watch Kansas City get wrecked a second time, the Super Bowl is on right now
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Feb 13, 2023 01:37
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If you think the resistance was portrayed as unrealistically vindictive, hypocritical, self-defeating, and subservient to an obviously unqualified dumbass, consider that it's basically like if the Jan 6 fanatics managed to actually seize power by force.
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Feb 13, 2023 02:33
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Volte posted:If you think the resistance was portrayed as unrealistically vindictive, hypocritical, self-defeating, and subservient to an obviously unqualified dumbass, consider that it's basically like if the Jan 6 fanatics managed to actually seize power by force. No, it’s not that that the situation was unbelievable, it’s that I found the acting and/or directing of the actors (in particular, Kathleen) unconvincing relative to what we’re told is the situation.
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Feb 13, 2023 02:54
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Bucky Fullminster posted:Also opening on the shots of the crowds chanting "freedom" gave an eerie insight into what we may have been looking at had our pandemic played out over a slightly longer time frame. We had people literally baying for the blood of politicians after being asked to wear a mask and get vaccinated and stay inside if they can. It does not bode well. Volte posted:If you think the resistance was portrayed as unrealistically vindictive, hypocritical, self-defeating, and subservient to an obviously unqualified dumbass, consider that it's basically like if the Jan 6 fanatics managed to actually seize power by force. FEDRA were actual jackbooted fascists, not reasonable medical authorities or the democratic rule of law. The rebels were the good guys and FEDRA were the bad guys. It was good that the rebels won. I was kind of thinking during some of those scenes that it was playing out like the paranoid fantasy of those in comfortable positions of power. "If we lose our power, the mad animals that make up the lower classes will string us up in the street" It seemed kind of like the show was playing out a morality tale to support that kind of paranoia and obsession with rule of law that sees riot cops sent against peaceful protestors all the time. And then I thought that was silly, because no one would look at the whole scenario and think it was endorsing FEDRA over the rebels. But in fact we only see the rebel's brutality and not FEDRA's, so naturally we do in fact have people in this thread comparing the rebels to actual fascists who in the real world frame their entitlement to power in terms of false persecution. The rebels were not January 6th rioters being depicted more intense January 6th rioters. They were Black Lives Matter protestors being depicted as being proportionally more crazy for the sheer level of brutality they had been subjected to.
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Feb 13, 2023 03:01
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Eiba posted:Jesus. Modern politics have really hosed up our notions of authoritarianism and violent dissent. I wasn't calling anyone good guys or bad guys, because I think part of the point of the whole thing is that in an extreme situation like that, the validity and usefulness of such a dichotomy quickly dissolves. All I said was the "freedom" chants felt uncomfortably familiar, and it was frighteningly easy to imagine any government pandemic response being overthrown by disgruntled civilians (especially given the disinformation fed to them by bad actors in our world). In fact the least plausible part was that it took 20 years. You're probably right that the resistance in the show is closer to BLM than Jan 6, but I don't think it's a clear cut as you make it. The point of the show seems to be that there is a of shittiness going around and finding the right side is extremely complicated, if not outright impossible. Also it's obviously not simply "good" that the rebels won, since it took them all of ten days to release the swarms of infected, and they appear to be very keen to murder people.
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Feb 13, 2023 03:15
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Eiba posted:FEDRA were actual jackbooted fascists, not reasonable medical authorities or the democratic rule of law. They also have way more of a militia vibe to them. Those guys walking around in full tactical gear at all times don't exactly remind me of BLM. edit: Also the show was definitely not saying "FEDRA were the good guys", if anything it was "FEDRA were the bad guys who thought they were the good guys, and they got defeated by some other bad guys who think they're the good guys". And they're hung up trying to kill some other bad guys who at least know they're bad guys. Henry literally said it explicitly in the episode. Volte fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 03:28
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Bucky Fullminster posted:Also it's obviously not simply "good" that the rebels won, since it took them all of ten days to release the swarms of infected, and they appear to be very keen to murder people. My read was similar to other posters’ in this thread, that the infected swarm was 15 years of kicking cans down the road. So idk if you can lay that at the rebels’ feet. But yeah, Henry should have been Kathleen’s “fifth priority” or whatever she said.
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Feb 13, 2023 03:47
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The problem I have/had with the revolution is: now what? You overthrew one group of people who, at the absolute bare minimum, was keeping people alive in a post-apocalyptic wasteland. We saw in Boston that FEDRA was taking care of things like sewage, distributing food and presumably sourcing said food, and disposing of infected bodies. I think it's safe to say that the Kansas FEDRA was doing the same thing. So now that FEDRA is gone and "Kansas belongs to the people," now what? What's your plan to continue keeping the infected at bay and to provide for some semblance of a life to the people now under your boots?
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Feb 13, 2023 03:54
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To be fair that’s in line with a lot of revolutions/rebellions
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Feb 13, 2023 03:58
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"Everything's great." "Dude!"
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Feb 13, 2023 04:15
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Koirhor posted:Was that Michonne’s actress in the preview for the next episdoe? I dislike anything TWD related touching this show No, that was Tara from True Blood, she's great. 
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Feb 13, 2023 04:26
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So far the show hasn't depicted a non-authoritarian setting successfully keeping the fungus at bay. It's either FEDRA fortresses or two guys with unlimited fuel for their huge electric fence. It seems to echo a theme of Chernobyl, that you can try your best to ignore a problem, but eventually reality hits you in the face and you either make a huge effort to solve it or you watch everyone die.
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Feb 13, 2023 04:27
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yeah as i mentioned in a different post, Fedra's problem is that they are locked into being authoritarian dickheads. compared to zombies in other stories, the LoU zombies don't like sunlight and a significant amount of the infected die after a few months to a year on their own. it's been 20 years and there just aren't that many new infected being created, fedra should have been able to start expanding safe zones for a while now, but can't.
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Feb 13, 2023 04:32
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smoobles posted:If anyone wants to watch Kansas City get wrecked a second time, the Super Bowl is on right now like a bloater, this post did not age well
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Feb 13, 2023 04:38
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zelah posted:To be fair that’s in line with a lot of revolutions/rebellions "Would-be revolutionaries becoming overly focused on settling scores instead of consolidating their position" is a tale as old as time.
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Feb 13, 2023 04:54
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Anyway, drawing parallels to any current political movement with regard to the rebels versus FEDRA is missing the point by a pretty wide margin. At no point does the show attempt to even hint that overthrowing FEDRA in KC wasn't justified—pointedly, even the character with the most reason to be sympathetic to them calls them "fascist motherfuckers" who only did one good thing in the 20 years they were in charge. Where the show points its criticism is towards the pointless, retaliatory bloodshed that occurs in the aftermath of the rebel's victory, wasting lives and resources on petty and ultimately hollow revenge. Of course, this all fits in with the general thesis of the show. Throughout each episode so far, we've seen how despite the collapse of society and humanity itself teetering on the brink of extinction, humans are still killing each other in petty, pointless squabbles. FEDRA kills people who break their rules. The Rebels kill people who collaborated with FEDRA. Bandits attack strangers to take their things. The vast majority of people killed in each episode aren't killed by the fungus, but are killed by other survivors, continually drawing down the dwindling human population and further weakening what remains of civil society. And because this is an extremely unsubtle metaphor, the primary threat humanity faces is from the collective organism that is the fungus — which does not struggle against itself, remains unified in its singular purpose, and would simply wither away to nothing if humanity could simply get its collective poo poo together. Meanwhile, the show also takes care to show that we do not have to kill each other to survive. Episode 3 clearly shows what happens when people trust in one another and work together towards a common good: A mostly peaceful, loving, and sustainable existance. If the KC rebels hadn't pursued Henry and the other collaborators with such fervor (Or ambush a pair of innocent travelers), they would not have destroyed themselves. If FEDRA did not cling so tightly to their regimented discipline and paranoia, the people would have nothing to rebel against. If the soldier in the first episode had reacted with compassion instead of fear, both he and Joel's daughter would still be alive. The list goes on, and will likely continue to go on as the show continues. Really, the show's whole thesis can be wrapped up in one line: “We must love one another, or we must die.” Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 05:58
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Really, the show's whole thesis can be wrapped up in one line: “We must love one another, or we must die.” good post, let's see how this plays out Mantis42 fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 06:41
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Anyway, drawing parallels to any current political movement with regard to the rebels versus FEDRA is missing the point by a pretty wide margin. At no point does the show attempt to even hint that overthrowing FEDRA in KC wasn't justified—pointedly, even the character with the most reason to be sympathetic to them calls them "fascist motherfuckers" who only did one good thing in the 20 years they were in charge. Where the show points its criticism is towards the pointless, retaliatory bloodshed that occurs in the aftermath of the rebel's victory, wasting lives and resources on petty and ultimately hollow revenge. Capital post, thank you.
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Feb 13, 2023 13:34
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Nobody is saying "this was an allegory for the Jan 6 riots". Only that regular angry people staging a revolution, justified or otherwise (and it's justified in their own minds one way or the other) doesn't necessarily make them good people or good leaders, and that even if Kathleen was a deeply underqualified leader with vengeance as her primary driving force, the idea that people would still blindly follow her against their own best interests is, at the end of the day, realistic.
Volte fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 14:40
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Volte posted:Nobody is saying "this was an allegory for the Jan 6 riots". Only that regular angry people staging a revolution, justified or otherwise (and it's justified in their own minds one way or the other) doesn't necessarily make them good people or good leaders, and that even if Kathleen was a deeply underqualified leader with vengeance as her primary driving force, the idea that people would still blindly follow her against their own best interests is, at the end of the day, realistic. Yeah obviously if their original leader was killed because of an informant then, of course, without further context they have plenty of reason to want Henry dead too. When Kathleen and her number 1 guy see the crater though and also where Henry was hiding, I mean yeah she could have addressed folks and said "I want Henry to suffer and die just as much all of you, me MORE than any of you because of how close [I forget dead leader's name] and I were, but Henry is one guy on the run who's out of food and has no more FEDRA friends to turn to, we have to deal with this crater and then make sure the tunnels are still properly sealed." And if she said that, they would have followed her just as loyally, but she stoked everyone's thirst for revenge instead. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 15:32
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Apologize for my face blindness
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Feb 13, 2023 16:59
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So just out of curiosity, does leukemia medicine work like that? Take one dosage or whatever and poof cured? Or was Sam still a dead man walking but had a few extra months? I’m guessing it’s the latter but it would be cool if some leukemia drug could treat it if caught early or something. E: without sounding evil, if it only bought him a few more months but required him to be exiled and living in the wilderness worrying about getting got every night I’m not sure that’s a better life vs living in comfort in a protected zone for your remaining months E2: that’s not to say Henry did the right or wrong thing. I mean he did what he thought was right to protect the people close to him. But it’s a nice stark contrast to Frank’s situation where he knew even IF they could scramble some medicine the extra months of life would be miserable and not worth it compared to going out peacefully on your terms Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 18:16
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Boris Galerkin posted:So just out of curiosity, does leukemia medicine work like that? Take one dosage or whatever and poof cured? Or was Sam still a dead man walking but had a few extra months? Yeah I was wondering that too. It was all pretty vague but I didn't get the impression that he'd bought him loads of time - or that they had any medicine left by the time we saw them.
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Feb 13, 2023 18:19
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Boris Galerkin posted:So just out of curiosity, does leukemia medicine work like that? Take one dosage or whatever and poof cured? Or was Sam still a dead man walking but had a few extra months? My assumption is that by medicine they meant treatment and were just using shorthand. Treatment for childhood leukemia is usually still chemo, it just tends to work better on kids than adults because kids are still growing and they can heal through it better than adults who have less fast replicating cells. If they pumped him full of the good stuff and he had soemthing like ALL there is a decent shot that they could functionally cure him.
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Feb 13, 2023 18:42
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Eiba posted:The rebels were not January 6th rioters being depicted more intense January 6th rioters. They were Black Lives Matter protestors being depicted as being proportionally more crazy for the sheer level of brutality they had been subjected to. Totally, when I want to make a metaphor for BLM my go-to archetypes are the suburban soccer mom Karen and the white dude wearing camo with an AR-15 strapped to his chest Mantis42 posted:good post, let's see how this plays out Agreed!
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Feb 13, 2023 20:50
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I'm disappointed we didn't get a shot of a guy turning towards the camera yelling "WE GOT A [END BOSS CREATURE NAME HERE]"
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Feb 13, 2023 21:09
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Boris Galerkin posted:So just out of curiosity, does leukemia medicine work like that? Take one dosage or whatever and poof cured? Or was Sam still a dead man walking but had a few extra months? 98% of kids who start leukemia treatment go into remission within a month. The survival rate of childhood leukemia is now 94%; in 2003 it was around 90%.
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Feb 13, 2023 21:20
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Chamale posted:98% of kids who start leukemia treatment go into remission within a month. The survival rate of childhood leukemia is now 94%; in 2003 it was around 90%. And a lot of them don't need to be treated again, it's just gone after. They need to be checked on every once in a while but for the most part they live regular lives after that.
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Feb 13, 2023 21:38
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I think my issue with Kathleen is that there's all this stuff we don't see on the screen that we need her performance (largely) to sell - her brother as an inspirational but idealistic leader, FEDRA as a particularly horrible oppressive regime making people's lives intolerable, and her effectiveness in taking them out when her brother couldn't thus inspiring the loyalty of her soldiers. We do get her questioning prisoners and ordering them killed, combined with a quietly-spoken manner, which actually worked for me a bit more in the previous episode without all the backstory. I would have liked her as a more straightforward villain; we need to see more facets of her/their little microcosm of hell on screen for the other stuff to stick. I did like the scene in her brother's room, though.
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Feb 13, 2023 22:51
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drat that kid's going to have so much PTSD after this episode
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Feb 14, 2023 01:00
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Chamale posted:98% of kids who start leukemia treatment go into remission within a month. The survival rate of childhood leukemia is now 94%; in 2003 it was around 90%. That's actually good news and good to know. Thanks.
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Feb 14, 2023 01:20
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Edit: poo poo wrong thread, it wasn't much of a spoiler anyway.
deoju fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Feb 14, 2023 |
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Feb 14, 2023 02:01
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is anyone else getting pissed off that every freaking episode ends with any potential allies joel and ellie could make dying, and not once, not ONCE has an episode concluded with EITHER of them saying "i guess we truly are the last of us"
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Feb 14, 2023 04:13
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Oof. In the podcast Mazin says he believes the people are still intact after being infected, while talking about Sam. 
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Feb 14, 2023 04:19
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did ellie really think that blood brothers thing was gonna work. i mean i guess ya gotta try but she seemed pretty confident i sure wouldnt fuckin sleep in there. and they did that whole 'worst movie-rear end place to cut yourself to draw blood' thing. enjoy your freaking infection! great ep though great ep.
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Feb 14, 2023 04:56
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I didn't get the impression that she thought it would work that way. She was just trying to make the kid feel better.
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Feb 14, 2023 05:08
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She definitely thought it would work, she walks right up to him in the morning
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Feb 14, 2023 05:10
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She's a kid, I think she did have a genuine hope that it might work, even if she knew it probably wouldn't. I imagine she was going to try and stay awake to keep an eye on him but then exhaustion caught up with her, and when she woke up the next morning and saw him sitting on the bed she had a happy moment where she really thought it had.
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Feb 14, 2023 05:11
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