USCE Winter 2023: change thread titles constantly, almost on a daily basis

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USCE Winter 2023: change thread titles constantly, almost on a daily basis

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Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Harold Fjord posted:

This is a pretty unreasonable comparison due to the type and scale of harms risked by ignoring the government body. Ignoring the EPA and staying away isn't like catching covid at the height of the pandemic. No one is endangering themselves and others through excess caution here.

When someone starts their argument by rejecting all data and evidence, they can't say something like this. When you're relying on fiction and conjecture to determine the risks, you can't say that your risk assessment is any more valid than anyone else's fictional made-up risk assessment. Just as you're saying that the dangers of "excess caution" are mild compared to the "risks" of following EPA guidance, antivaxxers certainly thought that the imagined risks of vaccines far outweighed the risk they thought COVID posed.

And I wouldn't exactly say that there's no harm in being forced out of your home, your work, and your kids' school for an indefinite period of time, leaving your pets and most of your possessions behind. Of course, it's an obvious price to pay in the face of a legitimate threat to public health, but it's not so inconsequential that agencies should unnecessarily drag it out after the threat has passed.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 16:04

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 22:04

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004; Can't post for 42 hours!

Main Paineframe posted:

When someone starts their argument by rejecting all data and evidence

No one ever did this so I'm lost. There is competing evidence and data. You've rejected some too! There are reports from various people of what they are experiencing on the ground in the town, for example.

And personal risk is still different from endangering others, which is why comparisons to the highly communicable disease that killed millions seems unreasonable to me.

This is a lot more like climate change, but without even the empty calls to action from the expected parties.

Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Feb 15, 2023

# ? Feb 15, 2023 16:09

Papercut: Aug 24, 2005

Harold Fjord posted:

No one ever did this so I'm lost. There is competing evidence and data. You've rejected some too! There are reports from various people of what they are experiencing on the ground in the town, for example.

And personal risk is still different from endangering others, which is why comparisons to the highly communicable disease that killed millions seems unreasonable to me.

This is a lot more like climate change, but without even the empty calls to action from the expected parties.

Can you link to this competing data? I saw the plume pic you posted but I'm assuming there's more to the objections than just that

# ? Feb 15, 2023 16:16

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004; Can't post for 42 hours!

Papercut posted:

Can you link to this competing data? I saw the plume pic you posted but I'm assuming there's more to the objections than just that

Reports from people on the ground experiencing symptoms. Just as an example. The point was "reject all data" is a misnomer.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 16:17

CuddleCryptid: Jan 11, 2013; Things could be going better

Harold Fjord posted:

No one ever did this so I'm lost. There is competing evidence and data. You've rejected some too! There are reports from various people of what they are experiencing on the ground in the town, for example.

There are unverified posts by people claiming that they are experiencing symptoms and live in the area, repeated by the same news organizations who are saying that the tanks were venting phosgene. That's not "competing data", that's rumormongering.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 16:18

RealityWarCriminal: Aug 10, 2016

They may live there and be experiencing symptoms, but it is the EPA who knows best.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Feb 15, 2023 16:24

Kale: May 14, 2010

nine-gear crow posted:

2016 was probably the worst year for that because it just seemed like one flowed into the other so it felt like loving EVERYONE died in 2016 starting with Alan Rickman at the start of January and then ending with Carrie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds at the end of December.

A lot of cool people died right as the world started going full bore into the great culture conspiracy grievance spewing war we've mired ourselves in with no end in site. Its kind of the beginning of when everything just broke qnd hard not to see as the dividing line between epochs.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 16:26

cat botherer: Jan 6, 2022; I am interested in most phases of data processing.

Kale posted:

A lot of cool people died right as the world started going full bore into the great culture conspiracy grievance spewing war we've mired ourselves in with no end in site. Its kind of the beginning of when everything just broke qnd hard not to see as the dividing line between epochs.

David Bowie was what really broke the seal.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 16:28

Papercut: Aug 24, 2005

RealityWarCriminal posted:

They may live there and be experiencing symptoms, but it is the EPA who knows best.

Can you link to some of these people?

# ? Feb 15, 2023 16:28

Baronash: Feb 29, 2012; So what do you want to be called?

RealityWarCriminal posted:

They may live there and be experiencing symptoms, but it is the EPA who knows best.

Am I honor bound to take this map at face value too?

Youth Decay posted:

https://twitter.com/aeonanimus/status/1624795764470816770
this map is certainly something

# ? Feb 15, 2023 16:32

CuddleCryptid: Jan 11, 2013; Things could be going better

RealityWarCriminal posted:

They may live there and be experiencing symptoms, but it is the EPA who knows best.

Listen I know that it sounds ridiculous but the fact of the matter is that the police are having very serious reactions to fentanyl and it's unfair to them to just write off their lived experiences.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 16:32

RealityWarCriminal: Aug 10, 2016

You are denying these people their lived experiences. You are doing a no-growth.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Feb 15, 2023 16:33

Paracaidas: Sep 24, 2016; Consistently Tedious!

Dayen and The American Prospect with an obituary for Democratic deficit hawks that I personally feel is premature and optimistic, but does nicely identify a few of the underlying causes and compares this administration to its Dem predecessors.

A note before we begin:
This piece comes days before Dayen penned The Last Pandemic Welfare Supports Get Kicked Out:
Expirations around Medicaid and food stamps reinforce how Democrats failed to live up to professed ambitions on the welfare state., which is helpful context to understand that this is less unreserved praise of current Dems and more chronicling the apparent power loss of the Dem Austerity caucus.

Excerpts throughout, retaining the right to frankenstein article flow. Anything I omit is generally wellwritten and worth reading so you should just skip this post and read the link directly.

quote:

The Twilight of the Deficit Hawks
Democrats have stopped being the willing partner in a great conspiracy to slash social insurance.

First, a look at where we are:

quote:

President Biden�s jujitsu this week at the State of the Union address, effectively taking cuts to Social Security and Medicare off the table in future negotiations around the debt limit, reveals how this dynamic has been ended. The deficit hawks have lost nearly all their friends in the Democratic Party, a significant sea change that makes a grand bargain to damage retirement security far less likely.

If you know where to look, you can see the angst this is causing. The Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget�a remnant of the deficit hawkery architecture first assembled in the 1990s�put out a statement this week accusing the White House of �demagoguing� the idea of a fast-track deficit commission that would propose budgetary changes, including cuts to Social Security and Medicare, and get an up-or-down vote without amendments or the potential for a filibuster. White House spokesperson Andrew Bates called the deficit commission idea a �death panel for Medicare and Social Security,� which CRFB president Maya MacGuineas said �demonstrates a lack of seriousness on this important issue.�

But who isn�t serious, given the current dynamics? Virtually the entire Democratic Party and (at least rhetorically) the leadership of the Republican Party is on one side of the issue; CRFB is left with a handful of MAGA cranks on the other. The waning influence of the deficit hawks is one of the more dramatic changes in D.C. politics in the last decade.

�The austerians in Washington have always trafficked in cruelty and racism, but they used to launder it through organizations with the veneer of fiscal responsibility,� said Lindsay Owens, executive director of the Groundwork Collaborative. �This Congress, the facade has evaporated and folks like Maya MacGuineas are fully aligned with the policy demands of toxic elements like Matt Gaetz.�

We'll return to "a remnant of the deficit hawkery architecture first assembled in the 1990s", but first a reminder of where we've been -- something that I know many D&D readers don't need but will include in case anyone finds it helpful:

quote:

The actual numbers in question have traditionally played less of a role in the political game, however, as the taunts from what Paul Krugman dubbed the Very Serious People used to work. �Going back to the �80s and �90s, there�s always been this idea that the in-the-know people knew that we had to cut social programs,� said economist Dean Baker, who has long swum against that tide. �That�s what responsible people did.�

Since the Carter administration nearly a half-century ago, Democratic presidents have been comfortable with various iterations of this line of thinking. �The era of big government is over,� President Bill Clinton once said at the 1996 State of the Union address. Barack Obama boasted of reducing spending to the lowest level since Eisenhower.

In terms of actual principles, of course, the GOP doesn�t care about deficits; under every Republican president for the last 40 years, it has happily supported giant deficit-busting tax cuts.

How we got there has a large and varied number of answers. Dayen chooses "Austerian Demigod Pete Peterson" as a peg, though it's important to note he implicates the broader 'elite' political and media apparatus, in case that gets lost in my hackjob of a post.

quote:

The decades-old Peterson family of organizations and programs have been the primary voices doing the cheerleading. Peterson, an investment bank and private equity executive and former commerce secretary under Richard Nixon, co-founded the Concord Coalition just as Clinton took the White House, and Clinton named him to an entitlement and tax reform commission in 1994. Over the next 20 years, he spent half a billion dollars through the Peterson Foundation to put together think tanks, research shops, ostensible news organizations and programs aimed at millennials (one was called The Can Kicks Back), and other groups to encourage a deficit reduction agenda.

A look at the board of directors of CRFB, one of the few entities in the Peterson orbit left (he died in 2018), reads like a roster of political royalty that is actually tilted toward Democrats. It includes two former Clinton chiefs of staff (Erskine Bowles and former Obama Defense Secretary Leon Panetta); 11 former Democratic members of Congress (Reps. Panetta, Tim Penny, Jane Harman, Marjorie Margolies, David Minge, John Spratt, John Tanner, Dave McCurdy, and former Lyndon Johnson Chief of Staff James Jones, plus Sens. Kent Conrad and Chuck Robb), former Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter, and Carter�s Office of Management and Budget Director James McIntyre. To be sure, there are former Republican officeholders on the board too, along with corporate executives and lobbyists, with plenty of revolving-door overlap between all of those positions.

�The world [Peterson] created, the bubble he created, they all are still living in it,� said Altman. The problem for them is that world has shrunk. They are outside the legislative boundaries set up by Biden and House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, lingering on the same side as conservative bomb-throwing think tanks like the Heritage Foundation, Americans for Prosperity, and the American Enterprise Institute. A group with prior bipartisan credentials is now on the edge of MAGA-world.

This hasn�t stopped CRFB from churning out time-warp policy ideas. Media house organs for deficit hawkery also remain stuck in that loop. The Washington Post editorial board continues to advocate for entitlement �reform.�

What changed? Dayen's theory:

quote:

[These organs seek to] convince the public that fiscal deficits are a moral crime against future generations, that government budgets must operate like family budgets, and that caring about the long-run budget picture in 2096 was more responsible than worrying about whether existing seniors have dignity in retirement and the ability to afford medications.

The key to the success of this unpopular agenda was buy-in across the political spectrum. Politicians recognize that cutting Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid would be hazardous to their career health. But if both sides agreed with the proposition, they could diffuse responsibility by holding hands and plunging the austerity blade in together. The middle class would get screwed but not know who to blame. �Clinton and Obama and people in their administrations, they considered themselves responsible people. They always got applauded and were proud of it,� said Baker.

But there�s no true audience for this advocacy in the Democratic Party, which turns these previously effective pitches into nothing of consequence. Unfortunately for the CRFB, their roster of Democratic budget-cutters decidedly represents the politics of the past in Democratic circles. The desire to put aside politics and meet generational challenges is mostly confined to throwbacks like Sen. Joe Manchin (D-WV).

This White House has not shown the least bit of interest and has been openly hostile to Manchin�s core idea, a fast-track deficit commission.

The problem for Republicans is that they have always wanted Democrats as willing partners, in no small part because then they could try to pin the blame on Democrats. Democratic rejection of deficit politics leaves Republicans politically exposed. And so their leadership is compelled to take it off the table and publicly announce that Social Security and Medicare won�t be touched. Donald Trump wanting to use Social Security and Medicare as a wedge issue against Ron DeSantis, who was a Paul Ryan dittohead in Congress, is another factor. But even if that didn�t exist, Republicans don�t have the cover they need to slash social insurance.

While budget concerns, simply by virtue of the rise in chatter about them, have risen in prominence among the public, they still pale in comparison to the economy or health care costs. And the mechanism to turn deficit hawkery into reality is missing.

Republicans, as a result, have no real objective for debt limit hostage-taking other than taking the hostage. �It makes their effort transparently political,� Baker said. �There�s no coherent story that we have to do it.�

Finally, we lay out the path forward and what is being discussed:

quote:

Just a week before the State of the Union, CRFB released a document called �Principles for Social Security Reform,� pressing for �benefit and/or revenue adjustments as quickly as possible� and admonishing policymakers to �reject partisan and special interest demagoguing� (CRFB, in this construction, does not represent a special interest). At the same time, they offered a handful of options to improve solvency in various trust funds, including raising the retirement age for Social Security to 70. This is a curious proposal (there�s already no set retirement age; individuals can take Social Security at any point between 62 and 70, with varying benefit levels for each) that serves mainly to mask what is a straight benefit cut. Economics professor Teresa Ghilarducci calculates the cut at 13 to 15 percent of benefits; [others put] it at more like 23 percent.

The public, it should be said, is resoundingly opposed to such ideas; even a majority of Republican voters don�t want this outcome.

THE REALITY OF THE SOCIAL SECURITY and Medicare trust funds rarely comes up in these conversations. Social Security�s issues can be permanently solved with a relatively small amount of money�about 1.5 percent of GDP. Due to inequality, nearly 1 in 5 dollars of salary is exempt from Social Security payroll taxes, which are capped at $160,200 of income per year. That�s the highest share of earnings exempt from payroll taxation in 50 years. Scrapping the cap brings back almost half the money needed to cover the shortfall, and applying it to capital income above a certain threshold would largely solve the problem.

The shortfall in Medicare is even smaller: 0.41 percent of GDP by 2050, according to the latest actuarial projections, which recognize that health care spending has actually been falling relative to GDP. Further reforms on prescription drug prices will continue to whittle it down.

As noted at the beginning, I think this victory lap is premature. Future Dem pols will continue to seek the same applause from the same audience that Clinton and Obama reveled in... if for no other reason than that glowing Washington Post editorials and puff pieces about how you're the adult in the room and willing to put politics aside to make the hard choices win you more friends, votes, and dollars than intraparty allegations that you're trying to kill Social Security cost you. It is good that the hawks are (for once) being brushed off by the administration, but they will continue to stalk the halls of congress and we have seen how a few senators who are willing to halt everything that doesn't fit their desires can wield outsize influence. Likewise, little about the Dems in the past decade suggests to me that their next House majority won't contain dozens of debt hawks.

So, I think he's over his skis and optimistic. In spite of that, I thought the article was a helpful primer for where we are and where we've been and how this administration is different. Candidly, I expected Biden to govern more closely to Manchin than he has. It's been a pleasant surprise.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 16:33

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006; war crimes enthusiast

RealityWarCriminal posted:

They may live there and be experiencing symptoms, but it is the EPA who knows best.

Have you ever looked at the local stories from people nearby to three mile island when it occurred. There are books that collected them.

They are remarkably similar. Stunning similar, even the images of things like fish kills and dead birds. Why?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Feb 15, 2023 17:30

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Baronash posted:

Am I honor bound to take this map at face value too?

Yes. Not only strange, dark skies, but also evil clouds? Sounds like we should immediately activate the Special Wizard Assault Teams

# ? Feb 15, 2023 17:58

Fart Amplifier: Apr 12, 2003

RealityWarCriminal posted:

You are denying these people their lived experiences. You are doing a no-growth.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

People's lived experiences often don't reflect reality, because people's lived experiences include things they imagine.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:11

Bellmaker: Oct 18, 2008; Chapter DOOF

I feel like there is a lot of overlap with ATOMS here, like with nuclear stuff most people don�t have any knowledge of chemicals and are going off of Doom Cloud Vibes.

Which of course ties into how awful our US education system is but I don�t have the time to go into that particular rabbit hole

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:12

Staluigi: Jun 22, 2021

Bar Ran Dun posted:

Have you ever looked at the local stories from people nearby to three mile island when it occurred. There are books that collected them.

They are remarkably similar. Stunning similar, even the images of things like fish kills and dead birds. Why?

this reminded me about a whole thing where deeply religious christians fed a steady diet of AIDS fearmongering during the early crisis could have wild psychosomatic reactions when they suspected exposure to a Gay. What happens to people near these kinds of incidents can be real bad but because it's "all mental" not likely to get compensated

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:13

Mr. Fall Down Terror: Jan 24, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

Fart Amplifier posted:

People's lived experiences often don't reflect reality, because people's lived experiences include things they imagine.

it was only a couple of weeks ago that we were dismissing the hell out of people's lived experiences when they were claiming the covid vax gave them seizures

what changed since then?

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:17

Oxyclean: Sep 23, 2007

Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:

it was only a couple of weeks ago that we were dismissing the hell out of people's lived experiences when they were claiming the covid vax gave them seizures

what changed since then?

And there was also ~~Helvetica~~ Havana Syndrome

But to be fair I feel like these two examples are far more crazy.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:20

Mr. Fall Down Terror: Jan 24, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

Oxyclean posted:

And there was also ~~Helvetica~~ Havana Syndrome

But to be fair I feel like these two examples are far more crazy.

sure, it's a lot more reasonable to assume some level of adverse reaction to environmental contamination in proximity to a massive honking derailment and chemical fire

it just seems that we lend credence to self-reported social media accounts of bodily harm due to chemicals based mostly on how much those reports conform to the political narratives we prefer to believe. nothing people have said ITT about not trusting the EPA couldn't also be applied to the FDA but it's different, for reasons, somehow

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:24

selec: Sep 6, 2003

Oxyclean posted:

And there was also ~~Helvetica~~ Havana Syndrome

But to be fair I feel like these two examples are far more crazy.

Man speaking of conspiracy theories, the way Havana Syndrome people were just straight up given money for it tells you a lot.

quote:

In response to Havana syndrome, U.S. Senator Susan Collins introduced a bill (S. 1828), co-sponsored by a bipartisan group of nine other senators, that would close a loophole in the Federal Employees' Compensation Act that would normally not cover damage to organs such as the brain and heart. The Helping American Victims Afflicted by Neurological Attacks (HAVANA) Act authorized the CIA Director and the Secretary of State to provide financial support for personnel with brain injuries.

Imagine the people of Palestine or Flint getting this kind of fast, near-unanimous support. You can�t! It�s absolutely not within the realm of reality. No war but class war, and you can really tell who�s winning.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:25

Youth Decay: Aug 18, 2015

Tired: the government exploded the train to distract from the UFOs
Wired: the government exploded the train to genocide the Amish
Inspired:

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:27

Jaxyon: Mar 7, 2016; I’m just saying I would like to see a man beat a woman in a cage. Just to be sure.

Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:

sure, it's a lot more reasonable to assume some level of adverse reaction to environmental contamination in proximity to a massive honking derailment and chemical fire

To people scared of vaccines, it's very reasonable to believe that a quickly rushed vaccine that isn't super effective, that's the first of a completely new type might be causing some adverse reactions.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:31

Aztec Galactus: Sep 12, 2002

It is literally never reasonable to believe that correlation is the same as causation

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:35

RBA Starblade: Apr 28, 2008; Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

Youth Decay posted:

Tired: the government exploded the train to distract from the UFOs
Wired: the government exploded the train to genocide the Amish
Inspired:

Of course, the EPA isn't the issue here - it's the CDC!

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:38

Jaxyon: Mar 7, 2016; I’m just saying I would like to see a man beat a woman in a cage. Just to be sure.

Dubar posted:

It is literally never reasonable to believe that correlation is the same as causation

We're talking about what people believe is reasonable not what is actually reasonable.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:39

bird food bathtub: Aug 9, 2003; College Slice

I'm not sure I understand why there is so much wailing and gnashing of teeth at the idea that people have lost faith in their government and don't trust anything it says no matter how right it may be. We're on the downward slope of 40 or 50 years of "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" being the rallying cry of one entire political party, and the response from the other party being "Yeah but how can we cut spending so the rich can more have tax cuts?"

No poo poo people aren't going to trust what is being said. That's not the culture we live in.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:41

Jaxyon: Mar 7, 2016; I’m just saying I would like to see a man beat a woman in a cage. Just to be sure.

bird food bathtub posted:

I'm not sure I understand why there is so much wailing and gnashing of teeth at the idea that people have lost faith in their government and don't trust anything it says no matter how right it may be. We're on the downward slope of 40 or 50 years of "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" being the rallying cry of one entire political party, and the response from the other party being "Yeah but how can we cut spending so the rich can more have tax cuts?"

No poo poo people aren't going to trust what is being said. That's not the culture we live in.

Is someone wailing and gnashing teeth or are some people just saying that the way it's presenting itself as far as some posters is basically indistinguishable from far-right cranks?

You can be aware of the problems with the government and still be dumb about it.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:47

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

That's exactly the problem I have with it. This endless concern-trolling that leftist critiques of the government are "in the style of" right-wing cranks or that we're "doing tropes" or whatever stupid bad-faith accusation.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:48

Gumball Gumption: Jan 7, 2012

Jaxyon posted:

Is someone wailing and gnashing teeth or are some people just saying that the way it's presenting itself as far as some posters is basically indistinguishable from far-right cranks?

You can be aware of the problems with the government and still be dumb about it.

It's also an obvious strawman to have people point at examples of where the EPA has lied or made mistakes in the past and then equate it to that they're saying the same thing as someone claiming this is a cover up to hide COVID deaths.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:50

Jaxyon: Mar 7, 2016; I’m just saying I would like to see a man beat a woman in a cage. Just to be sure.

Halloween Jack posted:

That's exactly the problem I have with it. This endless concern-trolling that leftist critiques of the government are "in the style of" right-wing cranks or that we're "doing tropes" or whatever stupid bad-faith accusation.

Then show how that implication is wrong, instead of just being mad about it.

Saying "yeah the government has major problems with capitalist corruption" is trivially true but also doesn't add much.

So far we have "a guy on twitter said a thing" and "I don't just the government". Cool. That's my crank aunt as well.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:51

Gumball Gumption: Jan 7, 2012

Remember how this whole thing kicked off from people arguing for better rail regulations and somehow that got them compared to people who think this was a plan to kill the Amish?

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:53

CuddleCryptid: Jan 11, 2013; Things could be going better

bird food bathtub posted:

I'm not sure I understand why there is so much wailing and gnashing of teeth at the idea that people have lost faith in their government and don't trust anything it says no matter how right it may be. We're on the downward slope of 40 or 50 years of "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" being the rallying cry of one entire political party, and the response from the other party being "Yeah but how can we cut spending so the rich can more have tax cuts?"

No poo poo people aren't going to trust what is being said. That's not the culture we live in.

The issue is the question then becomes "okay, you don't believe them, so what do you want to do?"

We need regulations on this. To establish the regulations we need these tests, but everyone running these tests is corrupt and faking data, so I have to get my data from somewhere else that isn't biased. Because I don't have anything other than a bad vibe I assume any data supporting the initial is corrupt, so I latch onto data that says the opposite. And that's how you get kids with measles. Don't forget that the entire "vaccines are evil because they cause autism" scare started because one doctor claimed that one vaccine can cause autism and readers then dismissed any data to the contrary as biased.

The organizations in question have the capacity to be corrupt but *no other organization is any better*. Even if you had a hundred thousand dollars in analytical equipment in your basement (so like two machines) and you determined that something was wrong, what possible reason would someone have to believe you?

It's not surprising that people are doubtful but at the same time they lack the perspective to demand actual solutions for the issue; they will move the goalposts as far as they need to go to justify their hostility. If the data is transparent and there is no logical reason to expect a conspiracy then the sane thing to do is to accept it at face value.

CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Feb 15, 2023

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:54

Papercut: Aug 24, 2005

Gumball Gumption posted:

Remember how this whole thing kicked off from people arguing for better rail regulations and somehow that got them compared to people who think this was a plan to kill the Amish?

I don't remember that, do you want to quote some posts?

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:54

Gumball Gumption: Jan 7, 2012

Papercut posted:

I don't remember that, do you want to quote some posts?

Oh goodness no, lunch break is over. You can reread.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:55

Jaxyon: Mar 7, 2016; I’m just saying I would like to see a man beat a woman in a cage. Just to be sure.

Gumball Gumption posted:

Remember how this whole thing kicked off from people arguing for better rail regulations and somehow that got them compared to people who think this was a plan to kill the Amish?

No could you point to the post where that happened?

Gumball Gumption posted:

Oh goodness no, lunch break is over. You can reread.

Oh.

"Do you own research!" I guess.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:56

Gumball Gumption: Jan 7, 2012

Jaxyon posted:

No could you point to the post where that happened?

Oh.

The quote posts game is a very dumb game and there is no one post but you can go back and follow the thread and see how it started out on train regulations and turned into accusations that everyone who has a problem with any of this is a conspiracy theorist.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 18:59

Gumball Gumption: Jan 7, 2012

Jaxyon posted:

Then show how that implication is wrong, instead of just being mad about it.

Saying "yeah the government has major problems with capitalist corruption" is trivially true but also doesn't add much.

So far we have "a guy on twitter said a thing" and "I don't just the government". Cool. That's my crank aunt as well.

Oh, found a post where everyone who disagrees is a conspiracy theorist. Sorry should have just done this.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 19:01

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 22:04

selec: Sep 6, 2003

Jaxyon posted:

Then show how that implication is wrong, instead of just being mad about it.

Saying "yeah the government has major problems with capitalist corruption" is trivially true but also doesn't add much.

So far we have "a guy on twitter said a thing" and "I don't just the government". Cool. That's my crank aunt as well.

�Antisemitism is the Marxism of fools� is a useful rubric here. I don�t trust the government because rich people own it, which comports with reality. Not trusting the government because of [things that cannot be verified] is silly, you got the what right, you completely hosed up the why.

But that�s no different from a lot of conspiracy theories �normal� people believed in. I mean, the evidence for the Iraq war was a conspiracy theory widely believed in! Just because a belief is mainstream doesn�t make it valid. Find me a conspiracy theorist and I�ll show you an American, regardless of ideology. It permeates our culture, it�s just that we don�t treat our intuitive theories as conspiracy theories, they�re just intuitively things that make sense, regardless of whether or not they�re true. Was Donald Trump an active Russian agent?

This reporting, of which there was a poo poo-ton, was conspiracy theories with a lawyer vetting them:

https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/shows/reidout/blog/rcna17328

https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/shows/maddow/blog/rcna45243

They have editors and lawyers to make sure the prose doesn�t get too purple, but there were even more egregious examples of �just spitballin� fantasizing about how owned by the Russians trump was live on air.

We live in a time of conspiracy theories, again, because everyone�s got an institution they should be able to trust but know better than to actually give that trust, because of their own experiences.

If you don�t like conspiracy theories I have bad news for you on how things go in declining states.

# ? Feb 15, 2023 19:01

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USCE Winter 2023: change thread titles constantly, almost on a daily basis

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