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John Edmund Rowlings, Nova Scotian diplomatic corps The Ayitian tribune's arguments are, to me, pre-eminent. Tribune O'Connor's arguments are by no means wrong, and by no means inaccurate. As such, it becomes a question of the present and the future -- creating problems tomorrow for us to solve today. We have ultimately had little trouble working with Mullerists and similar tendencies in the past, this is very true -- our Hungarian and Lithuanian comrades can attest to this. While Madam Sharqi's described system is certainly unique compared to those, it has no guarantee of remaining that way. The Marathans, as well, have been steadfast and consistent supporters of the cause of the Red Rose Pact despite not being formal members to this point. They have had no obligation to contribute as heavily to our war effort as they have, to the point of their leader risking her own life to command from the front in Lithuania where most of our own military was at loose ends to try and salvage the situation. Their specific ideals aside, Marathas' tangible, material dedication to the cause cannot be argued, and it would be a terrible shame to sacrifice that relationship and camraderie. But the intractable problem, which does not go away, is Marathas' own potential agendas. I cannnnnnnnnnnnnnkh- = = = =  HoI4 focus trees can turn into a right mess if they're too large; thankfully, this chunk of one is simple. The Marathas have taken the first option out of three, Against Fascism. This does not, however, lock them out of Against Liberalism or Against Capitalism -- there is no <!> marker that indicates mutual exclusivity. Furthermore, the dotted line underneath is an "OR" in focus-tree language, thereby indicating that either Liberalism or Capitalism needs to be taken in order to work on the naval tree in the middle. Again, no exclusivity, and no restriction on the items to the left and right. Thusly, there is nothing stopping the AI from selecting the three "Press" options if it wants to at some point. While I don't have a map of Marathas handy, based on the options on the right being Iran and Hindustan, "Demand Kashmir" has got to be Marathas' "Danzig or War" option with Ming China (in line with that tree being capitalism, since Ming has no real other ideology and the liberal Allies can at least claim democratic interest). So Marathas, if added to the Red Rose Pact, absolutely does have the focuses in its tree to drag us into war with both the WPO and the Allies. The question, as Nitaino put it, then becomes exclusively this: quote:Is she likely to do any of those things? I don't know. And I don't think any of you know, either. In my experience, HoI4 AIs WILL go through every option on their focus tree they can reach if allowed to do so, whether it makes sense or not. The question is when, not if. They also really, really like making use of their CBs, unless something has changed since I played last -- the Soviet Union, for instance, has no qualms about picking new fights while neck-deep in Nazis, and will merrily drag the rest of its alliance into it, which can be a gigantic pain in the rear end. As such, it can be assumed that Marathas WILL reach those foci at some point, and WILL make use of them to pick a fight with China, Iran, and Hindustan, though exactly what is UNDER those foci I couldn't tell you. It could be a Danzig or War where the other AI might have the chance of swallowing a really nasty poison pill to avert the war (which AI Poland will sometimes do), it could be a variant on that, or it could be a straight up "Marathas gets this Casus Belli" or an even MORE direct "you are now at war, no questions asked", which does exist in some trees (notably the Byzantine fascist side of the Greece tree in Battle for the Bosphorus has several). So as Nitaino said, it comes down exclusively to how the Marathan AI is weighted to pursue its focus tree and which options it takes. At the moment they appear to have beelined past the other political options here for the Red Rose Pact, and have to have spent a bunch of time in basically everything else instead since we're a good five years into the game by now. Will they go back into the rest of the tree instead of continuing to go for other International Communism options, possibly delaying kicking off a conflict in India until well after the LP's reasonable HoI4 time window? Or will they start in on it immediately and be picking fights with Iran or China inside of six months? We don't know. We have no idea what the AI's weighting is, or what its randomness factor will pick. As such, while in-character my feelings on Marathas joining are actually quite mixed, I can say mechanically that based on my existing knowledge, picking Marathas to join the RRP is guaranteeing a fight with the Allies or the WPO, or BOTH AT ONCE, at some point in the future. Is that something we really think we need? Is it something we want? Admittedly, China being left to just kick around as an ultracapitalist nightmare would be unconscionable, but if left to the AI, we will have far less control over the when and the how to make that move, if we make it at all. It will absolutely be bloody in one way or another. = = = = ssssssssss decision will, ultimately, be trying to mitigate bloodshed now with bloodshed in the future. And while to some degree that may be inevitable, at this moment, we can control the when and make that decision.
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Feb 15, 2023 00:59
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## Support the Scrappy Firebrand This is a very tough call, but it's hard to ignore their contributions to cause already.
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Feb 15, 2023 01:20
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##Support the Scrappy Firebrand says my partner and I what could possibly go wrong?
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Feb 15, 2023 01:25
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##Support the Scrappy Firebrand If we were going to kick out any authoritarian communist states we should have done so by now. I see no reason not to reject this particular authoritarian communist state over the ones that many good people have already fought and died over. Plus, like. We're almost certainly going to get into a fight with whoever wins the Jimao war ANYWAY. Why not make sure we're as strong as possible for that probably-inevitable fight?
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Feb 15, 2023 01:35
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AriadneThread posted:what could possibly go wrong? Now that is LP thinking.
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Feb 15, 2023 01:36
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## Support the Scrappy Firebrand Solidarity! Can any movement call itself socialist or communist if it doesnt practice solidarity?
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Feb 15, 2023 01:53
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## Support the Scrappy Firebrand Every gun pointed at fascism is needed.
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Feb 15, 2023 01:59
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## Support the Scrappy Firebrand
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Feb 15, 2023 02:21
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##Support the Charismatic Idealist Supporting the Marathas will just bring us into too many entanglements in the east.
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Feb 15, 2023 02:22
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##Support the Scrappy Firebrand In the end of all things, the world will go Red - Awash In Blood or United in Ideology, and we can only wait and see which it will be.
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Feb 15, 2023 02:28
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##Support the Scrappy Firebrand Also, obviously the epilogue game should be Cities: Skylines or some other period appropriate city builder.
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Feb 15, 2023 02:34
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paragon1 posted:##Support the Scrappy Firebrand I think you mean Workers and Resources: Soviet Republic
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Feb 15, 2023 02:38
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tatankatonk posted:I think you mean Workers and Resources: Soviet Republic
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Feb 15, 2023 02:42
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Is her name pronounced "Sharkey" because I think that might have some bearing on the decision
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Feb 15, 2023 02:54
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## Support the Scrappy Firebrand https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBE2D6aY8Fg
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Feb 15, 2023 03:08
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##Support the Scrappy Firebrand Every Marathan troop in the Near West is one not on their Eastern borders looking out. Draw them in.
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Feb 15, 2023 03:28
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Redeye Flight posted:
we the people demand a four way shitshow
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Feb 15, 2023 03:52
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##Support the Charismatic Idealist I am cynical about the Marathas regime's motivations - they must see some benefit in this alliance, and I suspect they plan to use it to drag us into their own conflicts. Conflict with the Ming may be inevitable, but I would rather it begin on our terms, rather than based on the whims of a Müllerist despot.
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Feb 15, 2023 03:53
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##Support the Scrappy Firebrand We must seize any opportunity to prevent further loss of life in this devastating conflict. The concerns of tomorrow over this alliance are just that, the concerns of tomorrow. The concerns of today are the millions of lives lost under the onslaught of the fascist beast.
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Feb 15, 2023 04:08
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Two members of the Hungarian delegation leave the proceedings, heads down, moving quickly to escape conversation. They stop near an alcove, shaded, spacious, and cooler than you'd expect, even in this weather. "Well, who's going to tell the boss?" "I'll do it. I've been with the party since '26. He'll trust me." "No, no, no, I'll do it. He hates me, but he hates it more when he gets rough news from someone he trusts. He'll fire you or worse." They hear footsteps. They both stand stock still, as if they want to blend into the laterite bricks. "You know, I don't think they're right - saying that she's just another socialist. Sure, we all have to make safeguards to protect our revolutions, but Sharqi-" "But what, Mária? It just means she plays hardball in home field. How would you play it if you had Ming for a neighbor-" "Don't patronize me with the baseball talk. Do you think that-" She turns her head to look around, whispers closer.  "Do you think that Juhasz or Nitaino or any of the other people in that room would do the things to their own parties that she did? Szabina, listen to me. How long has she been in power, now, ten, twelve years? How many Foreign Service people have we spoken to. Hungarian, Byzantine, whoever. We don't have a clue what's going on in her head, and now look at what she is asking us to do-" "Alliances are not all just free agents. They are methods of imposing restraint, not just guarantees of security." "And what the hell is this 'arme absolue' thing anyway? I've been asking around but it just makes the general staff look like they'll poo poo." "It's code." "Well, of course it is, really-" A low whisper. "Some kind of weapon. Gas, maybe, like the first great war." "Yeah?" "I ask the Byzantines about it and they go white." One of them sighs, and she looks vulnerable, as if taking off armor. "Right, you tell him." ##Support the Charismatic Idealist Pacho posted:
 GunnerJ posted:Is her name pronounced "Sharkey" because I think that might have some bearing on the decision What if it rhymes with Malarkey
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Feb 15, 2023 04:36
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##Support the Charismatic Idealist
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Feb 15, 2023 04:59
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Frankly, if it means we end up getting to wreck the Pangalists I'm actually OK with the alliance. Would be less pleased if it meant we ended up fighting the Allies instead.
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Feb 15, 2023 05:03
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## Support the Scrappy Firebrand. When the war began, Marathas didn't even wait for the RRP to ask for aid. Sharqi sent 20 divisions and her own children to protect an alliance she wasn't even part of. And now she's asking to join that alliance, and we're telling her, no thanks, your hat isn't quite the right shade of red for us?
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Feb 15, 2023 05:18
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## Support the Scrappy Firebrand -- Even if she does eventually drag us into war with Ming, it just means we can place the Allies in a weaker position than if they had won the war themselves. And if the Allies were going to lose their war, we're going to want all the help we can get when the arch-capitalists inevitably turn their greedy eyes west. And maybe this will give us enough influence over Sharqi to prevent her from doing something really stupid like entering the Jimao war on the worse side.
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Feb 15, 2023 08:12
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##Support the Charismatic Idealist
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Feb 15, 2023 08:32
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A thought seems to cross Rowlings' mind, and a look to match it settles over his battle-scarred face. "Uh, this information might not be available. But do we know exactly when the Marathas formally sent that expedition force to Lithuania?" Which is to say, if Nora has the information available either in a past save or past screenshots, do we know when Marathas picked that Expeditionary Forces focus that's right before Join The Red Rose Pact in the tree? That actually has a fair amount of weight both in and out of character, to me, as to how to interpret them asking to Join the Red Rose Pact now.
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Feb 15, 2023 09:10
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##Supportthecharismaticidealist Though for none ideological reasons. I appreciate that we must even on occasion rely on the help of Liberals when it comes to fighting Fascism, but I am more worried that the long term possibility of us not being able to smother the fascist monster because we are split between too many battlegrounds is a real problem. I would prefer if we could prevarivate for a while, say a few months, and then see how the bones lay. But I suppose that is not possible.
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Feb 15, 2023 11:35
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##Support the Scrappy Firebrand Let the bodies hit the floor.
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Feb 15, 2023 11:37
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##Support the Charismatic Idealist What exactly does Sharqi (and this is entirely Sharqi making this decision in her personalist people’s republic of one) have to gain from joining the RRP’s power to her own desires now? What exactly would be different than her actions, heroic as they are to the free peoples of Lithuania, have currently dictated up until this point? No, Sharqi aims to march on either the Ming or the Allies and wants the RRP to bolster her. In a time when the fascists of Paris are finally weakening, we can’t afford to split our attention.
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Feb 15, 2023 14:47
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Personally, I would really like it if we could not side with the pseudomonarchist dictator in this one. Especially what with the hellwar it promises.
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Feb 15, 2023 14:47
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##Support The Charismatic Idealist because he's hot
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Feb 15, 2023 14:57
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The really fun thing here is that I genuinely don’t know what the consequences of accepting or rejecting Marathas might be; when we were making the mod, a lot of the Marathas-related stuff was siloed off from me so that Sharqi would be a wildcard to me, the player. Like obviously I can look at the focus tree itself, but I have absolutely no idea how how things are weighted by the AI, how any event chains attached to it work, etc, etc. So there’s no dramatic irony here; anything could happen.
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Feb 15, 2023 16:26
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Echoes of  from LPs of old.
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Feb 15, 2023 17:59
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Empress Theonora posted:The really fun thing here is that I genuinely don’t know what the consequences of accepting or rejecting Marathas might be; when we were making the mod, a lot of the Marathas-related stuff was siloed off from me so that Sharqi would be a wildcard to me, the player. Like obviously I can look at the focus tree itself, but I have absolutely no idea how how things are weighted by the AI, how any event chains attached to it work, etc, etc. I love that you took the time and care in the modding process to make this woman a deranged mystery even to her creator.
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Feb 15, 2023 18:30
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The problem here is that there is a very visible consequence just from looking at the focus trees: they will attack the allies. It's not a question of "if." The HOI4 AI will take every focus it can if they are available. They will never not take it. They are going to do it and they are going to drag us into it, possibly even bringing us in on the side of the WPO. This is not a hypothetical, it will happen.
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Feb 15, 2023 18:51
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From what I've gathered in the lp discord, Marathas going to war with the allies is a matter of "when", not "if". So the question becomes, "can we get to an acceptable endpoint with the Imperial War before the game just decides 'OOPS, ALL FOREVERIALLY WAR!' for us?"
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Feb 15, 2023 18:53
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There is a non-zero chance that those focuses just cause events to fire that might lead to war instead of guaranteed leading to war. But they're capitalists anyway, so who cares?
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Feb 15, 2023 19:05
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Hellioning posted:There is a non-zero chance that those focuses just cause events to fire that might lead to war instead of guaranteed leading to war. If they select against liberalism first, it would have us coming in on the side of the pangalists against the allies.
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Feb 15, 2023 19:10
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The vote is going to close at 11:59 pm EST on February 17th. Hopefully that’s enough time to get all the debate and discussion done!
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Feb 15, 2023 19:29
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NewMars posted:If they select against liberalism first, it would have us coming in on the side of the pangalists against the allies. Pangalism has proven itself time and time again to be an unstable ideology in the long term when stressed, which it certainly has been! We leverage whats left of the rotting pangalist state to help sweep up the libs of the world, and then confidently swoop in when they collapse to revolution shortly after the war
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Feb 15, 2023 19:38
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