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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:It's true though. Dorkness Rising, and literally in the Wiki they say "they took 'artistic licensing' with feats and abilities and class features". Which of course means it was bullshit, but he remembered it and was like "D&D3.5 is a good system! It lets you be the smart fighter!" Pernicious propaganda imo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDCVSkiXL0Q Mirage posted:Does this guy also understand that losing that extra +2 in his primary stat also reduces his ability to get critical hits in most of his class-based actions by 10%? Pathfinder's die-rolling rules make +1's and +2's a lot more important than they were in D&D. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:That's not what he's doing. He wants to cast spells and those use his CHA. He literally made a Bard that's pretty bad at Bard'ing TTRPG marketing really loves to stress the flexibility of choice, and minimize how players do actually have to funnel themselves into a role and commit, and it leads to scenarios like this. Lots of "I don't want to be vanilla Dad I want to be myself." Glad to have started in on Pathfinder 2e though, because while it does take some more orientation, so far it feels much more supportive as a whole. Going to run a one-shot with prebuilt characters with players of varying experience (decades to first-timers) and seeing how they do with it.
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Feb 19, 2023 00:28
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Guy is not an idiot. He just has a very strong ideology about this. Like most people it's cobbled together from many sources and lacks internal consistency. Anyway, he just texted me and I guess the wizard player (mutual friend) called him up and said "forget about YOU dying from this nonsense. I'm a 1st level Wizard, I will be the one dying!" so now he's "rethinking his choices". I am sure it will work out fine.
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Feb 19, 2023 00:30
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if everyone is ok with it, it's fine and it's not a problem. if not everyone's ok with it then they need to not do it because it ruins campaigns by making either them personally miserable since their spells just won't land and encounters are too hard because you're down a party member, or the party miserable because encounters are too easy and it's boring, or it makes a ton of extra work for the gm to cater to their bad character. for whatever reason it's a problem. doing something "non-optimal" is fine, like using a battle axe as a fighter. purposefully making your character multiple levels behind in ability when you're not playing a silly gimmick play-a-lovely-character campaign is not fine.
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Feb 19, 2023 00:34
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I've got players who may be interested in the Extinction Curse Adventure Path. Has anyone run any of those? I'm curious to hear any thoughts on them. The primary appeal of being a circus troupe is great but I'm still deciding on which Path to eventually take some players down, and it's pretty hard to argue with Path of Thousands or Outlaws of Alkenstar.
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Feb 19, 2023 00:39
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Honestly, out of all of the classes to try to go against the grain on, Bard isn't the worst idea? Inspire Courage is Charisma agnostic without Lingering Performance. Multiclass into something martial-oriented, mostly cast spells that don't rely on Charisma (read: True Strike and buffs), and smash dudes with a guitar. Optimal? Eh. A detriment to the party? Probably not.
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Feb 19, 2023 00:40
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mind the walrus posted:I've got players who may be interested in the Extinction Curse Adventure Path. Has anyone run any of those? I'm curious to hear any thoughts on them. The primary appeal of being a circus troupe is great but I'm still deciding on which Path to eventually take some players down, and it's pretty hard to argue with Path of Thousands or Outlaws of Alkenstar. I haven't run it, but pretty much any time it comes up the first thing anyone says is that the circus rules aren't good, and the circus is kind of phased out very quickly, then you're just a party who used to be in the circus roaming around golarion saving the world. I hear it's not bad, just doesn't actually live up to the circus theme very well. I played books 1-5 of Strength of Thousands and thought it was great, a little "incrementalism, actually how you save the world" at times for my taste, but still good, and the mwangi expanse is a cool continent with a great lore book and you do get to sort of wander all over it. I wanted to run Alkenstar but the DM discussions on it are full of people talking about trying to fix it and not how great it is, which does not make me enthused. The idea is awesome though.
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Feb 19, 2023 00:47
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Froghammer posted:Honestly, out of all of the classes to try to go against the grain on, Bard isn't the worst idea? Inspire Courage is Charisma agnostic without Lingering Performance. Multiclass into something martial-oriented, mostly cast spells that don't rely on Charisma *narrator voice* He wanted to mostly cast spells that relied on Charisma.
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Feb 19, 2023 01:02
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mind the walrus posted:I've got players who may be interested in the Extinction Curse Adventure Path. Has anyone run any of those? I'm curious to hear any thoughts on them. The primary appeal of being a circus troupe is great but I'm still deciding on which Path to eventually take some players down, and it's pretty hard to argue with Path of Thousands or Outlaws of Alkenstar. M. Night Skymall posted:I haven't run it, but pretty much any time it comes up the first thing anyone says is that the circus rules aren't good, and the circus is kind of phased out very quickly, then you're just a party who used to be in the circus roaming around golarion saving the world. I hear it's not bad, just doesn't actually live up to the circus theme very well. M. Night has the right of it. The AP is actually solid, with a good throughline of theme and story, but if the main appeal to your players is the Circus then they'll get annoyed when the Circus stops being a focus after Book 2 and gets dumped in Book 4. If I were to run it again I'd definitely change the party to be Pathfinder Society, so that them investigating ancient ruins and then travelling around saving the world makes sense, unlike Circusfolk doing it three days travel from a city full of actual Adventurers who do that sort of thing professionally.
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Feb 19, 2023 01:39
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:So my second player has made a 14 CHA Bard. When I tried to talk him out of this he told me that Pathfinder 2e has "fake options" if he can't make a 14 CHA bard, and that it was possible to make an effective INT based Fighter in D&D 3.5E (he saw this in a movie). Min-maxing is the meta, but does a +1 or +2 really make that much of a difference? Losing a +1 to your DC is a 5% difference at level one, and just gets smaller from there. It isn't ideal, but I wouldn't think it is crippling. Especially if they are the sort of bard that focuses on buffing allies rather than damaging enemies. There's loads of bard spells that never use the DC. Instead of being a bard whose weakness is his 8 str, this guy's weakness is that he just isn't that great a bard magic. It isn't like 5E where you'll have a party of 8 Int morons wandering around because nobody is playing a wizard and Int is pretty useless for everyone else, in pathfinder every attribute is useful. Moving those points to other attributes means his character will be a little better at things bards aren't usually that good at. I would recommend going into assuming that your players are going to have fun. If you go into it all "you idiot, you moron, what did you think would happen if you didn't max out charisma?" it's definitely not going to be fun for anyone. Look at the things the character is good at, and try to find ways to reward those unconventional choices. He can be useful and 'win' even if he's the worst bard in the world.
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Feb 19, 2023 02:42
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+1 isn't just an extra 5% chance to succeed in PF2e, it's also a 5% chance to turn a success into a critical, and a 5% chance to turn a critical failure into a failure. All the +1 / +2 bonuses floating around are way, way stronger this edition Being down -2 in your main stat will gimp your character significantly unless you have a game plan Froghammer fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Feb 19, 2023 |
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Feb 19, 2023 02:47
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Facebook Aunt posted:Min-maxing is the meta, but does a +1 or +2 really make that much of a difference? Losing a +1 to your DC is a 5% difference at level one, and just gets smaller from there. It isn't ideal, but I wouldn't think it is crippling. Especially if they are the sort of bard that focuses on buffing allies rather than damaging enemies. There's loads of bard spells that never use the DC. Instead of being a bard whose weakness is his 8 str, this guy's weakness is that he just isn't that great a bard magic. Yes it makes a difference. No it is not “minmaxing” in the sense you mean it.
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Feb 19, 2023 02:47
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The crux of the problem with "I'm going to make a character who's really bad at things for (reasons)" is that pf2e is a team/communal experience, and signing up lug around a character who's can't contribute is a huge ask to the other people at the table, as well as the GM because the encounter math needs to be fudged if one of the characters has 10% less chance to hit and crit on any debuf or attack, along with being much less good at any out of combat things you'd expect from a bard: diplomacy, performance, deception, all the crucial social skills. Pf2e also really doesn't allow for characters to realistically do things that aren't in their mechanical wheelhouse, because it's just not possible math wise.
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Feb 19, 2023 03:24
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Bard is honestly one of the better classes for having your key ability subpar, compared to a fighter or something. Spam Inspire Courage and support spells like Soothe and Heroism and you'll contribute pretty well. The thing is just that a bard who didn't dump their Charisma for no reason would be able to do all of that too, just with the added benefit of getting to use saving throw spells and Charisma-based skill checks as additional options. This is why I actually liked it better when spell attacks were based on your Dex or Str in PF1e and 3.5e. It gave some actual reasons to be a spellcaster that didn't max out their spellcasting ability as much as possible, rather than it just being a blatantly 'wrong' decision.
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Feb 19, 2023 03:38
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M. Night Skymall posted:I haven't run it, but pretty much any time it comes up the first thing anyone says is that the circus rules aren't good, and the circus is kind of phased out very quickly, then you're just a party who used to be in the circus roaming around golarion saving the world. I hear it's not bad, just doesn't actually live up to the circus theme very well. I played books 1-5 of Strength of Thousands and thought it was great, a little "incrementalism, actually how you save the world" at times for my taste, but still good, and the mwangi expanse is a cool continent with a great lore book and you do get to sort of wander all over it. I wanted to run Alkenstar but the DM discussions on it are full of people talking about trying to fix it and not how great it is, which does not make me enthused. The idea is awesome though. Yeah reading up on the books that was the vibe I was getting, for both Extinction Curse and Strength of Thousands. Will have to figure out a good way to browse and dig into Paths before purchasing, because I do want to buy them but after getting burnt by 5e campaign books just... sucking a butt, I'm no longer leaping without a good look.
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Feb 19, 2023 03:45
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Extinction Curse is a good AP, but the circus thing is an initial hook that very pointedly goes away. I recall a conversation a priest was having with me during the AP where he was explaining that the fate of a large area rested upon our parties actions and my ringmaster character just half mutters to himself that he’s just trying to run a circus. Its a good initial hook, but at a point in the story you aren’t a circus anymore and the players could probably do with a little warning that that will happen.
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Feb 19, 2023 03:54
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mind the walrus posted:Yeah reading up on the books that was the vibe I was getting, for both Extinction Curse and Strength of Thousands. Will have to figure out a good way to browse and dig into Paths before purchasing, because I do want to buy them but after getting burnt by 5e campaign books just... sucking a butt, I'm no longer leaping without a good look. I use the discord server for the foundry PF2E system: https://discord.gg/pf2e Even if you don't use foundry or play on a VTT at all it's still one of the better places for pathfinder discussion. #ap-hub has threads on each of the existing APs and it's really useful for getting a feel for how people are liking DMing the APs, and find maps and fixes. Admittedly it's a little more useful for the more recent APs, since the discord server is fairly new, but there's discussion about all of them. The paizo forums are kind of dead, but sometimes the GM threads in the AP specific forums can be good.
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Feb 19, 2023 04:02
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Vanguard Warden posted:Bard is honestly one of the better classes for having your key ability subpar, compared to a fighter or something. Spam Inspire Courage and support spells like Soothe and Heroism and you'll contribute pretty well. The thing is just that a bard who didn't dump their Charisma for no reason would be able to do all of that too, just with the added benefit of getting to use saving throw spells and Charisma-based skill checks as additional options. what in the world, where are posts like this coming from
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Feb 19, 2023 04:06
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One of the two groups I GM for has a player running a Sprite Life Oracle who really wishes he was he was either a Monk or a Sorcerer. Dude has a 16 Charisma and focuses heavily on any attack based Divine spells he can get, which he often misses because low spell attack or save dc. Recently he has gotten himself some handwraps of mighty blows and has been attempting to get into brawls with things with his.. 12 Strength. No one in the group understands how he has made it to 5th level without dying and he refuses to take me up on respecs or just a straight up new character (had another player who swapped out their Gnoll Monk for a Leshy Psychic for a similar reason - ignoring their attacking stat and thus feeling fairly useless in combat) despite how frustrated he gets with it at times. If the group didn't have 5 pcs I'd fear that it would affect the other players, but for now it seems fine. That said the next campaign I run for this group I am going to enforce a strict GM Approval Required on everyone's builds to try and avoid this kind of situation. Wouldn't be too bad in most campaigns I feel, but we are running Abomination Vaults so most sessions are just pure dungeon delving and combat. Speaking of Adventure Path chatter, after having been running AV for two groups for over a year, I'm really looking forward to the campaign's end. AV has been a lot of fun, but recently there have been some really neat campaigns I want to do. Bloodlords is something I'd love to delve into and everything I've heard of the first book for Gatewalkers has me excited, though what we will probably end up doing is continuing on from AV and into Stolen Fate since that is an 11-20 and takes place not too far from where AV does.
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Feb 19, 2023 04:09
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Someone who wants to roleplay "Character who is bumbling/not as good as they would like to be/say they are" but are unable to do that without just mechanically loving up their ability to aid their other party members kind of just suck to play with more often then not because the characters rarely go anywhere other than just being bad at the thing they decided they wanted to be so everyone else kind of just suffers for it and it's a drag on the fun for everyone for what amounts to a one note bit.
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Feb 19, 2023 04:32
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it’s fun to be a professional chef with no lore cooking, it’s not fun to be a fighter with 12 strength because it’s your character concept
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Feb 19, 2023 05:20
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If you want to play a character that’s bad at something but tries to do it anyway sometimes that’s cool and good and fun, but also that character should also be good at something else and actually do that most of the rest of the time. Like, if you want to make a Champion with 8 Int who regularly tries to recall knowledge and gets poo poo wrong as a bit, but also is still good at being a Champion, that’s cool. The party can just ignore him when he repeatedly tries to tell them that this Water Elemental they are fighting is weak to acid damage. Don Quixote it up my dude. But, like, you’ve gotta be good at something to make that work. I think the fact that the 14 Cha bard player insisting that if the game didn’t allow it, then “pathfinder hates player choice/gives fake choices” is a key thing here. The truth is that pathfinder doesn’t lack for choices - but it does insist that you actually make a choice. 14 Cha on your bard means you are definitely spreading out boosts in such a way that you are mediocre at everything. You are actively refusing to make an affirmative choice for your character to be good at something. That doesn’t fly in this system. You have plenty of choices. But you have to make one.
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Feb 19, 2023 05:25
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Someone who wants to roleplay "Character who is bumbling/not as good as they would like to be/say they are" but are unable to do that without just mechanically loving up their ability to aid their other party members kind of just suck to play with more often then not because the characters rarely go anywhere other than just being bad at the thing they decided they wanted to be so everyone else kind of just suffers for it and it's a drag on the fun for everyone for what amounts to a one note bit. If you want to play a bumbling idiot who succeeds in unexpected ways, archetype into Unexpected Sharpshooter. But yeah, people just need to make competent characters. It's possible to heavily dump an important stat, you just need to understand what you're doing and play very differently. Facebook Aunt posted:Min-maxing is the meta, but does a +1 or +2 really make that much of a difference? Losing a +1 to your DC is a 5% difference at level one, and just gets smaller from there. It isn't ideal, but I wouldn't think it is crippling. Especially if they are the sort of bard that focuses on buffing allies rather than damaging enemies. There's loads of bard spells that never use the DC. Instead of being a bard whose weakness is his 8 str, this guy's weakness is that he just isn't that great a bard magic. Mathematically, they're going to be ~20% worse than a standard character on every roll that's dependent on until level 5, whereupon it presumably goes down to 10% worse. The problem is that's going to be a massive portion of their rolls unless they understand they're doing that, so they have to actually be getting something useful out of it. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Feb 19, 2023 |
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Feb 19, 2023 05:49
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Maybe some people like to play ttrpgs by being bumbling incompetents carried by their peers because that's what they've become accustomed to IRL.
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Feb 19, 2023 05:54
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drat some hot ball-breakers here
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Feb 19, 2023 08:15
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sugar free jazz posted:doing something "non-optimal" is fine, like using a battle axe as a fighter. Wait what's wrong with using a battle axe as a fighter? Taking a quick look:
Is there some other weapon that is just straight-up better?
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Feb 19, 2023 09:06
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VikingofRock posted:Wait what's wrong with using a battle axe as a fighter? Taking a quick look: the gnome flickmace meme probably, reach+flail type on top of sweep, going down to d6 is more than worth the trade
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Feb 19, 2023 09:09
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VikingofRock posted:Is there some other weapon that is just straight-up better? Literally any weapon in the hammer or flail groups, because that crit specialization is busted to the point where I honestly expect to see it get errata'd at some point. People have already gone into detail as to why plenty of times before, but the jist is that it's an even better version of both the firearm and sword effects combined. It's baffling that there's no saving throw involved. Even beyond that, a weapon with neither agile nor reach is pretty mediocre. Agile is pretty much a way better version of the sweep trait outside of using very specific feats like Swipe or Whirlwind Attack.
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Feb 19, 2023 09:49
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Toshimo posted:Maybe some people like to play ttrpgs by being bumbling incompetents carried by their peers because that's what they've become accustomed to IRL. Stop playing D&D with your boss
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Feb 19, 2023 12:06
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Vanguard Warden posted:Literally any weapon in the hammer or flail groups, because that crit specialization is busted to the point where I honestly expect to see it get errata'd at some point. People have already gone into detail as to why plenty of times before, but the jist is that it's an even better version of both the firearm and sword effects combined. It's baffling that there's no saving throw involved. My next campaign is going to house rule hammer/flail crit spec gets a reflex save similar to brawling/fire arms. We haven't had any gnomish flick maces, but basically every campaign has a fighter with a hammer/flail critting people onto the floor. I assume I'll just get 100% picks instead, but I'd prefer that to someone crits a combat grab and the fight's effectively over.
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Feb 19, 2023 15:21
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Vanguard Warden posted:Literally any weapon in the hammer or flail groups, because that crit specialization is busted to the point where I honestly expect to see it get errata'd at some point. People have already gone into detail as to why plenty of times before, but the jist is that it's an even better version of both the firearm and sword effects combined. It's baffling that there's no saving throw involved. yeah knockdown is extremely strong in this game.
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Feb 19, 2023 15:21
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mind the walrus posted:I've got players who may be interested in the Extinction Curse Adventure Path. Has anyone run any of those? I'm curious to hear any thoughts on them. The primary appeal of being a circus troupe is great but I'm still deciding on which Path to eventually take some players down, and it's pretty hard to argue with Path of Thousands or Outlaws of Alkenstar. I'm about to hop on to a voice call with my Extinction Curse group for our final session. We've played from level 1 to 11, and we're at the point where the module isn't much fun anymore. The circus rules are really dumb and we ended up ignoring them after 2 circus events, which made things much better. Part one was actually lots of fun, and being circus folk allowed us to play sillier characters than usual (except for one player who was the "straight man" and ended up being the accountant for the circus). Part two started to get a bit complicated, with us dealing with city politics a bit more, but then part three seemed like it lacked direction. Part one and two were tied closely to the circus and our personal connections to other people/places. Our motivations made sense, especially since we were dealing with things that were impacting our circus. Part two starts to lose focus, and part three seems completely detached from where we started, as we're trying to run a circus and keep that going, but then our attention is constantly being drawn elsewhere, and it's like "why is this group of carnies* travelling around Golarion and influencing powerful people?". We end up not being able to spend much time dealing with the circus so we feel like we're being forced to prioritize saving the world when our characters were built to keep a circus going. That's what they really want to focus on. All in all, we had a good run, but lost steam after part 2, so we're wrapping up the plot we're currently in and switching to Strength of Thousands. *I know it's because we're like selected by Arodin and have the blessing from the tower, but it's still weird!
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Feb 19, 2023 15:41
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I'm a new player to Pathfinder 2e coming from Dnd 5e and I'm curious about all the ability score talk. For my first character I made a wizard and ensured that my intelligence was 18 to start. Usually when I make a character, I like to basically randomize everything about my character, including rolling for race, class and using the deep background feature from the DMG. I then use Xanathars Guide from 5e to roll up a background story to work from. I rarely have any kind of concept and like to let the dice decide who I'll play for the next adventure. When I did this for my wizard originally my intelligence was only 16. Is that a huge disadvantage? I ended up fudging the deep background a bit to get to 18 intelligence because it is our first game. My table does not play in an optimized way so other characters aren't using meta builds that are overpowered, but they have concepts so their characters will have the main stat at 18. Basically, what I'm asking is if I roll a random character that ends up having a 16 in its main stat will I really be a detriment to my party or will I just be slightly worse? Once I get my concept from the initial dice rolls my level ups are always in a way to make my character stronger, I don't deliberately hamper myself past the initial rolls.
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Feb 19, 2023 16:49
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impossiboobs posted:I'm about to hop on to a voice call with my Extinction Curse group for our final session. We've played from level 1 to 11, and we're at the point where the module isn't much fun anymore. The circus rules are really dumb and we ended up ignoring them after 2 circus events, which made things much better. Part one was actually lots of fun, and being circus folk allowed us to play sillier characters than usual (except for one player who was the "straight man" and ended up being the accountant for the circus). Part two started to get a bit complicated, with us dealing with city politics a bit more, but then part three seemed like it lacked direction. Part one and two were tied closely to the circus and our personal connections to other people/places. Our motivations made sense, especially since we were dealing with things that were impacting our circus. Part two starts to lose focus, and part three seems completely detached from where we started, as we're trying to run a circus and keep that going, but then our attention is constantly being drawn elsewhere, and it's like "why is this group of carnies* travelling around Golarion and influencing powerful people?". We end up not being able to spend much time dealing with the circus so we feel like we're being forced to prioritize saving the world when our characters were built to keep a circus going. That's what they really want to focus on. Thank you so much for this insight. That was the impression I was getting. I'll look up the circus rules to see why they're finnicky, because yeah the core appeal of why anyone in my party would want to run it is circus-related. Maybe with modification. I've been stuck for literally 2 years in the absolute slog that's become D&D5e's Rime of the Frostmaiden, which ended up being so much extra GM work on my part to tie everything together as a narrative that we agreed as a party to wring every penny of enjoyment out of the campaign, and then my party proved to be extra slow at moving-- they're one of those groups that have the heart but they get disoriented easily and overthink things like "I want to use the rope to climb up to the next floor" no matter how many times I explicitly and kindly tell them they can just do it. My hope is that Pathfinder 2e's rules will make everyone, myself and them, feel more mechanically supported so there's less lock-up about options they can take. quote:*I know it's because we're like selected by Arodin and have the blessing from the tower, but it's still weird!
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Feb 19, 2023 16:52
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gurragadon posted:I'm a new player to Pathfinder 2e coming from Dnd 5e and I'm curious about all the ability score talk. For my first character I made a wizard and ensured that my intelligence was 18 to start. You shouldn't need to fudge anything to get an 18, backgrounds and ancestries come with at least one free ability boost you can put wherever. A 16 intelligence is playable (at 5-9 and 15-19 you'll even have the same stat bonus as someone who starts with an 18), but you're going to be worse at the things you're going to spend the majority of your time doing at those other levels. On 10% of your int-based actions you're going to be doing substantially worse, as what would be a hit turns into a miss, or what would be a crit failure on a save turns into just a regular failure Piell fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Feb 19, 2023 |
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Feb 19, 2023 17:01
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gurragadon posted:I'm a new player to Pathfinder 2e coming from Dnd 5e and I'm curious about all the ability score talk. For my first character I made a wizard and ensured that my intelligence was 18 to start. You will be worse, noticeably so until you get you first stat boost and even then you’ll be behind on progression for the basically single ability score you rely on to do everything Just max it out and then the only problem you’ll have to deal with is playing a wizard
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Feb 19, 2023 17:01
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Playing a rogue with 16 dex felt terrible the whole time.
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Feb 19, 2023 17:03
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Can animal companions do trips?
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Feb 19, 2023 17:08
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The Slack Lagoon posted:Can animal companions do trips? Yes
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Feb 19, 2023 17:09
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Piell posted:You shouldn't need to fudge anything to get an 18, backgrounds and ancestries come with at least one free ability boost you can put wherever. With the deep background feature, you roll on a table for your number of siblings which gives a corresponding boost to two ability scores. You don't get to pick a free one that way unless I'm reading it wrong, which is very possible. Edit: You also get an ability boost later in the deep background rolling for influential associate but that is another set score, not a free choice. Im really suprised that a +1 can be substantially worse too, but im glad I ended up just changed my intelligence to 18 for this run through. Is it just because of how the DC is set for enemies in this game? Harold Fjord posted:Playing a rogue with 16 dex felt terrible the whole time. What felt bad about it? Just your attacks never hitting? I've noticed with wizard casting any kind of damage spell seems pretty pointless so far and I'm best at buffing melee anyway. gurragadon fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Feb 19, 2023 |
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Feb 19, 2023 17:18
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The Slack Lagoon posted:Can animal companions do trips? why wouldn’t they be able to?
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Feb 19, 2023 17:23
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