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The true beauty of Breaking Bad — and maybe the single most important plot point to the show's themes — is that Walt was offered full payment for his treatment from his wealthy friends and he declines it out of pride and resentment. He's the idiot who left the company before they struck it rich. He's the idiot who was too angry and stubborn to use his talents with another company. He's not a victim of capitalism or the healthcare industry. He's just a privileged white guy who got stuck in the lower middle classes due to his own self-pity and his enormous ego. From the very beginning the show is telling you all of this, but Cranston is so phenomenal that you still root for him and sympathize with him because "failing to reach your potential" is something every single one of us can identify with. Honestly at least Tony has the excuse that he was born into this world. His moral compass is totally askew right from birth. The Sopranos works so well because it's a show that humanizes monstrous people. Tony is weirdly often trying to do "the right thing" despite his impulses but he's too hosed up and too far gone and in a position of power that is all contributing to his worst desires. The tragedy of the Sopranos is that, as it goes, Tony's therapy does nothing but make him a better mob boss and he just gives up all together on whatever conscience he had left. Walter White, meanwhile, is someone who had every chance in the world to be either successful or happy without a life of crime and he actively chose it anyway. He's absolutely one of those guys who watches The Sopranos and thinks Tony is aspirational instead of pathetic. It's funny that these two shows get discussed together so often. Maybe it's because one started a few months after the other ended. Tonally they're totally different though. BB is much pulpier and more plot driven with a focus on much fewer characters while Sopranos is a very intimidate character study that generally keeps both get feet planted in reality. But they're two shows about crime, toxic masculinity, capitalism, and insecurity. I think Mad Men is much closer to Sopranos in overall tone and themes which makes sense because Matthew Weiner, but that might also be why I find it more fun to compare and contrast Sopranos with BB instead.
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Feb 19, 2023 13:36
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Yeah. The first episode or two keep Walt pretty sympathetic as a decent enough guy in a horrible situation, but once the Gray Matter stuff is introduced it's very clear that the negative traits you saw in him earlier weren't flaws in an otherwise good man or ugliness brought on by stress and frustration, but rather the real Walt. Tony is, funny enough, arguably more of what the original elevator pitch of Walt is, in some respects. As you point out; Tony was born into the mob. Tony was given a lovely hand by fate. But we do see he has outs, at times, as do others around him. And even without leaving the mob entirely, we see times when he could do things in a somewhat more humane way that would not affect him all that much. I mean, hell, look at Johnny Sack: you don't have to be an adulterous piece of poo poo to be an effective mob boss - but Tony is. Tony is the person dealt a lovely hand by fate, given numerous chances to better himself to varying extents, and who nonetheless constantly chooses to sink deeper and deeper into the abyss. Walt, in contrast, is a man who dug the abyss himself. Tony was born into a hosed up situation and made it worse, but other than the cancer all the problems in Walt's life are of his own making.
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Feb 19, 2023 14:05
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BiggerBoat posted:On the other hand, he laid a totally vicious beat down on Benny and spat on him to boot after he kicked his rear end, exhibiting all the tough guy macho poo poo he wanted to lay on his frog eating French designer shoe wearing con artist with the broken answering machine. Not sure where he left that part of him when he wanted to collect his money but Artie hosed Benny up proper. Also features the great Artie line "We lead THE WORLD in computerized data collection!" Somebody probably rightly pointed out that Artie was embarrassed by the con artist but he wasn't mad at the con artist like he was at Benny.
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Feb 19, 2023 14:47
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I think it was that Benny hosed with the restaurant directly while the French dude just stole money from him.
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Feb 19, 2023 14:51
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Someone mentioned that "therapy made TOny a better mob boss" and I've always actually thought the opposite.
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Feb 19, 2023 14:57
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It's like Sun Tah-zoo says...
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Feb 19, 2023 15:07
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Jerusalem posted:It absolutely blows my mind that anybody could watch that scene and have their takeaway be,"Hell yeah, Don totally owned that guy, what an Alpha!" but then apparently they managed to do that about almost anything related to Don! I think it's kinda telling that I was looking for the "Tony takes Meadow to the church their ancestors built" scene on youtube and it's not on there They upload scenes where he's being an ogre to intimidate people, but not one of the few Good Dad moments he has.
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Feb 19, 2023 15:44
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The Vosgian Beast posted:I think it's kinda telling that I was looking for the "Tony takes Meadow to the church their ancestors built" scene on youtube and it's not on there similarly, i was trying to find the scene of carmela crying at a dog food commercial but it seems like the sopranos community on youtube is mostly interested in the male characters for some reason
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Feb 19, 2023 18:42
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I like Tony cuz Tony's the boss! 
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Feb 19, 2023 19:08
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The Vosgian Beast posted:I think it's kinda telling that I was looking for the "Tony takes Meadow to the church their ancestors built" scene on youtube and it's not on there https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI7YzBE5zAo This one? Of course they completely misinterpret it going by the title.
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Feb 19, 2023 19:13
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Man, I have no recollection of the Sopranos finale and the Breaking Bad premiere being less than a year apart, and I watched both live. That’s crazy.
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Feb 19, 2023 19:14
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ruddiger posted:Man, I have no recollection of the Sopranos finale and the Breaking Bad premiere being less than a year apart, and I watched both live. That’s crazy.
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Feb 19, 2023 19:18
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The Vosgian Beast posted:I think it's kinda telling that I was looking for the "Tony takes Meadow to the church their ancestors built" scene on youtube and it's not on there I think that might have been AJ that Tony was with in that scene
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Feb 19, 2023 20:43
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It is on YouTube, in Tiktok vertical form. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAF5xg-LIk4 I wouldn't really call it a good dad moment, he manages to turn it into a 'kids today' thing pretty quick, and he mostly just minimizes the work of the people that actually built the church. stev fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Feb 19, 2023 |
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Feb 19, 2023 20:47
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Vichan posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI7YzBE5zAo jesus christ
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Feb 19, 2023 21:02
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Futanari Damacy posted:I like Tony cuz Tony's the boss! Somebody saying "He's one of them hardnosed captain of industry types," but without irony.
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Feb 19, 2023 23:20
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stev posted:It is on YouTube, in Tiktok vertical form. It's trite, but I like to think this scene is about the production process and the gray zone that comes with it.
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Feb 19, 2023 23:37
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Some suit had final say on everything. Chase did his best to demonstrate his vision without getting pulled.
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Feb 19, 2023 23:40
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My father drove me past the house he grew up in East Orange once and it was my first exposure to white flight and urban blight. Nobody confronted us in the street.
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Feb 20, 2023 00:15
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Your Gay Uncle posted:I think that might have been AJ that Tony was with in that scene He tries to do it again several seasons later with AJ but AJ doesn't get it.
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Feb 20, 2023 01:03
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The bricks??  
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Feb 20, 2023 01:37
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Vichan posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI7YzBE5zAo the uploader and commenters do not deserve quality television
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Feb 20, 2023 02:43
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BiggerBoat posted:Someone mentioned that "therapy made TOny a better mob boss" and I've always actually thought the opposite. I watched a bunch of the Talking Sopranos (Michael Imperioli & Steve Schrippa's podcast rewatch of the show) on YouTube, and Schrippa I think asks David Chase that question exactly; Chase just goes "No...how would that even happen." The person said that probably because the scene early on in therapy where Tony says he gets 'good tips' or whatever that he uses in his activities/decisions.
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Feb 20, 2023 12:20
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knox posted:I watched a bunch of the Talking Sopranos (Michael Imperioli & Steve Schrippa's podcast rewatch of the show) on YouTube, and Schrippa I think asks David Chase that question exactly; Chase just goes "No...how would that even happen." Here's the post MokBa posted:
So maybe MokBa can weigh in on it. My take on the effect of therapy on Tony's effectiveness as a mobster is that, basically, proper mental health, empathy, self awareness, enlightenment, introspection, healing, honesty and just about all the things that it's designed to do simply don't jibe with the job demands and required mindset of a mafia member. Having a sensitive or empathetic side actually holds you back from the cruel, ruthless and fundamentally dishonest traits one needs to have for this work. We're shown this conflict a lot throughout the series and I honestly think that whatever "softening" Tony embraced (or whatever one chooses to call it "Progress") actually contributed to his downfall and frequently disrupted his decision making. I guess one could argue that the article Melfi reads late in the series supports the idea that Tony has been benefiting from the sessions by only seeking out ways to be manipulative at his job, but even if that's true I don't think it actually WORKED.
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Feb 20, 2023 12:43
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I don’t think Tony improves during the show. Looking back at the last season, his moment of realization in Vegas after Christopher’s death doesn’t come off as genuine, and his repeated insensitivity and cruelty to Carlo sets him up for the downfall that awaits him after the finale—or would await him if he wasn’t dead.
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Feb 20, 2023 12:54
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Well in my defense it was something I’ve read a couple times and just internalized. Happy to be proven wrong though. My assumption was Tony occasionally using techniques learned in therapy to control his crew but I can’t list any specific examples. If Chase says it’s bullshit then it’s probably bullshit.
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Feb 20, 2023 13:20
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The hustle never ends still plays games with my head.
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Feb 20, 2023 13:33
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Or maybe it's its own rationalization? Maybe the grey area is the point.
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Feb 20, 2023 13:41
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MokBa posted:Well in my defense it was something I’ve read a couple times and just internalized. Happy to be proven wrong though. My assumption was Tony occasionally using techniques learned in therapy to control his crew but I can’t list any specific examples. If Chase says it’s bullshit then it’s probably bullshit. Oh, he did for sure. I just don't think they really worked well is all.
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Feb 20, 2023 13:41
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Sometimes things learned in therapy would help him out short term at his job. Like in the first season when Melfli tells him to treat elderly people sort of like children, give them the illusion of control. This actually works with Junior for a while, but then it makes Junior’s reaction all the worse when he finds out that he was manipulated for so long.
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Feb 20, 2023 15:07
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BiggerBoat posted:Oh, he did for sure. I just don't think they really worked well is all. People being exposed to new and complex ideas and only half-understanding them is a running thing in the show—I don’t know if the parallel is intentional but Paulie listening to Art of War on tape comes to mind. Or the dinner-table arguments about whether old books have gay themes, where the parents reject the idea because it makes them uncomfortable. Tony’s selfish and impulsive ways win out over any progress he might make with Dr. Melfi time and again.
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Feb 20, 2023 15:54
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I mean if nothing else, not blacking out from anxiety attacks is a pretty big help and makes you more effective at basically anything and everything, including being a mob boss. Anxiety attacks loving suck. EDIT: Yeah, and also one of the things the show does right is show that therapy is hard. They often say that the hardest thing is asking for help, and maybe for people with big egos that can be true, but even once you've made the choice to ask for help, therapy can be really loving hard. You have to really commit and be willing to be honest and vulnerable that is difficult, not to mention other stuff involved. Tony, to his credit, deserves kudos for taking that difficult first step and acknowledging the need for help. Of course like anything and everything else, yeah, he made that (admittedly difficult) token gesture and then quit. He was never willing to commit to therapy the way you need to in order to make it anything more than a weekly dose of catharsis. RoboChrist 9000 fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Feb 20, 2023 |
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Feb 20, 2023 15:59
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For the therapy to actually work, Tony would have had to stop being a mob boss. That wasn't something he was going to do, so of course therapy really doesn't help. You can't talk your way out of a material condition.
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Feb 20, 2023 17:23
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Kemper Boyd posted:For the therapy to actually work, Tony would have had to stop being a mob boss. That wasn't something he was going to do, so of course therapy really doesn't help. You can't talk your way out of a material condition. I don't think that's necessarily true. But Tony makes it true, and then pretends he doesn't.
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Feb 20, 2023 17:33
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I always wanted to see Tony under hypnosis tbh
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Feb 20, 2023 18:43
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Let's ratchet this up another level: Is Melfi a good therapist?
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Feb 20, 2023 19:57
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Absolutely not
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Feb 20, 2023 20:41
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toodle-oo
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Feb 20, 2023 21:56
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Oh, we’re makin’ small talk now?
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Feb 20, 2023 22:08
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Not those fuckin’ ducks again.
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Feb 20, 2023 22:18
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