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Siivola posted:Making martials interesting would require either overhauling the entire combat engine or making a big list of special abilities, and neither hangs particularly low. Martials being kinda boring in combat is the least of their problems.
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Feb 20, 2023 17:56
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moths posted:A lot of people are overthinking this. My question is, who's out there asking for… whatever Kobold's put out?
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Feb 20, 2023 17:56
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Siivola posted:Nobody thought 3.5 was flawless, and Paizo made a whole deal about improving it. They fiddled with known bad parts, like cross class skills and classes having no abilities and uhhh grappling. It was all incredibly low effort and ultimately entirely meaningless stuff, but they did change things and they made sure to tell everyone about it. D&D YouTubers who increased their subscriber base off of OGL drama videos
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Feb 20, 2023 17:58
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Lumbermouth posted:D&D YouTubers who increased their subscriber base off of OGL drama videos I haven't looked, but I'm sure there's a multitude of "Black Flag DESTROYS WotC at their own game." Videos bring pumped out where they hyper focus on one things or the laud KP as innovators for... Doing nothing but phrasing it as "giving players more options" And then there are certainly counter videos of 'is the hobby DOOMED?" where they haro on the lack of iteration as an instance of the space being out of ideas and stagnating to death because 5e is perfect and now it's all going to die.
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Feb 20, 2023 18:17
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Black Flag was always supposed to be "5e but free" though wasn't it? I feel like if anyone was expecting a huge divergence or innovation, that's on them.
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Feb 20, 2023 18:27
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Zurai posted:Not very. They spiced up the classes a bit and condensed some skills, but otherwise they're pretty close. The big Pathfinder innovation was replacing prestige classes with archetypes, and that didn't happen until the Advanced Player's Guide. And those are just an evolution of the Kits from 2e's brown books.
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Feb 20, 2023 18:27
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Siivola posted:Nobody thought 3.5 was flawless, and Paizo made a whole deal about improving it. 
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Feb 20, 2023 18:31
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Siivola posted:My question is, who's out there asking for… whatever Kobold's put out? Yeah, this feels to me like an idea they had when OneD&D was announced that they then put into motion when the whole OGL went down, but have not revised since. OneD&D already looks like it's not moving away from base 5e any more than I'd expect Black Flag to, and with the SRD now in creative commons, there's no need to have a new brand to point to for compatibility. And if you want a 5e with more depth, Level Up already has you covered. And while I've seen a few people excited about what they saw in the playtest, I feel like I'm seeing reactions like "that's all you're doing?" and "this is a rushed sloppy mess" more, so it already doesn't seem like it's going to have the hype and support to be another Pathfinder. I'm honestly wondering if they'll course correct.
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Feb 20, 2023 18:35
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Shrecknet posted:pretty sure you're getting whooshed because
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Feb 20, 2023 18:38
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Well that's saying a lot about the industry right there. Thinking harder, it's closer to when (I think) Mongoose put out their own softcover version of the 3x PHB that was half price and meant to directly replace the WotC one for cheaper nerds.
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Feb 20, 2023 18:46
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Tibalt posted:5E at the very least could use a good second pass with the editor's pen, As long as Jeremy Crawford is the person holding that pen, it's doomed to fail. He is so bad at interpreting 5e RAW that it gives me a headache. I am willing to possibly give him the benefit of the doubt because he's interpreting a set of rules written by whatever committee was managed by Mearls, but other stuff edited/produced by Mearls isn't nearly as bad, so I still come back to thinking Crawford just sucks. Siivola posted:Nobody thought 3.5 was flawless, and Paizo made a whole deal about improving it. They fiddled with known bad parts, like cross class skills and classes having no abilities and uhhh grappling. It was all incredibly low effort and ultimately entirely meaningless stuff, but they did change things and they made sure to tell everyone about it. From what I remember, Pathfinder was marketed as not just an improvement to 3.5 (which they certainly tried to do), but primarily as nothing like that other crap called D&D 4e.
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Feb 20, 2023 18:52
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Finster Dexter posted:As long as Jeremy Crawford is the person holding that pen, it's doomed to fail. He is so bad at interpreting 5e RAW that it gives me a headache. I am willing to possibly give him the benefit of the doubt because he's interpreting a set of rules written by whatever committee was managed by Mearls, but other stuff edited/produced by Mearls isn't nearly as bad, so I still come back to thinking Crawford just sucks.
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Feb 20, 2023 19:00
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I think having something like Black Flag lets Kobold Press create more of its own ecosystem of products, which it has pretty much everything else in, their own adventures, monster manuals, supplements, etc.
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Feb 20, 2023 19:04
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Finster Dexter posted:From what I remember, Pathfinder was marketed as not just an improvement to 3.5 (which they certainly tried to do), but primarily as nothing like that other crap called D&D 4e. Edit: On a related note, I just found out the "Wizards Presents" pre-4E books are available on DM's Guild. Neat! Siivola fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Feb 20, 2023 |
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Feb 20, 2023 19:05
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Tibalt posted:...Yes, which is why I said it in relation to the new Black Flag game, and why 'Just non-WOTC 5E' isn't really an acceptable defense for the produce they're putting out. Even most B/X retroclone uses modern layout, editing, and graphic design instead of just printing the basic set with the TSR logo and Erol Otus art covered up with white out. Ah sorry, I misunderstood your context.
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Feb 20, 2023 19:08
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Finster Dexter posted:As long as Jeremy Crawford is the person holding that pen, it's doomed to fail. He is so bad at interpreting 5e RAW that it gives me a headache. I am willing to possibly give him the benefit of the doubt because he's interpreting a set of rules written by whatever committee was managed by Mearls, but other stuff edited/produced by Mearls isn't nearly as bad, so I still come back to thinking Crawford just sucks. Mearls is a complete enigma to me. On one hand he was the lead guy on the MM3 from 4th that fixed a ton of the monsters and was a really solid book. On the other hand he said that 4e was not designed at all how he would have wanted "Hard to answer, because the 4e I wanted to do and the 4e we ended up publishing were different on a fundamental level. I wanted classes to have different power acquisition schedules, and more thematic ties between power types." which leads me to believe he is responsible for a lot of the unbalanced garbage we got in 5th. I am not sure how magic the gathering has changed with him being the director of game design now that he was banished from D&D for enabling creeps.
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Feb 20, 2023 19:21
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Vire posted:I am not sure how magic the gathering has changed with him being the director of game design now that he was banished from D&D for enabling creeps. LOL from what I can tell from my friends who are very online with mtg, not for the better. I haven't played arena in a while, but the toxic keyword is going to be pure unmitigated bullshit for a few months, I think.
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Feb 20, 2023 19:25
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Mearls made Iron Heroes Which is to say: I think he's an incompetent designer, but the ways in which he's incompetent don't always line up 1:1 with the flaws (or conflict with the good ideas) in 4E and 5E. It's a little more oblique than that. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Feb 20, 2023 |
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Feb 20, 2023 19:25
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The challenge is creating new rules and systems to make the game more fun/tactical/balanced/etc that don’t make it too complicated or break any of the stuff you didn’t change. And the tendency is to be incremental because if you make your own “5E” but it is so different it looks nothing like 5E, you’re just creating your own system. Plus, anything you do to, say, give martials more choices and abilities is going to be at least somewhat arbitrary. Here’s an incomplete list of possible options: Add a second archetype-like structure based on weapon specialization or power source (rogue dagger master, fighter swordmaster, barbarian who taps into elemental earth with his attacks). Add abilities to existing archetypes. Give all martials maneuvers and/or higher-level maneuvers. Create a mechanism to regain maneuver dice during combat. Or, make these new maneuvers work like spells do. Eliminate certain feats from the game and make them martial class abilities (like Sharpshooter/GWM/Polearm Master). Give martial classes abilities that work like legendary actions: choose one from this list to do after another person’s turn ends. These don’t take reactions. Or give martials extra reactions and new abilities that they can do as actions. Start all martials with a legendary weapon, shield, or suit of armor that gains powers as they level up. Some of these options take a lot more work than others. Many of them don’t address the “martials outside of combat” issue, though some do. All of them operate as add-ons; it’d be a completely different thing to add a full system for adjudicating social situations and then granting abilities related to that system to martials. Or doing the same with exploration mechanics. The tendency is going to be to rules that can be pasted on to existing 5E structures over completely new systems or dynamics. That’s why “new spellcasting class with new spell list that mostly works like existing casters but with new spells” is always going to be easier than “new class that is specialized at using this new system we designed, but which other classes can also use.”
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Feb 20, 2023 19:48
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On a slightly different note, I think the D&D movie is actually going to be decent, tbh: https://twitter.com/DnDMovie/status/1627669414056275968
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Feb 20, 2023 20:06
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Megazver posted:On a slightly different note, I think the D&D movie is actually going to be decent, tbh: Looking forward to Guardians Of The Sword Coast
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Feb 20, 2023 20:28
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Lamuella posted:Looking forward to Guardians Of The Sword Coast That is not a bad thing, if it's roughly at the same quality level as GotG 1&2.
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Feb 20, 2023 20:30
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Oh not at all. Probably the best way to sell a d&d property.
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Feb 20, 2023 20:57
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I read some interview with the directors about how they won't be doing any "meta" jokes where they zoom out to the tabletop or whatever, that it's done entirely in universe, and their rationale was basically that it'd be dumb to zoom out to "some kids playing." All I could think was if anyone had the market research at their fingertips about what the actual age demo for these games is, it'd be their staff.
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Feb 20, 2023 22:25
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theironjef posted:I read some interview with the directors about how they won't be doing any "meta" jokes where they zoom out to the tabletop or whatever, that it's done entirely in universe, and their rationale was basically that it'd be dumb to zoom out to "some kids playing." All I could think was if anyone had the market research at their fingertips about what the actual age demo for these games is, it'd be their staff. I have said for years that even the original D&D movie could have been saved by some cut-outs to the actors around a big table in Jeremy Irons's castle, with Irons as the melodramatic dungeon master. <Snails dies> Whalin: "Finally. No offense, man, but I hated that character." Irons: "Ridley! Snails was your best friend. You grew up together! Think of everything you've been through. Think of how many times he's saved you from dying!" Wayans: "…I'm going to admit Snails wasn't my best character idea." Irons: "You were still friends." Whalin: "Fine." <Whalin throws his hands up in mock anguish> "Nooo…" <Cut back to in-game world> Ridley: <on his knees, arms raised to the sky> "…oooo!"
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Feb 20, 2023 22:46
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theironjef posted:I read some interview with the directors about how they won't be doing any "meta" jokes where they zoom out to the tabletop or whatever, that it's done entirely in universe, and their rationale was basically that it'd be dumb to zoom out to "some kids playing." All I could think was if anyone had the market research at their fingertips about what the actual age demo for these games is, it'd be their staff. The lego movie would like a word... Cassius Belli posted:I have said for years that even the original D&D movie could have been saved by some cut-outs to the actors around a big table in Jeremy Irons's castle, with Irons as the melodramatic dungeon master. ha. I love this.
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Feb 20, 2023 22:48
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Lamuella posted:Looking forward to Guardians Of The Sword Coast That would be so many steps up in quality than what I expected it would probably be the most profitable DND product ever made.
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Feb 20, 2023 22:50
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Mearls made Iron Heroes
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Feb 20, 2023 22:52
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Froghammer posted:Was Armiger the one that only functioned if enemies attacked you but didn't have any way to encourage enemies to attack you / discourage enemies from ignoring you? yup
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Feb 20, 2023 22:52
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theironjef posted:I read some interview with the directors about how they won't be doing any "meta" jokes where they zoom out to the tabletop or whatever, that it's done entirely in universe, and their rationale was basically that it'd be dumb to zoom out to "some kids playing." All I could think was if anyone had the market research at their fingertips about what the actual age demo for these games is, it'd be their staff. Just watch. The mid-credits bit will be a post-game-night bit with the actors around a table.
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Feb 20, 2023 22:54
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ConanThe3rd posted:Just watch. The mid-credits bit will be a post-game-night bit with the actors around a table. Imagine the collective nerd-gasm if it's the actual GotG cast in costume and makeup around the table.
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Feb 20, 2023 23:01
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Megazver posted:On a slightly different note, I think the D&D movie is actually going to be decent, tbh: Tbhd this just seems like a marvel movie got reskinned into a different property, like this clip suuuuucks
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Feb 21, 2023 00:01
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W/R/T Black Flag: it might be worth giving the product more than one playtest packet before crucifying it as a complete 5e retread. I can't imagine* that it will be a drastic revision, but I suspect there will be more to the rules than the 5e SRD. *-I've regularly freelanced for KP, but I have no insight into Black Flag.
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Feb 21, 2023 00:04
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I agree, but I wish they released that "more to it" first, y'know? You only get one shot at a first impression and its hard not to feel bad that they lost a bunch of hype on such a tepid one.
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Feb 21, 2023 00:40
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black flag is going to be a flop
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Feb 21, 2023 01:03
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the reason for this is that there is no ongoing impetus for it to exist. whereas pathfinder was a reaction to the ongoing 4e line and it's deviations from what was the norm for d&d, black flag does not have that. the moment wotc decided to reverse course wrt the srd, black flag lost any sustaining reason to exist (especially give that 5.1 is already in development).
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Feb 21, 2023 01:10
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Beaten, but yes. They positioned themselves on a rake handle and waited for WotC to step on the business end, catapulting Black Flag into success. Which wasn't a terrible strategy! But Wizards overcorrected and - look, gamers will forgive loving ANYTHING if it means not having to learn a new game.
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Feb 21, 2023 01:19
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shades of blue posted:the reason for this is that there is no ongoing impetus for it to exist. whereas pathfinder was a reaction to the ongoing 4e line and it's deviations from what was the norm for d&d, black flag does not have that. the moment wotc decided to reverse course wrt the srd, black flag lost any sustaining reason to exist (especially give that 5.1 is already in development). The only audience for black flag is people very attached to and pretty uncritical of D&D 5e the system but also mad enough at WotC to go full "We have D&D at home". PF was the only option to play new 3.x, while 5.x is still right there. And even then 4e still took pathfinder to the cleaners when it comes to actual sales. If WotC/Hasbro had stuck to their guns on the OGL 2.0 this might have become a thing but the Venn diagram of "people who think 5e is basically just fine, maybe a little spit and polish" and "people who still care about the OGL 2.0 thing, if they ever really heard about it at all" is not exactly a solid circle. Splicer fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Feb 21, 2023 |
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Feb 21, 2023 01:23
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They still have a chance if One decides to depart radically from 5E, but frankly its playtests are only about as different as Black Flag's has been. And the fact that Black Flag is pushing "feats but named differently" and "humans can be Mountain Dwarves" as big deal highlights in their interviews, instead of saying the best is yet to come, is . . . less than inspiring, tbh. I don't want to write them off. Especially when the strategy moths mentions keeps paying off gangbusters for Paizo. But they need to give people reasons to support them, and literally anything would've been better than what they showed off.
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Feb 21, 2023 01:43
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The Bee posted:They still have a chance if One decides to depart radically from 5E, but frankly its playtests are only about as different as Black Flag's has been. And the fact that Black Flag is pushing "feats but named differently" and "humans can be Mountain Dwarves" as big deal highlights in their interviews, instead of saying the best is yet to come, is . . . less than inspiring, tbh. I mean, at the point KP is billing an inverse WotC. Instead of sweeping changes everyone hates they're just... codifying homebrew? And the reaction to their release has been so lukewarm that if the next drop doesn't throw some punches, theyre liable to burn the goodwill they've established. What I've seen already reads as knee jerk "put something out while WotC is do pressers to prevent people from going back." The problem is, peopel going back doesn't hurt KP, it puts them back where they were 2 months ago, but in a better spot since the OGL stuff that mattered is just open CC. If anything, they're able to do more with them accidentally dumping a bunch of IP into CC. But instead they're going, hey we're gonna make PF2 for fifth edition but worse because we won't actually retool the system to work that way. Have a bunch of feats instead. Also, feats are still, even in their 'retooled' system still an optional rule. It's baffling. I'm sure closing out and being in the middle of two Kickstarters isn't helping their focus any either.
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Feb 21, 2023 03:05
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