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SideEffectShit
Oct 10, 2022

by Pragmatica

The Demilich posted:

Only the ignorant or morally repugnant could ever be proud of America.

quite a story imo

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PoontifexMacksimus
Feb 14, 2012

Mandoric posted:

I think there's a distinction to be drawn between the "one swift kick" principle and an approach based on the US's own against Spain over in large part the same claims, to be honest. Less hope of an actual collapse, more hope of untenable colonies being cut loose.

That said, I'd argue that Japanese participation in the war was less paved by it being perceived as winnable and more by its root cause being a solution to an untenable domestic political situation. The right-liberal response in Japan to out-and-out fascism was to co-opt, rearrange, and attempt to ride it; war with the Anglos was inevitable given the untenability of basic industry under the Anglo oil blockade, which in turn was inevitable given atrocities in China, which in turn were inevitable given the idea of letting the burgeoning ranks of disaffected petty bourgeois and lesser aristocracy work out their frustrations on Chinese civilians, which in turn was the only thing that dissuaded them from pursuing open civil war instead.

From that perspective, those who made the final call achieved their objectives swimmingly--the explicitly fascist right was cleaned out by force of primarily Soviet arms, the left by occupation forces, the old conglomerates were suppressed for a while but eventually regained their place, and the longest-serving Japanese PM by a factor of over 50% was the grandson of the Devil of Showa.

Quoting this for later reference

PoontifexMacksimus
Feb 14, 2012


https://twitter.com/inhofejack/status/1627676090532503553?t=A1-5IAR2s2zFdH0huFAYMg&s=19

PoontifexMacksimus
Feb 14, 2012

Frosted Flake posted:

A little late to Japan chat but if you read the Barrier and the Javelin, about their campaigns in 1942, they had no idea the British, Dutch and Americans would give way like that. The IJA was supposed to be a sideshow why the IJN waited for the climactic battle and instead overnight their reconnaissance detachments were seizing oilfields almost without a fight. They had no idea that they were going to get all the way to Rangoon, or New Guinea, let alone Manilla, within the first months of the war.

In hindsight people either don’t discuss their overwhelming successes, or compare it to Blitzkrieg, but really it was practically by accident and they had to do some really crazy planning to reroute troopships on the fly as the places they were supposed to land at had already fallen.

Speaking of Willmott's The Barrier and the Javelin, I always see it mentioned as part of a "trilogy" with Empires in the Balance as the first part, but haven't found any mention of which of his later books if any was part 3... was it a dead project?

Bar Ran Dun
Jan 22, 2006




holy poo poo Biden went to Kyiv.

Centrist Committee
Aug 6, 2019
would lol if brandon turns out to be one of those emperors who loses a standard on the frontier

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010

he'll be like that emperor who was captured by the persians and they didn't bother to get him back

Centrist Committee
Aug 6, 2019
that’d be funny too

Cerebral Bore
Apr 21, 2010


Fun Shoe
the us having their own tumu crisis would be p funny

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Russian television using Biden's head as a stage prop

Cuttlefush
Jan 15, 2014

gotta have my purp
i wish

Relevant Tangent
Nov 18, 2016

Tangentially Relevant

who will win ww3?

Cuttlefush
Jan 15, 2014

gotta have my purp
well, if you're right and nuclear war isn't real, i'm more than willing to say you won. if you're wrong, nobody. either way, it wont be the united states

KomradeX
Oct 29, 2011

Relevant Tangent posted:

who will win ww3?

The dead

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Relevant Tangent posted:

who will win ww3?

The stick and stone merchants

indigi
Jul 20, 2004

how can we not talk about family
when family's all that we got?
these fuckin nutz

Relevant Tangent
Nov 18, 2016

Tangentially Relevant

if nobody thinks they'll win then world war three seems unlikely to happen

croup coughfield
Apr 8, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 75 days!

Relevant Tangent posted:

if nobody thinks they'll win then world war three seems unlikely to happen

definitely

croup coughfield
Apr 8, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 75 days!
every time i crack open a history book the thing that really stands out to me are all the rational actors

Cuttlefush
Jan 15, 2014

gotta have my purp
war cant happen to me, im the main dude

Relevant Tangent
Nov 18, 2016

Tangentially Relevant

"war happens because at least one side thinks they'll win" doesn't seem controversial

croup coughfield
Apr 8, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 75 days!

Relevant Tangent posted:

"war happens because at least one side thinks they'll win" doesn't seem controversial

goons dont set national policy anywhere

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

croup coughfield posted:

goons dont set national policy anywhere

we got trump elected

fanfic insert
Nov 4, 2009
what if its "if we go now we have a small chance of winning but if we wait we definitely lose" ?

croup coughfield
Apr 8, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 75 days!
its true that no one goes to war unless they think they have a chance to win. do not confuse this for an ability to accurately assess those chances

Hatebag
Jun 17, 2008


Relevant Tangent posted:

if nobody thinks they'll win then world war three seems unlikely to happen

There are definitely crazies who think ww3 is survivable for them personally. Missile defense is probably fake other than launching small yield counter-nukes to defend a city which may well be the plan but i bet there's some freaks who think the us could do a sneak nuke sub attack on say china's ground based nukes and they're willing to roll the dice on their own personal survival from the response. Probably more and more of them as the us continues to decline. Hell, why do you think the us has hardened bunkers if they don't think they can win?

croup coughfield
Apr 8, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 75 days!
the us thought afghanistan was gonna be a slam dunk lol

Trabisnikof
Dec 24, 2005

Relevant Tangent posted:

"war happens because at least one side thinks they'll win" doesn't seem controversial

No one started ww1 thinking it would end up as the war to end all wars.

Cuttlefush
Jan 15, 2014

gotta have my purp
if they did they would have called it the last war or something instead of ww1

SideEffectShit
Oct 10, 2022

by Pragmatica

croup coughfield posted:

every time i crack open a history book the thing that really stands out to me are all the rational actors

i enjoy the part where States stop prepping for war sometime around the birth of capitalism

SideEffectShit
Oct 10, 2022

by Pragmatica
is any country, except north korea, ready for war right now? helll nawww

Turtle Sandbox
Dec 31, 2007

by Fluffdaddy

Relevant Tangent posted:

"war happens because at least one side thinks they'll win" doesn't seem controversial

I can see America nuking china because they start beating us at our own game, and we can't be assed to just be better, so we would do it just to make sure no one surpasses us on the global stage.

An Apple A Gay
Oct 21, 2008

the orb can do more than suck light

An Apple A Gay
Oct 21, 2008

I remember right when it happened and the thread went orb crazy wow that was nice

An Apple A Gay
Oct 21, 2008

how do you think they made it glow was there a man under the table with a switch

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011
You don't have to think you're going to win to start a war, you just have to think that not going to war guarantees a worse outcome than going to war, win or lose. Add in that political decision-makers are irrational actors with imperfect information, and you get lots of dumb ways for unwinnable wars to start.

Relevant Tangent
Nov 18, 2016

Tangentially Relevant

SideEffectShit posted:

is any country, except north korea, ready for war right now? helll nawww

russia thought they were

Danann
Aug 4, 2013

Relevant Tangent posted:

russia thought they were

Yeah she withstood the unprecedented imposition of sanctions by the International Community (tm) and the wholesale backing by said International Community (tm) from lethal aid to outright intelligence aid has not delivered a decisive blow to her army.

Cuttlefush
Jan 15, 2014

gotta have my purp
stopping russians from buying or selling games on steam without pretending they're like, totally in kazakhstan even though russians were always who you went to to pirate games is some poo poo

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SideEffectShit
Oct 10, 2022

by Pragmatica
so, in other words, every russian has NordVPN?

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