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In addition to the composition cantrips, which are good enough that getting the 1st-level Inspire Courage from the archetype instead requires level 8, the occult spell list is probably the best selection of all four lists. Heroism, Slow, Fear, and though you don't get Heal you do get Soothe. It would be more accurate to say they're the best class that's a spellcaster rather than the best at casting spells though, as you get 1 fewer spell per level than the sorcerer or wizard in trade for the cantrips and broader proficiencies. If you're judging a class solely on the merits of spellcasting then sorcerer is better at that specifically, both for having an extra spell per level and having the innate sorcerer ability to convert material spell components to somatic so you pretty much never need a hand free to cast spells. You can also do some silly stuff with your choice of bloodline and Crossblooded Evolution, like having access to all arcane spells and Heal.
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Feb 21, 2023 12:26
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Lamuella posted:So: if wizards are broken, how would you fix them? Honestly, I'd just give them class feats that are actually interesting. The class itself feels kind of flat, good feats fix that. The class has nothing interesting to do with their third action, good feats could fix that. Good feats... probably can't fix their spellcasting feeling fundamentally janky, but it can't hurt. Realistically, the real problem is that wizards are bad because Paizo overcorrected for the years of wizard supremacy and doing that kind of big feat overhaul would look like they're just going back to that if they aren't really careful.
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Feb 21, 2023 14:53
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For one thing wizards should've had a Quick Alchemy style thing baked in for making scrolls, a couple times a day you can cast a spell taken from your entire spellbook. Give some benefit for having a bunch of niche spells in your spellbooks and make wizards the masters of utility.
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Feb 21, 2023 15:05
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Cyouni posted:I am very confused, because they both have 4 spells/level, but wizard has drain bond for +1. Sorry, I should have been more precise there. Drain bond is worse than a spell slot, since you can't even choose what to put in it you have to cast something you've prepared a second time with it. I'd give them 4 actual spell slots to prepare, plus whatever they get from their arcane school, which I guess I kind of defaulted to universalist in my post. I think this is the easiest "fix" that leans into the swiss army knife feel of the wizard by just..giving you more spells as tools directly. Even with this change I'd probably still choose a sorcerer because signature spells are just so good at high levels, and charisma is a much more useful key stat than int, but I think they'd be worth playing if you want to play someone with high int because you want to be good at int skills for whatever reason.
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Feb 21, 2023 15:10
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Lurks With Wolves posted:Honestly, I'd just give them class feats that are actually interesting. The class itself feels kind of flat, good feats fix that. The class has nothing interesting to do with their third action, good feats could fix that. Good feats... probably can't fix their spellcasting feeling fundamentally janky, but it can't hurt. Yeah the wizard's biggest problem is that their features are just kinda dull. From a straight up effectiveness standpoint I'd say they are middle of the pack as far as casters go. M. Night Skymall posted:Sorry, I should have been more precise there. Drain bond is worse than a spell slot, since you can't even choose what to put in it you have to cast something you've prepared a second time with it. I'd give them 4 actual spell slots to prepare, plus whatever they get from their arcane school, which I guess I kind of defaulted to universalist in my post. I think this is the easiest "fix" that leans into the swiss army knife feel of the wizard by just..giving you more spells as tools directly. Even with this change I'd probably still choose a sorcerer because signature spells are just so good at high levels, and charisma is a much more useful key stat than int, but I think they'd be worth playing if you want to play someone with high int because you want to be good at int skills for whatever reason. Int is kinda weird since it really doesn't much. Having more trained skills is good at lower levels but without a way to get more skill increases they rapidly lose their effectiveness after the early game.
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Feb 21, 2023 15:19
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Finally getting to be a player instead of a gm. I'm getting to be a redeemer champion! And uh. Marshal just seems to be the best archetype possible and I can't see why I wouldn't want it. For free archetype I'm struggling to think of anything else I'd pick for a champion. It fits the flavor and is insanely strong
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Feb 21, 2023 15:23
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Lurks With Wolves posted:Honestly, I'd just give them class feats that are actually interesting. The class itself feels kind of flat, good feats fix that. The class has nothing interesting to do with their third action, good feats could fix that. Good feats... probably can't fix their spellcasting feeling fundamentally janky, but it can't hurt. Yeah, their class features and feats just overall aren’t very good and most importantly are fuckin boring. And yeah I agree that they overcorrected on Wizards, but they also overcorrected on spellcasting generally. Reworking spells won’t happen so I’d personally probably just rework class feats in line with the theses to give them actually cool poo poo to do. Maybe there’s unique cool wizard metamagic, or weird poo poo they do with staves, or cool poo poo with spell blending. I’d probably also give Master spellcasting before level 15.
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Feb 21, 2023 15:48
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I think moving expert/master/legendary spellcasting training a few levels earlier would go a long way to making casters feel better without making them the overwhelmingly dominating force they were in 5e. It's already a relatively larger amount of work to optimize your spell selection so that you have things that can be effective against all 3 saves, and your proficiency making your spells less likely to land vs a fighter's hits along with also doing much less damage is just blah. Yes, yes, I know spells generally all still have some effect on a successful saving throw, but that's poor recompense when you hit a 200hp boss for 7 damage. I think wizards getting faster proficiencies to make them the fighters of spellcasters in exchange for the clumsy spell selection system is reasonable.
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Feb 21, 2023 16:22
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Gwaihir posted:I think moving expert/master/legendary spellcasting training a few levels earlier would go a long way to making casters feel better without making them the overwhelmingly dominating force they were in 5e. It's already a relatively larger amount of work to optimize your spell selection so that you have things that can be effective against all 3 saves, and your proficiency making your spells less likely to land vs a fighter's hits along with also doing much less damage is just blah. Yes, yes, I know spells generally all still have some effect on a successful saving throw, but that's poor recompense when you hit a 200hp boss for 7 damage. I like this idea a lot. It really would differentiate the wizards from other casters well. Not sure how early, but it's a thought.
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Feb 21, 2023 16:32
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Anarcho-Commissar posted:I like this idea a lot. It really would differentiate the wizards from other casters well. If we want to make them “the fighters of spellcasters”, Expert at 5, Master at 13, would be it. I think there’s also maybe merit to giving them + 1 proficiency bracket with a single school (so, Illusionists become Master w/ Illusions when they are expert in everything else), at, say, 9 and 15, would make sense but you need to do something for universalists to match that.
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Feb 21, 2023 16:39
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a dumb and unbalanced idea, but you could being back the "burning spells" idea and have a small repertoire of spells from your arcane school (one per level) that you have permanently memorised and can always cast at the cost of one of your prepared spells. Soa first level wizard could have Burning Hands and Mage Armor prepared with Magic Missile memorised, meaning they could cast: Burning Hands and Mage Armor once each Burning Hands once and burn Mage Armor to cast Magic Missile Mage Armor once and burn Burning Hands to cast Magic Missile or burn both prepared spells and cast Magic Missile twice. I'm sure this is a bad idea, just not precisely how.
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Feb 21, 2023 16:59
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Chevy Slyme posted:If we want to make them “the fighters of spellcasters”, Expert at 5, Master at 13, would be it. I think there’s also maybe merit to giving them + 1 proficiency bracket with a single school (so, Illusionists become Master w/ Illusions when they are expert in everything else), at, say, 9 and 15, would make sense but you need to do something for universalists to match that. Yeah that's real good imo. For universalist maybe give their drain bonded item cast the +1 boost to attack/DC. They can get the same bonus a specialist does, but only once per day instead of with every spell in a specific school. Those two boosts along with maybe a feat tweak or two feel like they go a hell of a long way towards making the class feel like it's better at really contributing in a group rather than just being sorta along for the ride. I think I'd probably also alter a few of the more niche utility spells to be single actions, since a big part of wizard being blah is not having anything to do with a third action that isn't "I cast shield".
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Feb 21, 2023 17:14
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Trip report for first session of Pathfinder Beginner Box: If you've been keeping up with this I had a Swashbuckler, Wizard, Crossbow Gnome Ranger (made by a player who just could not grasp the system) and a 14 CHA Bard (made by a player that "always plays Intelligent characters" and so undermined his key ability to have a high INT). The 14 CHA Bard cracked. The Wizard player - who is a mutual friend - called him up and talked to him. I guess he recommended a couple of videos of combat. The Bard player watched the videos, realized he'd been processing the entire game through a crummy 5E lense, got his act together, and came back with an 18 CHA 16 DEX Bard wielding a whip, and was finally ready to Embrace The System. The session started with a brief meet and greet between the characters and then they dropped off a package at Morbilint's Odd Books. I decided to make Morbilint a slightly camp Regis Philbin (is that redundant?) and it hit huge. I want to give a shout out to the poster who did the "nice armor, for a clown to wear, at the circus, idiot" because I used it (stole it) as a "Morbilint's attempts a Swashbuckler Bon Mot" moment and it brought the house down. I literally had to stop them from continuing to interact with him because all they wanted to do was bounce off him and I am trying to keep something in the tank for later sessions. Once they got down to the basement, combat started and the Crossbow Ranger said "I hate this. This clearly isn't working how I thought". I had made three other Gnome Rangers as a backup so she just grabbed the Flurry one and next round was like "I like this!" as her owl pecked at a rat's eyes. The Bard used Telekinetic Strike to hit a giant rat with a loose fish from one of the barrels. They had a fine old time. Couple of bad runs of rolls from the Swashbuckler which wasn't great, but hey that's d20. So the overall vibe was extremely positive. My only real complaints with Pathfinder 2e are the ability scores and the vertical cliff of character creation. After that, a little playtime seems adequate to understand the system - and it's a good system!
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Feb 21, 2023 18:26
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Any good youtube series out there for getting a handle on GMing a 2E campaign? Our group is finishing up a year+ stint in 5E Temple of Jing, and we are all eager to get back to PF. I'll be starting off with Beginner's Box and rolling into Abomination Vaults (have the Foundry modules for both). I thought I was going to have another month or two for prep, but it looks like we'll be starting this Friday night, so I'm in crunch mode.
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Feb 21, 2023 19:17
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Enos Cabell posted:Any good youtube series out there for getting a handle on GMing a 2E campaign? Our group is finishing up a year+ stint in 5E Temple of Jing, and we are all eager to get back to PF. I'll be starting off with Beginner's Box and rolling into Abomination Vaults (have the Foundry modules for both). I thought I was going to have another month or two for prep, but it looks like we'll be starting this Friday night, so I'm in crunch mode. I'll leave the YouTube recs to others, but I wanted to say that the Beginner's Box is also meant to teach you how to GM pf2e, so don't worry about it too too much. My advice is to skim the "how to play" core rulebook chapter (plus the gamemastering chapter if you have time, but that's less urgent), and then just keep 2e.aonprd.com open so you can look up rules on the fly as you need them.
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Feb 21, 2023 19:28
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If you have the foundry modules, then there's really not much more you might need to do other than read through the journals for the scenes you're going to get to. I'd definitely join the pf2e foundry discord (https://discord.gg/pf2e ) too though, they have a good thread for all the current adventure paths that frequently brings up common issues or stuff to look out for. This guy does decent if long videos about GMing the different adventure paths, so it's handy if you have time to burn on watching stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0dCLPKqLew
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Feb 21, 2023 19:29
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Rules Lawyer is pretty good if kind of superdorky: https://youtube.com/@TheRulesLawyerRPG But honestly I'd go straight to the game designer Jason Buhlman who has some very good in depth videos about the mechanics of play. https://youtube.com/@JasonBulmahn Or for really bitesize chunks King Ooga Tonton has a "pathfinder in 7 minutes" series https://youtube.com/@KingOogaTonTon
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Feb 21, 2023 19:30
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Another question from the budding level 2 wizard. We just started the Kingmaker adventure path, and the first encounter is a dinner party. I used the spell Share Lore to give my party members training in River Kingdoms lore, but the spell is weird. It has no somatic, verbal or material components listed, and it has a one-minute casting time. Our GM just said that I could cast it at the party and it wouldn't be noticeably magical, just like me giving everyone a short primer on the River Kingdoms aided by magic. Is there rules im missing for a spell with no components listed? I liked the way we handled it at the table, but if there's a specific rule we would probably follow it. https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=584
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Feb 21, 2023 20:17
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gurragadon posted:Another question from the budding level 2 wizard. We just started the Kingmaker adventure path, and the first encounter is a dinner party. It's covered under https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=72 long casting times. There's a mix of verbal/somatic/material components I guess, so it would probably be "obviously magical" but eh. I'd let you do it too whatever.
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Feb 21, 2023 20:20
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Thats what I thought too but I was a bit confused by them not listing them specifically. Other spells with long casting times list them specifically having components. Like Breadcrumbs https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=876 or Message Rune https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=581
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Feb 21, 2023 20:25
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Unless otherwise stated spellcasting is clearly magical and obvious.
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Feb 21, 2023 20:26
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Do you think it's an oversight that they weren't listed in the Share Lore spell? I haven't looked deep into the spell list yet because I'm just starting so I wasn't sure if other spells were like that or not.
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Feb 21, 2023 20:29
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Components don't really matter- even a combat spell with zero components takes the listed amount of actions and is very obviously happening.
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Feb 21, 2023 21:38
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Lamuella posted:Rules Lawyer is pretty good if kind of superdorky: VikingofRock posted:I'll leave the YouTube recs to others, but I wanted to say that the Beginner's Box is also meant to teach you how to GM pf2e, so don't worry about it too too much. My advice is to skim the "how to play" core rulebook chapter (plus the gamemastering chapter if you have time, but that's less urgent), and then just keep 2e.aonprd.com open so you can look up rules on the fly as you need them. Gwaihir posted:If you have the foundry modules, then there's really not much more you might need to do other than read through the journals for the scenes you're going to get to. I'd definitely join the pf2e foundry discord (https://discord.gg/pf2e ) too though, they have a good thread for all the current adventure paths that frequently brings up common issues or stuff to look out for. Thanks all, these will be great to throw on at work when things are slow. Our groups first foray into 2E I think we got a little too hand-wavey in certain areas and I want to make sure I have a firmer handle on the rules this time around.
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Feb 21, 2023 21:50
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Evilgm posted:Components don't really matter- even a combat spell with zero components takes the listed amount of actions and is very obviously happening. Since Share Lore has no components listed then it would be noticeable because of magic being visible whenever it is being used then? Casting Share Lore would effectively be the wizard huddling everyone together for a quick briefing while a magic aura surrounds them. I guess by the rules they would have probably known that we were cheating on our River Kingdoms knowledge.
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Feb 21, 2023 22:00
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Lamuella posted:Rules Lawyer is pretty good if kind of superdorky: While we're on this sort of thing, are there any particularly good PF2E actual play youtubes or podcasts?
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Feb 21, 2023 22:38
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gurragadon posted:Since Share Lore has no components listed then it would be noticeable because of magic being visible whenever it is being used then? Yeah it's always visible unless you're using Conceal Spell or is explicitly said to be hidden. The manifestation of the spell is always visible though, so I think in the case of Conceal Spell they just don't know it's you who is casting or see the spell being cast, but they see the spellcasting manifestation like an aura or pictures of brains floating in teh air or something and can tell that a spell is occurring. Paizo really doesn't want spellcasting to be stealthy. when you cast a spell it's obvious you are casting a spell and it's obvious that the spell effect is coming from you. If you Dominate the king people notice he's under the effects of a spell and know it's you who cast a spell.
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Feb 21, 2023 22:42
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Cool Dad posted:While we're on this sort of thing, are there any particularly good PF2E actual play youtubes or podcasts? Glass Cannon are a good table and have some completed PF2e adventures now. Paizo themselves put out a play through of Troubles In Otari that's quite good. Other than that there's less of a scene for pf2e than d&d 5e.
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Feb 21, 2023 23:33
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I follow Knights of Last Call a lot, on top of actual plays they'll also do a lot of breakdowns of spells and classes and such. I usually can't stand a lot of actual play stuff, but their content hasn't been that bad for me so far.
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Feb 22, 2023 00:11
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sugar free jazz posted:Yeah it's always visible unless you're using Conceal Spell or is explicitly said to be hidden. The manifestation of the spell is always visible though, so I think in the case of Conceal Spell they just don't know it's you who is casting or see the spell being cast, but they see the spellcasting manifestation like an aura or pictures of brains floating in teh air or something and can tell that a spell is occurring. Note in the case of Conceal Spell it explicitly blocks manifestations. It is the one way in the game to do that, and it's only on Wizard
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Feb 22, 2023 00:16
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Cool Dad posted:While we're on this sort of thing, are there any particularly good PF2E actual play youtubes or podcasts? +1 to Glass Cannon, they just started releasing episodes of Quest for the Frozen Flame last month. And Gatewalkers is coming soon™. And Jason Bulmahn's run of Knight's of Everflame: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7s90t8wr8k
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Feb 22, 2023 00:56
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sugar free jazz posted:Yeah it's always visible unless you're using Conceal Spell or is explicitly said to be hidden. The manifestation of the spell is always visible though, so I think in the case of Conceal Spell they just don't know it's you who is casting or see the spell being cast, but they see the spellcasting manifestation like an aura or pictures of brains floating in teh air or something and can tell that a spell is occurring. It's interesting that the magic is kind of churned up by a wizard who's casting, which causes the physical manifestation of raw magic near the wizard. I had originally read the manifestation of a spell as like the fire from a fireball, or the physical transformation from a polymorph. I hope they release a feat line the expands the wizards metamagic options. They need metamagic where they can sculpt the magic to make it seems like somebody else is casting, or the spell manifests magic as a weaker or stronger spell to the viewer. That seems like a real niche that the wizard could fill.
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Feb 22, 2023 01:07
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It’s a thing they eventually made for PF1 as part of a Mesmerist archetype so they might make spellcasting misdirection type stuff a thing
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Feb 22, 2023 01:22
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Cool Dad posted:While we're on this sort of thing, are there any particularly good PF2E actual play youtubes or podcasts? Currently on episode ten or so of Roll for Intent, https://rollforintent.com/, they are playing Abomination Vaults, liking it a lot, good chemistry between players and good production value. Editing is good, each episode is a manageable 1h30 so much better than the insane, unedited Critical Role ones of 4+ hours. Perfect length for me to listen on the way to work and back.
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Feb 22, 2023 09:50
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Got Treasure Vault and just LOL at how awesome Mutagen Alchemists are conceptually. They basically turn the entire party into their experiments, handing out collars that auto-inject Mutagen (and cause one point of damage) during initiative roles. I mean sure they're not as good as a straight martial character in combat but straight martial character can't give you a breath mint that cures the sickened condition when you bite it, can they? Can they have their rat with human hands run over to your unconscious body and put a potion in your mouth? Didn't think so. Skunk Bombs are also CRAZY support weapons, just insane. Sadly as a Mutagen Alchemist you need to be hopped up on Bestial Mutagen Goofballs and taking Wrestler so you can grab guys, bite them, and throw them into your spellcaster's AOE or piledrive them into the ground, so you won't be using those. But still. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Feb 22, 2023 |
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Feb 22, 2023 20:51
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Got Treasure Vault and just LOL at how awesome Mutagen Alchemists are conceptually. They basically turn the entire party into their experiments, handing out collars that auto-inject Mutagen (and cause one point of damage) during initiative roles. This post is one of the single best advertisements I've seen for PF2e and I really need to share it with my friends who are fence-sitting about the system.
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Feb 22, 2023 21:18
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Don't be a half-orc Mutagenic Alchemist who talks like Macho Man when he's under the influence of Bestial Mutagen. That's my concept.
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Feb 22, 2023 21:35
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A villainous mutagen alchemist juicing a stable of barbarians and fighters before jumping in himself screams Vince McMahon to me. "It was me, Jockstrap!"
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Feb 23, 2023 03:02
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Is shaman/spirit shaman available in some form in 2e? Just curious, we're going with the premades for our first intro box game, but after that I was looking at options for a spiritual but fighty lizardfolk.
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Feb 23, 2023 17:38
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bagrada posted:Is shaman/spirit shaman available in some form in 2e? Not available in the Paizo published rules but someone has made rules for it. https://paizo.com/products/btq02apt?Legendary-Shamans-Second-Edition
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Feb 23, 2023 17:43
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