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They are going to get sued into loving oblivion and they deserve it.
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Feb 22, 2023 20:20
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Lumbermouth posted:TG as an Industry: They are going to get sued into loving oblivion and they deserve it.
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Feb 22, 2023 20:24
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Bobby Deluxe posted:what the gently caress difference does it matter if the victim was an employee or not? It matters because one law they could have broken was firing/retaliating against the victim, which is very clearly illegal; it sounds like they broke other laws, such as retaliating against/firing employees who reported a workplace incident; but this may or may not constitute specific kinds of illegal retaliation depending on the applicable laws and various details. I am not a lawyer but we get training on this stuff at my workplace so I'm drawing from that. Also Andy Morocco may be a bit confused about who your ideas related to your work belong to when you have them at work; he probably isn't owed any compensation for the company using a design he created for them before he was fired, unless the company failed to pay him his wages through his termination date, or unless he had a specific exclusion in his employment contract granting him ownership of his innovations, or unless he was an independent contractor and inventing new products was not part of the work he was being paid for. This is not a very important detail because the crux of the matter is the sexual assault and coverup/retaliation, but I figured it was worth mentioning for folks reading along.
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Feb 22, 2023 20:57
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Bottom Liner posted:Jesus Christ. I literally cannot imagine the pure making GBS threads temerity it requires to be accused of gross misconduct and the immediate response is to post stuff about it online, rather than checking to make absolutely 1000% sure you didn't gently caress up.
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Feb 22, 2023 21:07
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I'm not going to pay taxes and when the IRS comes for me I will simply say "The CEO missed that detail".
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Feb 22, 2023 21:10
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Magnetic North posted:I literally cannot imagine the pure making GBS threads temerity it requires to be accused of gross misconduct and the immediate response is to post stuff about it online, rather than checking to make absolutely 1000% sure you didn't gently caress up. Look we gotta see how mad this situation makes the Nostalgia Critic
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Feb 22, 2023 21:18
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Bottom Liner posted:I'm not going to pay taxes and when the IRS comes for me I will simply say "The CEO missed that detail". quote:You.. can be a millionaire.. and never pay taxes! You can be a millionaire.. and never pay taxes! You say.. “Steve.. how can I be a millionaire.. and never pay taxes?” First.. get a million dollars. Now.. you say, “Steve.. what do I say to the tax man when he comes to my door and says, ‘You.. have never paid taxes’?” Two simple words. Two simple words in the English language: “I forgot!” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXmQW_aqBks
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Feb 22, 2023 21:27
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Lumbermouth posted:They are going to get sued into loving oblivion and they deserve it. The fireee says in the video he's coming out now because its been 3 years and he does not have the money to do it.
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Feb 22, 2023 21:42
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Does Wyrmwood have outside investors? How are they not demanding the CEO get thrown out the door?
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Feb 22, 2023 21:53
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Funzo posted:Does Wyrmwood have outside investors? How are they not demanding the CEO get thrown out the door? They don't. Like I believe they are a fully inhouse DTC company. They mostly use Kickstarters and Crowdfunding as "reservations" for their like desks and poo poo.
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Feb 22, 2023 21:58
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Well, this sucks. I was just going in for a nice gaming table. Anyone have any info on other gaming table manufacturers, or advice on how to engage a local carpenter?
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Feb 22, 2023 23:08
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PharmerBoy posted:Well, this sucks. I was just going in for a nice gaming table. Anyone have any info on other gaming table manufacturers, or advice on how to engage a local carpenter? Depends on where you are, but cabinet makers are usually either capable of making custom stuff or will know someone who is. I'm in a big city and there's a few woodshops you can rent space in to use the tools/make bigger stuff. If you have one of those, give them a call. They'll either have someone or know someone who can.
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Feb 23, 2023 16:29
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neonchameleon posted:And I'm someone who refused to buy any 5e products until they took ZakS and the Pundit out of the PHB. I mean, they didn't really do that, though? They took their names off the credits, but that's not the same? Like, if someone made a movie with Bill Cosby doing a cameo, a person could reasonably decide whether that should stop them from seeing the movie, but I don't think having it be credited/uncredited would really be the thing that makes the difference.
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Feb 23, 2023 17:06
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PharmerBoy posted:Well, this sucks. I was just going in for a nice gaming table. Anyone have any info on other gaming table manufacturers, or advice on how to engage a local carpenter? I really love my table from Carolina Game Tables
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Feb 23, 2023 17:13
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Jimbozig posted:I mean, they didn't really do that, though? They took their names off the credits, but that's not the same? Like, if someone made a movie with Bill Cosby doing a cameo, a person could reasonably decide whether that should stop them from seeing the movie, but I don't think having it be credited/uncredited would really be the thing that makes the difference.
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Feb 23, 2023 17:17
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It was bad, from an ethical and a game design POV, to have actively courted the most toxic aspects of the online D&D fandom. Mearls having already done that, removing their names from the credits doesn't really correct the initial problem.
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Feb 23, 2023 17:24
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Halloween Jack posted:It was bad, from an ethical and a game design POV, to have actively courted the most toxic aspects of the online D&D fandom. Mearls having already done that, removing their names from the credits doesn't really correct the initial problem. What would, if anything?
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Feb 23, 2023 17:32
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They should've fired Mearls years ago but aside from that I don't know what else they could do about those two assholes besides un-crediting them.
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Feb 23, 2023 17:33
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Nothing. You can't unhit someone with a car. Corporate accountability is a fake idea and DEI was invented to sell consulting. You can't undecide to knowingly partner with a fascist and a sociopath.
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Feb 23, 2023 17:33
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What would? They can’t actually do anything to unshit those pants. Efb. Edit: But also, so what? What do I do with the information that this corporation did a bad? Edit edit: Like yeah 5E is problematic, as we used to say, but not saying anything and keeping the credit in would have compounded the problem so I think it's good they took it out. Only Crawford works on D&D at this point so I'm not going to feel bad about consuming this product. Siivola fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Feb 23, 2023 |
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Feb 23, 2023 17:33
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Halloween Jack posted:Nothing. You can't unhit someone with a car. Corporate accountability is a fake idea and DEI was invented to sell consulting. You can't undecide to knowingly partner with a fascist and a sociopath. DEI really bothers me, because it's such a good principle and it's been so obviously corrupted. When my wife (Berkley grad, socialist, more left than me) soured on her school district's DEI person it was a huge "oh poo poo" moment.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:15
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It's frustrating because pointing out the problems with DEI back when it was trendy could get you lambasted Online. Now many more people are like "Wow, the money for DEI training is drying up, it's almost like Microsoft's HR department doesn't really care about fighting systemic racism." Wowzers! Anyway, back to D&D: To try to answer Lamuella's question in more detail: You can't unshit those pants, but making amends for it would require a lot of things. They would have to admit to what they did, and spell out that it was wrong and why it was wrong, and fire the guy(s) who made that decision. It would help if they publicly disavowed the part of the fandom who get unreasonably angry about minor design changes and/or things like female characters who aren't wearing a microkini. Then they'd have to demonstrate a real commitment to responding to their audience that goes beyond a sidebar about pronouns and hiring some minority creators who will get laid off in a year. That's at odds with the corporate drive to make as much money as possible and spend as little as possible, so that was never going to happen.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:40
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It’s also at odds with the corporate drive to avoid legal liability. Those actions are very likely to open liability to suit, which is why most companies prefer to say as little as possible about why they do things and never apologize, ever.
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Feb 23, 2023 20:34
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That's a good point, though I'm not sure "We decided to hire a fascist and a notorious rear end in a top hat, and cater to the most toxic segments of our audience" is actionable. Some of the stuff they did with regard to hiring and firing, probably actionable, but I'm not a lawyer.
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Feb 23, 2023 20:55
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It would be nice if it was as simple as just making right by that one incident, but it kinda isn't. If they wanted to make it feel...not good, but less bad to engage with WotC products, the first thing they'd need to do is stop loving up so frequently.
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Feb 23, 2023 21:03
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Halloween Jack posted:That's a good point, though I'm not sure "We decided to hire a fascist and a notorious rear end in a top hat, and cater to the most toxic segments of our audience" is actionable. Some of the stuff they did with regard to hiring and firing, probably actionable, but I'm not a lawyer. Well, the thing is that if you say "we harmed people by doing X and this was wrong, we are sorry" that is evidence that can be used against you by someone who sues saying they were harmed by X and would like recompense.
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Feb 23, 2023 22:28
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Mors Rattus posted:Well, the thing is that if you say "we harmed people by doing X and this was wrong, we are sorry" that is evidence that can be used against you by someone who sues saying they were harmed by X and would like recompense. Even if the lawsuit is incredibly unlikey
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Feb 23, 2023 22:36
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We already know that  himself is insanely litigation-prone, and one of Wizards' possible legal concerns is being sued by him, regardless of merit. "We have severed our relationship with this person" isn't actionable, but "we are very sorry we associated with an alleged rapist and harasser" totally is, even with the word "alleged" in there. Wizards does business in the same commonwealth countries where has been successful at suing his victims and people who stated his crimes as facts, including our own former TG moderator. This is why legal depts at companies don't want their clients admitting to wrongdoing. It's not only the customers who might sue.
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Feb 24, 2023 01:55
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All of which is to reiterate what people have said regarding "what could WotC have done," there isn't really a way to unfuck that pig. I would have said that firing Mike Mearls, while not exactly turning back the clock, would have at least counted for something given that Mearls was the guy who invited a serial harasser and abuser as well as a full-on "cultural marxism"-decrying fascist to stamp their names on the flagship game, but WotC has made it clear that they don't see the problem as anything other than a tiny little smudge of bad optics and have elected to simply shuffle Mearls elsewhere for his troubles.
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Feb 24, 2023 02:11
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Honestly, my main response to looking back at the Zak S situation and realising how many further incidents there's been on the road between there and here is to once again be thankful that the hobby is as DIY-friendly as it is, so my participation in the hobby is not predicated on remaining a customer of any particular company. Still disheartening that it takes an all-encompassing omnifuckup like the OGL thing for significant numbers of customers to walk away from Omelas, but at least the path out is still there and isn't amenable to being blockaded.
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Feb 24, 2023 18:44
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Warthur posted:Still disheartening that it takes an all-encompassing omnifuckup like the OGL thing for significant numbers of customers to walk away from Omelas, but at least the path out is still there and isn't amenable to being blockaded. It remains to be seen whether any significant number of customers actually did walk away. So far it looks like they mostly just made offended noises and dropped one month of their D&D Beyond subscription, then came right on back as soon as WotC paid enough for a decent apology consultant.
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Feb 24, 2023 19:19
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I mean the people complaining got the changes they wanted. A bunch of people supported Paizo, and looked into Pathfinder. And nothing else changed in the greater industry much below the level of like Paizo getting eyes on Pathfinder with aggressive marketing, and maybe more Pathfinder 2 games in the terminally online spaces. The thing is, this wasn't never a customer, or I should say normal player driven revolt, this was a revolt driven by content creators™, who's fans are players and content consumers followed suit with the outrage their favorite parasocial friends had. You can step on rakes for like a month or two and get away with it so long as you like eventually "do the right thing" and stop stepping on rakes. This was never gonna be a sea change unless WotC refused to stop stepping on rakes.
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Feb 24, 2023 19:32
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Judging by Pathfinder sales and how their subreddit has been completely inundated by posts and questions from people coming from 5e, I think the effect was definitely more than nothing. You combine that with Wizards' almost complete retreat from their OGL plans, and I think it's safe to say D&D is on shakier ground than it has been in a long time. It's still a juggernaut, and I don't think it's going to drop from #1 status, but it's not invincible.
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Feb 24, 2023 19:52
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Dexo posted:This was never gonna be a sea change unless WotC refused to stop stepping on rakes. Of course, they were never going to go anywhere even if WotC made zero changes, it just would have taken them longer to come back. It's just funny to compare the talk from a few weeks ago to the walk from today. People serious about their principles would be taking stock of WotC's behavior and saying, "actually, no, you're not a company I can ethically support, I will now migrate to some other game." But, lol at the idea of people being serious about the principles they proclaim on twitter. FishFood posted:It's still a juggernaut, and I don't think it's going to drop from #1 status, but it's not invincible. If they're not invincible, I'd love to know what would actually take them down in any meaningful way. How much worse could a PR situation possibly get? (He says, hoping a monkey's paw somewhere has begun to curl.)
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Feb 24, 2023 19:55
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I think this had little to no affect on DND as a whole, and will continue to do so, because I'm a human being who has pattern recognition skills, and can already see people going "Well we gave pathfinder a shot BUT!~~~"
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Feb 24, 2023 19:57
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nothing matters and our parents will all die but dnd is forever
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Feb 24, 2023 19:58
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If Pathfinder Books are still sold out after another printing, then I will be shocked.
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Feb 24, 2023 20:00
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the thing that got me in my heart of hearts was that the general public's first reaction to a company doing a thing was to immediately rush out and buy buy buyyy literally whatever is at the store that'll show the capitalists
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Feb 24, 2023 20:04
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Refreshing to see the Nothing Matters attitude about D&D instead of in DnD
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Feb 24, 2023 20:06
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Siivola posted:the thing that got me in my heart of hearts was that the general public's first reaction to a company doing a thing was to immediately rush out and buy buy buyyy literally whatever is at the store that'll show the capitalists I think this is both fair and unfair. I mean, if you're going to convert your game to another system you kind of need the other system. But I agree that "voting with dollars" is a lovely frequently useless signal that only benefits the increasingly monopolized corporations that rule our capitalist hellscape.
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Feb 24, 2023 20:12
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