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I can't speak for the thread or All Americans but my awareness of concerns about rail safety go back to when all the people who work on the railroads got together and said "hey we're really concerned about rail safety" about three months ago
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Feb 23, 2023 19:16
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CuddleCryptid posted:Is that really that uncommon, or limited to Americans? This liberal tendency to atomize issues is really counterproductive to actually solving them. The problems don't exist in isolation, and they can't be solved in isolation.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:20
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Harold Fjord posted:I can't speak for the thread or All Americans but my awareness of concerns about rail safety go back to when all the people who work on the railroads got together and said "hey we're really concerned about rail safety" about three months ago Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the workers' demands focused mostly on paid time off/more flexible hours? I don't recall unsafe/unmaintained trains being a talking point during those negotiations.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:21
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Epic High Five posted:Americans have an incredible ability to just not think about things unless instructed to by the media they follow. There's no chance it would've been a big national thing if it hadn't been turned into a right wing outrage of the month. After all, it's not like this is uncommon, but right wing framing is all anybody will ever get so miserable little worms like Tucker and Vance get to decide what everybody is talking about month to month and here we are. Its such an odd scenario. Right wingers are drumming up outrage and exaggerating to blame biden/buttigieg and the left is trying to hype it up in order to support unions and blame greedy railroad companies. Both sides are completely exaggerating what actually happened to make this out to be a Chernobyl type event when there's very little evidence to support it being anywhere close to as bad as the attention its getting.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:22
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Kalit posted:Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the workers' demands focused mostly on paid time off/more flexible hours? I don't recall unsafe/unmaintained trains being a talking point during those negotiations.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:23
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Kalit posted:Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the workers' demands focused mostly on paid time off/more flexible hours? I don't recall unsafe/unmaintained trains being a talking point during those negotiations. The one leads to the other. The railway workers' point was that they are forced to work because there is no slack in the system. The companies schedule trains far in advance with the absolute minimum number of crews required by law, and they insist that the crews be present at the exact time and place the schedule dictates, with no redundancy and no one on standby. This means working individuals to the point of exhaustion, or making them work when they're sick or stressed. They start to make mistakes, and when you make mistakes on maintaining or operating a train you get East Palestine and friends.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:30
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CuddleCryptid posted:Is that really that uncommon, or limited to Americans? Oh no it definitely isn't, I just figured something like a distressingly routine train derailment in Ohio isn't going to get international penetration like a lot of bigger stuff will if it happens here. I've given it some more thought tho and I'm probably wrong. It's definitely not just Americans who are guilty of this, just in this case it's an American context. Social media has allowed this sort of thing to spread fast and far completely unchecked after all.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:32
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haveblue posted:The one leads to the other. The railway workers' point was that they are forced to work through medical and personal crises because there is no slack in the system. The companies schedule trains far in advance with the absolute minimum number of crews required by law, and they insist that the crews be present at the exact time and place the schedule dictates, with no redundancy and no one on standby. This means working individuals to the point of exhaustion, where they start to make mistakes, and when you make mistakes on maintaining or operating a train you get East Palestine and friends. Of course safety includes not overworking people. That's why I specifically stated "unsafe/unmaintained trains" , since the discussion is revolving around the East Palestine derailment. Which, as far as we know, wasn't human error. It seemed to be a lack of maintenance (or perhaps training) issue with the wheel and/or possibly the heat sensors. Kalit fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Feb 23, 2023 |
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Feb 23, 2023 19:34
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cat botherer posted:More time off and flexible hours is a safety issue. Another issue is was understaffing. These workers are run ragged. When you are tired and stressed, and there are only two people on your two mile long train, the risk of human error gets a lot higher. Something can be both a quality of life issue and a safety issue. Again, these things don't all exist in a vacuum. haveblue posted:The one leads to the other. The railway workers' point was that they are forced to work because there is no slack in the system. The companies schedule trains far in advance with the absolute minimum number of crews required by law, and they insist that the crews be present at the exact time and place the schedule dictates, with no redundancy and no one on standby. This means working individuals to the point of exhaustion, or making them work when they're sick or stressed. They start to make mistakes, and when you make mistakes on maintaining or operating a train you get East Palestine and friends. This is the first I'm hearing that this was a human error accident, I thought they were running the trains too long between maintenance and equipment failed. Do you have a source on this?
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Feb 23, 2023 19:35
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Papercut posted:This is the first I'm hearing that this was a human error accident, I thought they were running the trains too long between maintenance and equipment failed. Do you have a source on this? My point the past couple posts has been that there are many interrelated issues - understaffing, long hours, under-regulation of physical safety, etc. that all come together to increase the risk of accidents just like these. All of these things are symptoms, not causes, of the underlying problems. Many posters ITT insist of treating this particular crash as some isolated occurrence, when it clearly is not.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:40
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Fascists will jump on any event and use it to cheerlead their fascism. 4 Americans died during the Benghazi consulate attack but fascists wailed about it for 4 years as if it were a second Pearl harbor. The moment that wailing achieved its goal, it was completely memory holed and no one ever talks about it anymore. The train derailment is exactly like that. There are a few people who are genuinely cognizant of the adjacent safety issues, but a vast majority of the "concern" is fascist wailing and the media chasing ad revenue.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:40
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Epic High Five posted:Social media has allowed this sort of thing to spread fast and far completely unchecked after all. this is mostly the problem in my mind, that social media is simply more accessible and easier to use, and humans being humans the convenience of being fed little bits of info outweighs the importance of if that info is valid or accurate at all. this is a problem regardless of one's politics, and it is especially bad for people who position themselves as jaded cynics who just instinctively don't trust the mainstream - it's equivalent to admitting that one prefers to eat random garbage because the standardized, middle class product is for boomer squares, man. now let me tell you the stories you'll never read about in the corporate news: did you know the ancient maya invented cell phones with the help of time traveling aliens?
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Feb 23, 2023 19:42
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Here's the actual NSTB preliminary report. https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Documents/RRD23MR005%20East%20Palestine%20OH%20Prelim.pdf
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Feb 23, 2023 19:42
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Fascists will jump on any event and use it to cheerlead their fascism. 4 Americans died during the Benghazi consulate attack but fascists wailed about it for 4 years as if it were a second Pearl harbor. The moment that wailing achieved its goal, it was completely memory holed and no one ever talks about it anymore.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:43
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The Dems also will square their shoulders and just walk headlong into a brick wall because their instinct when people are scared, angry or hurting is to go " if you look at these charts you can see the coefficient of the Hurfen variable is under 1.23947462 so we AREN'T in a recessi-, uh, getting poisoned by the doom cloud".(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 23, 2023 19:43
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:this is mostly the problem in my mind, that social media is simply more accessible and easier to use, and humans being humans the convenience of being fed little bits of info outweighs the importance of if that info is valid or accurate at all. this is a problem regardless of one's politics, and it is especially bad for people who position themselves as jaded cynics who just instinctively don't trust the mainstream - it's equivalent to admitting that one prefers to eat random garbage because the standardized, middle class product is for boomer squares, man. now let me tell you the stories you'll never read about in the corporate news: did you know the ancient maya invented cell phones with the help of time traveling aliens? It's the leaded gasoline of our generation.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:53
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Under Lina Khan, the FTC has again started to serve as a check against anticompetitive and monopolisitic behavior and wooo boy is that pissing people off. Not the 66% of American workers who support the proposed ban on noncompetes, or the 4,399:1 ratio of supporters in the first couple weeks of public comment, but the people who are really important... like the Chamber of Commerce: quote:“Attempting to ban noncompete clauses [...] ignores the fact that, quote:[I have failed to] persuade Ms. Khan and her enablers to do the right thing, and I refuse to give their endeavor any further hint of legitimacy by remaining  Kevin Borowoski, who sacrificed his home and career so his company could make a point about unionization posted:Kevin Borowski and his wife worked as caretakers in Minneapolis for over a decade, and lived in the residential building that their employer tasked them to manage. As Buroswki explained, he led a unionization drive of workers and filed a class action lawsuit against the company for wage theft. Shortly after getting a settlement in the case, the company fired both him and his wife—which also entailed evicting them from their home. Because of the noncompete clause in his contract, Borowski couldn’t work as a caretaker in Minneapolis for over a year. It's not like this impacted COVID response: quote:Dr. Sameer Braig, a specialist in Florida, detailed how the worst parts of the US healthcare system—from high costs to extensive wait times for physician care—all in one way or another tie back to noncompetes, which have become ubiquitous among health workers. By blocking physicians from leaving their jobs, healthcare giants can exploit doctors by overworking them, which ultimately poses risks to patients. Noncompetes shields large hospitals from competition and lead to health deserts in underserved areas, creating an artificial physician shortage. These agreements were yet another chokepoint in the healthcare system that constrained hospital response during the COVID-19 pandemic. quote:Because COVID outbreaks would first cluster in certain neighborhoods before spreading, it would often be the case that hospitals across town weren’t yet over-burdened and had physicians that could have been redeployed. However, many of these physicians were bound up by noncompetes which forbade them from going where they were needed most. Industry shills were out, workshopping their tight five. In this case, if you give a mouse a cookie...: quote:Johanna Torsome tried to frame industry's pushback against the ban as narrowly concerned with executive level positions. “We believe there's a distinction between noncompetes at senior executive level versus lower employees,” she said. Really, it's just about executives. And people with trade secrets. And proprietary information. A reasonable FTC that listened to their better angels would surely make carveouts to the ban to ensure that your local Burger King franchisee can't gain an edge over McDonalds by learning their training for burger pickle placement. And if that means a few more people have to die because of medical understaffing, it's still a whopper of a trade for The FTC rightly points out that anything less than a blanket ban will be used to force litigation where, as noted in my NLRB post yesterday, companies win by dragging things out even when they lose.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:56
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when appropriately used
fostering innovation and preserving competition.
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cat botherer posted:That's on the right. The concern on the left is generally about the entire safety/environmental situation that leads to these kind of accidents. These concerns get handwaved away by liberals, but they should be taken seriously - even if Tucker Carlson is using it as an own on Buttigieg. It would be more productive if you would directly address arguments or statements made by politicians/organizations/posters, rather than strawmanning "liberals" (a very elastic label) as collectively all handwaving away safety and environmental concerns.
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Feb 23, 2023 20:09
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What is so frustrating about this event is that had everything occurred exactly the same but under a Trump administration, with a Republican trifecta being the ones to break the rail strike, the reactions and demands of every entity left of center would be so different as to be unrecognizable. It would not take Buttegeig ten days to make a response. AOC would have tweeted about it far more than a single RT five days after the event. People being wary of returning to their homes would not be being framed as them lacking faith in the science of having an unfounded distrust of the EPA. There would not be twitter threads of biologists confidently diagnosing a rainbow sheen as a biofilm off a lovely video nor would the reports of dead fish or animals be treated with such doubt. Trump’s transportation secretary saying ‘actually this happens a thousand times a year’ would be treated as completely absurd. There would essentially be a full throated and coordinated ‘we told you so’ from anyone even remotely aligned with union power. This really could have been a moment where it was made clear that labor knows what needs to be done and that corporations cannot be trusted to govern themselves, that cost cutting directly harms the lives of people in every part of the country, that this is a warning sign for a dangerous rot in the heart of American infrastructure. And on Earth-2 maybe it is. But here the wrong guy pulled the trigger so everyone gets to sit around with their dick in their hands and talk around the issue until it mercifully falls out of the news.
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Feb 23, 2023 20:11
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celadon posted:It would not take Buttegeig ten days to make a response. AOC would have tweeted about it far more than a single RT five days after the event. i think what these people are actually doing is more important than what they tweet about. the unspoken assumption here is if that they didn't tweet about it, then it basically didn't happen, because twitter constitutes the horizon of our perceptions
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Feb 23, 2023 20:14
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celadon posted:What is so frustrating about this event is that had everything occurred exactly the same but under a Trump administration, with a Republican trifecta being the ones to break the rail strike, the reactions and demands of every entity left of center would be so different as to be unrecognizable. Why do you think this? I really doubt it since I can point to the train derailment/evacuation in Hyndman that happened while Trump was in office. I don't recall any major reactions/demands from the "left of center". Searching tweets from AOC and Buttigieg, since you specifically singled them out, I see nothing referencing this soon after it occurred.
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Feb 23, 2023 20:21
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Waiting 10 days to do the thing news organizations were calling out should happen, and should have already had happened prior to the incident, from day 1 is that very important thing "these people are actually doing". The thing that they were doing that was very important was sitting on their hands! I wonder how much it makes a difference that they actively chose to set the fire instead of it happening naturally Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Feb 23, 2023 |
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Feb 23, 2023 20:22
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celadon posted:What is so frustrating about this event is that had everything occurred exactly the same but under a Trump administration, with a Republican trifecta being the ones to break the rail strike, the reactions and demands of every entity left of center would be so different as to be unrecognizable. Do you think there would be any substantive differences in the way a Trump appointed executive branch would respond to it, or would it mostly be different because of how people would react on Twitter?
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Feb 23, 2023 20:25
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He's talking about the entire news media ecosystem. Reducing it to posters on Twitter seems like unreasonable minimalization of the impact these structures have on our society as a whole
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Feb 23, 2023 20:27
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I would rather the thread not wander into vague hypotheticals about what a Trump admin response would have been compared to their perceptions of the actual response filtered through social media.
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Feb 23, 2023 20:27
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Even though I think he was slow to the party and I'm concerned at the politics aspect of letting the evil Republican party run circles around them on this issue, I'm glad Pete said he wants to do the thing that I was saying he should have done all along
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Feb 23, 2023 20:29
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Harold Fjord posted:Waiting 10 days to do the thing news organizations were calling out should happen, and should have already had happened prior to the incident, from day 1 is that very important thing "these people are actually doing". i think you are confused. do you have any evidence that buttigieg waited ten days for the NTSB to investigate, or are you mixing up "waited 10 days to do a thing" with "waited 10 days to tweet about a thing". it appears that the investigation took place within the expected timeframe for said investigations to begin. i know that my opinions are my own, but in my mind it is not especially important that government officials tweet about everything they are doing or authorizing their agencies to do for the sake of people who mostly get their news from twitter Harold Fjord posted:I wonder how much it makes a difference that they actively chose to set the fire instead of it happening naturally this actually probably matters quite a bit, because the initial derailment happened on the 3rd, and the flaring off of chemicals which made the big cloud happened on the 5th. this was necessary to prevent a BLEVE, aka it was better to burn it in controlled fashion rather than allow it to burn out of control, because it was burning one way or another. but this had a number of impacts per social media reporting -got the derailment back in the news again as something different was happening now -made for a very photogenic, scary cloud -allowed for people to complain that the mainstream media was covering things up ("why is preliminary reporting from the 3rd not reflective of events that happened on the 5th? smells fishy") also didn't take long to find the "pete did nothing for 10 days" argument coming verbatim from fascists. let's not get into what the secretary of transportation's role is here for immediate cleanup compared to the EPA or FEMA https://twitter.com/RepAndyBiggsAZ/status/1625599774874341379 Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Feb 23, 2023 |
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Feb 23, 2023 20:33
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celadon posted:What is so frustrating about this event is that had everything occurred exactly the same but under a Trump administration, with a Republican trifecta being the ones to break the rail strike, the reactions and demands of every entity left of center would be so different as to be unrecognizable. Where your assumption fails is that had this happened under Trump, we wouldn't have heard about it like this is another Chernobyl with "clouds reaching Ottawa." So Trump people would not be swatting away conspiracy theories, since such conspiracy theories are the fictions of the right, and they would not be created to tar their favorite fascist president. The EPA was there right away and did the job that they were supposed to do. No one doubted the dead fish in the immediate area, especially since it was confirmed to have been due to the disaster. But chickens many miles away during one of the worst avian flu outbreaks in recent memory, yes, we're pressing x to doubt.
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Feb 23, 2023 20:46
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Kalit posted:Why do you think this? I really doubt it since I can point to the train derailment/evacuation in Hyndman that happened while Trump was in office. I don't recall any major reactions/demands from the "left of center". Searching tweets from AOC and Buttigieg, since you specifically singled them out, I see nothing referencing this soon after it occurred. That didn’t occur a few months after the federal government broke a railway strike where safety was a major concern/issue. That’s the key sorta thing here in that it allows you to draw a real straight line from A to B.
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Feb 23, 2023 20:47
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celadon posted:What is so frustrating about this event is that had everything occurred exactly the same but under a Trump administration, with a Republican trifecta being the ones to break the rail strike, the reactions and demands of every entity left of center would be so different as to be unrecognizable. I think you’re right, but I don’t quite agree with you on what the response would look like. I mean, look at the response, say, four days after the accident (Feb 7). As others have said, it was a minor story until the right wing media blew it up. (It wasn’t really a minor story here, and it’s to the credit of this community that y’all were far more engaged in the first days of this than most people - give yourselves a round of applause!) Alternatively, look at similar incidents that did happen under Trump. That’s probably what the response would have been - little notice except to people who are extra concerned with environmental or transportation issues. I question how much the public was aware of the labor issue, except insofar as a strike would’ve affected their Christmas shopping. (That’s how both MSM and RWM treated it - as an impending disaster, that was averted.) I guess we could think of it as a “silver lining” of Right Wing Media that they amplify public awareness, if disingenuously, of problems when a Democrat is in the White House. Of course, they will also advocate for the exact wrong policy response. But overall, I do think that it is increasing pressure on the administration to take action, and when they do it will be in the form of tighter regulation, as opposed to what Tucker Carlson seems to want (rerouting all hazardous material transport to the most minority-heavy areas possible, I guess?) Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Feb 23, 2023 |
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Feb 23, 2023 20:47
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celadon posted:People being wary of returning to their homes would not be being framed as them lacking faith in the science of having an unfounded distrust of the EPA. Neither of these things are true. The scientific realities of the situation don't change depending on who is president. People who are pushing back against the "everyone is going to die" narrative aren't doing so in order to own the maga/libs, it's to make sure that people aren't living in terror unnecessarily. Hell, the reason for most of the distrust in the EPA that is being referenced comes from something they did 22 years ago. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Feb 23, 2023 |
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Feb 23, 2023 21:22
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this little rat LOVES publicity, he will appear in front of any camera https://mobile.twitter.com/stephenasmith/status/1628802370896273409
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Feb 23, 2023 21:41
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AsInHowe posted:this little rat LOVES publicity, he will appear in front of any camera Please provide some kind of summary or your take on stuff like this. Nobody can tell what is actually said from your one sentence or the tweet.
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Feb 23, 2023 21:42
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AsInHowe posted:this little rat LOVES publicity, he will appear in front of any camera So it's bad if Buttigieg doesn't appear on camera talking about the disaster, but when he does, it's also bad because..why, exactly?
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Feb 23, 2023 21:47
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Harvey Weinstein and R. Kelly's sentences on state charges both came down just now. R. Kelly got 20 years on top of the existing 30 he was serving federally (to be served concurrently, except for 1 year). Weinstein got 16 years + another separate 3 years on top of the existing 23-year sentence he's already serving. That essentially ensures that both of them are effectively getting life in prison. Although, R. Kelly can technically apply for parole when he is 81. But, child sex crimes basically never get parole as soon as possible. https://twitter.com/cnnbrk/status/1628847549183303680 https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1628815633960804355
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Feb 23, 2023 21:49
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Fritz the Horse posted:I would rather the thread not wander into vague hypotheticals about what a Trump admin response would have been compared to their perceptions of the actual response filtered through social media. There is an observable phenomena where people (poll responders) have greatly differing views on events based on who the president is.  When this happens, as it is happening now, is it not worth pointing out and discussing?
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Feb 23, 2023 22:12
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RealityWarCriminal posted:When this happens, as it is happening now, is it not worth pointing out and discussing? i'm not sure how you can objectively discuss an alternate reality. personally, i don't think that's a useful thing to do
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Feb 23, 2023 22:13
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CuddleCryptid posted:Neither of these things are true. The scientific realities of the situation don't change depending on who is president. People who are pushing back against the "everyone is going to die" narrative aren't doing so in order to own the maga/libs, it's to make sure that people aren't living in terror unnecessarily. The scientific realities of a situation don’t change with the president, but the actions and beliefs of people, politicians, and the media certainly do. I am not trying to claim a difference in material reality so much as a difference in how people are responding. A scientist posting in generally center left Science Twitter is going to have much different engagement on ‘disaster under vile trump actually not bad’ vs ‘disaster under friend Biden actually not bad’ it will just be engaged with and amplified differently, even if the initial post was as likely to occur, which I doubt. Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:i'm not sure how you can objectively discuss an alternate reality. personally, i don't think that's a useful thing to do Isn’t discussing alternate realities like the entirety of politics? Medicare for all would save X lives, the tragic event would have been avoided if we had implemented regulation Y, my new investment program will create Z jobs, etc (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 23, 2023 22:29
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Youth Decay posted:So it's bad if Buttigieg doesn't appear on camera talking about the disaster, but when he does, it's also bad because..why, exactly? Stephen A. Smith is the cornerstone of ESPN's programming slate of loud, contrived daytime debate shows. He will appear on camera absolutely all the time, for anything. He is also an absolute kissass to those more powerful than him. To have Buttigieg appear on this is a hilarious non sequitur for a sports fan, and a true meeting of two individuals that will always, always appear on camera.
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Feb 23, 2023 22:30
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RealityWarCriminal posted:There is an observable phenomena where people (poll responders) have greatly differing views on events based on who the president is. You're posting proof for a different argument. People (or at least most people) aren't arguing whether or not people respond differently under different presidents, they're arguing whether or not it's useful to construct an entire 8-point fantasy of exactly how events would have gone. If you'd like to talk about the phenomenon you're provided proof for, fine, but I'm not sure anyone at all is disagreeing with you so rock on.
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Feb 23, 2023 23:44
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