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EorayMel posted:Yet another GBS civvie refugee reporting in, couple of questions despite reading 20~ pages of posts here, especially the "PUT MORE WIRE DOWN EVERYWHERE, gently caress 1 I suspect it's not so much we need leopards as much as we need loving tanks, please 3 there can't be a whole lot of civvies even left there and I doubt a lot of people are going to give two shits about the russkies eating nail bombs in their captured cities As for 2 there were videos much earlier ITT but I have no doubt someone will be along with links soon enough
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Feb 26, 2023 00:19
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" post that may or may not be better suited to the ask/tell milhist thread:
war crime 
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I thought the Nagants were being given to guys who got deputized out of Donetsk and stuff early on, not actual Russian army dudes (even if underequipped and poo poo upon for not being Wagner or what-not).
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Feb 26, 2023 00:22
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EorayMel posted:Yet another GBS civvie refugee reporting in, couple of questions despite reading 20~ pages of posts here, especially the "PUT MORE WIRE DOWN EVERYWHERE, gently caress 1. Ukraine needs more tanks period. It helps that Leopards are generally more modern tanks than what Ukraine has on hand, with better optics, thermal sights, comm gear, and networking. How well Ukraine can take advantage of this remains to be seen, but no one has won betting on the Ukrainians to underperform. The main thing is that it's more good tanks, period. 2. There is video and photographic proof of Donetsk 'volunteers' being issued PU mosin sniper rifles. There is photographic, video, and first hand telegram accounts of mobiks being issued rusty clapped out AKs back in September. 3. It depends. Some potential actions could be considered war crimes, but the thing about warfare is that the rules are all fake. Unless Ukraine starts using NBC or committing egregious atrocities as a matter of policy, seeding Bakhmut with anti personal lines and traps isn't going to move the needle on Western support. A.o.D. fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Feb 26, 2023 |
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Feb 26, 2023 00:23
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A.o.D. posted:1. Ukraine needs more tanks period. It helps that Leopards are generally more modern tanks than what Ukraine has on hand, with better optics, thermal sights, comm gear, and networking. How well Ukraine can take advantage of this remains to be seen, but no one has won betting on the Ukrainians to underperform. The main thing is that it's more good tanks, period. Ah, okay. Thanks for the answers.
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Feb 26, 2023 00:26
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gbs civvie refugee here but yeah for the load of Leopard 1s the advantage from what i've read is that much like Bradleys and the like the thing is still an absolute beast if you're fighting infantry that *doesn't* have armored support so on paper the Leopard 1s look pretty outdated but it's still got a big gun and better to have that support than nothing
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Feb 26, 2023 00:27
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A.o.D. posted:Unless Ukraine starts using NBC or committing egregious atrocities I heard the night court remake wasnt great, but c'mon
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Feb 26, 2023 00:31
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EorayMel posted:1) Is there a good article/goon recap of exactly how or why the Leopard tank deliveries are critical for Ukraine from a military perspective? I assume it goes beyond political brownie points of "hey we're helping!!!!" or vague "it will assclap everything the Russians have left" Speaking as a former Abrams gunner and a guy who now designs parts that go into certain tank technology (on top of countless other things from car radios to pacemakers), there's just more you can do if you logistically support an armored force that is fielding AFVs like Abrams, Leopard 2, Bradley, etc. I have a massive effortpost in Scrivener that I started, but I never knew if it constituted Clancy chat so I never posted it in D&D, and the GBS thread hadn't presented the opportunity, but I've got snippets. I'd need to see a breakdown of what Ukraine is running, but Russian armor has a history that can be academically described as "fucky." It started out simple with the T-55, an impressive design at its time. Then there was the T-62, which... had a smoothbore gun early on so good job? It has a ton of problems that could be forgiven for its time, but it's absurd that Russia is fielding them. By that point, the USSR was pretty scared of M60s and Chieftains, so they took a great leap forward. The T-64 was very impressive for its time, but it started USSR/Russia's issues with its modern armored force. T-64s had mechanical issues early that were fixed with the T-64A, and the bad T-64s were upgraded to the T-64R. The problem was that that process took years and while they were doing it, a rival factory started working on upgrades for the T-64 that would eventually become the T-72 (using parts and designs from the 62, which was based on the 55). T-72s were cheaper to make and were originally intended to support the more expensive/intensive 64s. Meanwhile, a third project that had been going would become the T-80. These tanks are all very similar while also being very different. But they're also not very different while also not being very similar. This is why my effortpost word file is stupidly long right now, because if you dare to say the T-86 is just a T-69 with <x>, someone will say "nuhuh the chassis 50cm longer here while also using different forward sprunkwheels!" Long story short, these three (now four with the T-62) are all fielded more or less side-by-side by Russia in Ukraine. Problem is that many of these tanks each received different upgrade packages, some of them actually specific to Ukraine. So, not only do you have three (wait four gently caress) tanks all serving together, you now have T-64As right next to T-72Bs and T-80Bs T-80BMVs and T-72CFNMs sorted out to different units. Some of these upgrades can be minor down to which ERA they're equipped with, to massive differences that change the engine/fuel, autoloader, wheels, optics (which is an essay in and of itself). These tanks share ammo commonality and varying degrees of parts commonality. It's a mess. After that, look at the Abrams. There's the base M1, which is super outmoded and will never see combat. Then there are the M1A1 and M1A2. A1s can and have been upgraded or have available kits to be upgraded to the levels of M1A2s so that you can more or less be fielding the same tank whether it's an A1 or A2 all across your front. The Leopard 2 is somewhat similar with its A4s/A5s that are going over, with caveats in terms of some of its more substantial upgrades like ammo storage or optics (anyone thinking that T-series are the only fireball tanks should prepare for a  search if they look for "Leopard2+Turkey"- it's very gruesome). What's assured to Ukrainian crews is a better crew layout, better optics, more crew protection (comparatively), and operational longevity as well as things like basic parts commonality. I'm also willing to assume that the US and Germany wouldn't just dump these vehicles on Ukraine without logistical support being considered. And those are the features I'm 100% sure of. What I am sure of is that the war would be over tomorrow if Ukraine got Strv 103s. I don't know who would win but it would be over.
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Feb 26, 2023 00:33
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I mean, Ukraine has a very clear sense of attainable victory: Push Russia's military out of Ukraine. Not having read the article, I'd guess the quibble is whether doing so is actually attainable - in the same sense, Putin has a clear sense of victory (occupy Kyiv and the rest of Ukraine) but it's obviously in no way attainable. Whether Ukraine can push Russia out of Ukraine in a reasonable timeframe feels more debatable. Given indefinite time, money, and resources? I think it could be done. I am concerned that there might be various weak points that might start feeling the strain before total victory is achieved, though - Western political will, Western ammo production, the Ukrainian economy, etc. I'm still cautiously optimistic for Ukraine but I do think that total victory is a good long ways off and it's hard to say what might happen in that time. EorayMel posted:2) Have there been any more sightings/confirmations of Russians down to using Mosin Nagant rifles instead of any Kalanishkov pattern of gun, or any exceptionally lovely equipment dug up for the war, or lack thereof? I know about the early war photos of some rear line Russian dudes doing traffic searches with those rifles, but I wonder if there's any further sightings of some loving 1891 pattern rifle still present, just because that rivals the deathtrap airport for absurdity for me. Let's say anything starting Jan 1 2023. For what it's worth, those were mostly the troops of the breakaway republics, i.e. people that Russia doesn't fully trust and doesn't want fully armed in case they get any funny ideas, and who were mostly not intended to be on the frontlines. As far as can be told Russia isn't actually short on AKs.
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Feb 26, 2023 00:35
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My loose judgment is that barring some major shift in political winds - which isn't going to happen in the next year (though it might in the next 2 or 2 and a half) - Ukraine can probably kick the Russians out of all of their current gains in this war. Retaking Crimea is a different story but I gather all they have to do is take out that one bridge if they cut off the land bridge and the area is completely hosed? That said I kind of doubt the war will end formally, because Russia will try to do the "freeze the conflict" thing.
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Feb 26, 2023 00:41
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I also fully expect Russia to keep doing periodic missile strikes on schools and hospitals in Kyiv no matter how or when the war ends/freezes/pauses 
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Feb 26, 2023 00:43
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As for Leopard 1s... I'd rather be in a Bradley. But I'd rather have them there instead of nothing.
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Feb 26, 2023 00:44
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War is a game where the rules are made up, and the crimes don't matter.
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Feb 26, 2023 00:46
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The real rule is if you gonna crime, win.
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Feb 26, 2023 00:48
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History is written by the winners. The winners also get to say what was/wasn't a war crime.
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Feb 26, 2023 00:58
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We didn't win Iraq, and I'm not in jail. Checkmate, Athetits!
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Feb 26, 2023 01:02
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bulletsponge13 posted:We didn't win Iraq, and I'm not in jail. But throwing old batteries at "land mines" in the desert is a safe and legal thrill!
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Feb 26, 2023 01:20
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madeintaipei posted:But throwing old batteries at "land mines" in the desert is a safe and legal thrill! batteries go in the ocean, heathen!
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Feb 26, 2023 01:27
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madeintaipei posted:But throwing old batteries at "land mines" in the desert is a safe and legal thrill! I would like to know more
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Feb 26, 2023 01:28
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I always thought it was funny that when people proposed putting German submarine captains on the dock at the Nuremberg Trials, the USN stepped in to say "Look, if you're gonna prosecute them you'd have to prosecute us as well because we did the same things they did, only we did it more and we did it better. Haha Japanese merchant shipping can get fuuuuuucked"
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Feb 26, 2023 01:29
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Vengarr posted:I would like to know more Short version- I threw batteries at a not land mine to prove it's not a land mine. I was right. Long Version- https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4002076&pagenumber=5&perpage=40&userid=0#post524397202 Edit- that specific starts in the section that begins "Desert around Ashraf"
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Feb 26, 2023 01:38
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Tomn posted:I always thought it was funny that when people proposed putting German submarine captains on the dock at the Nuremberg Trials, the USN stepped in to say "Look, if you're gonna prosecute them you'd have to prosecute us as well because we did the same things they did, only we did it more and we did it better. Haha Japanese merchant shipping can get fuuuuuucked" I had never heard about this, pretty compassionate if true.
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Feb 26, 2023 01:40
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ded posted:batteries go in the ocean, heathen! There are many advantages to being a
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Feb 26, 2023 01:42
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Coasterphreak posted:I had never heard about this, pretty compassionate if true. So I misremembered some of the details, apparently. From Wikipedia (but corroborated elsewhere): quote:For the postwar trial of German Grand Admiral Karl Dönitz at the Nuremberg Trials in 1946, Nimitz furnished an affidavit in support of the practice of unrestricted submarine warfare, a practice that he himself had employed throughout the war in the Pacific. This evidence is widely credited as a reason why Dönitz was sentenced to only 10 years of imprisonment. (The ten years was for the OTHER things he got up to as a high ranking Nazi official)
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Feb 26, 2023 01:51
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Coasterphreak posted:I had never heard about this, pretty compassionate if true. On the sentencing of Kurt Meyer for the killing of Allied POWs by soldiers under his command, an early example of the legal concept of command responsibility: "Shortly before the sentence was to be carried out, however, the prosecutor realised that the trial regulations contained a section requiring a final review by "the senior combatant officer in the theatre" and no-one had completed such a review. The execution was postponed until it could be carried out. The senior officer was the commander of Canadian forces in Europe: Christopher Vokes, who had dismissed Meyer's appeal. Vokes had second thoughts and began a series of meetings with senior officials to discuss how to proceed. Vokes' main concern was the degree to which a commander should be held responsible for the actions of his men. The consensus which emerged from the discussions was that death was an appropriate sentence only when "the offence was conclusively shown to have resulted from the direct act of the commander or by his omission to act". Vokes said "There isn't a general or colonel on the Allied side that I know of who hasn't said, 'Well, this time we don't want any prisoners'". Vokes had himself ordered the razing of Friesoythe, a German town, in 1945, and had ordered the shooting of two prisoners in 1943 before his divisional commander intervened." Make of that what you will.
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Feb 26, 2023 01:51
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https://twitter.com/AndrewPerpetua/status/1629578275981860864?t=pHq1wRUwvXWuPeQhpP6S-A&s=19 Apparently the UA destroyed a dam in Bakhmut today
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Feb 26, 2023 01:59
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That might cause issues with Russian supply lines. Just maybe.
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Feb 26, 2023 02:19
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Lmao if they let the Russians encircle than blew the dam. Slava Ukraini
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Feb 26, 2023 02:21
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bulletsponge13 posted:Short version- I threw batteries at a not land mine to prove it's not a land mine. I was right. This is a proclick must read thread, bulletsponge is a fantastic writer.
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Feb 26, 2023 02:25
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madeintaipei posted:On the sentencing of Kurt Meyer for the killing of Allied POWs by soldiers under his command, an early example of the legal concept of command responsibility: Meyer was a gigantic POS and his crimes were greater than occasionally saying 'we don't want prisoners this time.' War his hell and bad stuff happens, but when as a commander your unit is responsible for consistently perpetuating major war crimes, surely that then meets a standard of direct culpability in those crimes. Perhaps it was because most of Meyer's more egregious actions were committed on the Eastern front and the war criming got toned down a bit on the Western front played a role in the decision Vokes took, as much of that information may not have been known or able to be proved at the time he made his decision. Anecdotally, there is an exceptionally nice CF range outside of Vancouver named after Vokes. Hello thread, another GBS Ukraine refugee here.
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Feb 26, 2023 02:34
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Hannibal Rex posted:I never saw any confirmation of mobile crematoriums either. They're called T-72's
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Feb 26, 2023 02:41
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Alan Smithee posted:They're called T-72's This gave me a hearty chuckle.
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Feb 26, 2023 02:45
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E: old news, Twitters broke so what. As penance here is some fresh map content https://twitter.com/War_Mapper/status/1629643510767812608 Karma Comedian fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Feb 26, 2023 |
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Feb 26, 2023 02:47
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Alan Smithee posted:They're called T-72's Very good.
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Feb 26, 2023 02:57
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Statue of liberty? Let me know when you can defeat a lava dragon gotta join the US marines
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Feb 26, 2023 02:58
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Jesus Christ, with the amount of new posts in the thread i thought some even more horrible development must have occurred in Ukraine. Phee-loving-eeew Welcome, everyone! 
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Feb 26, 2023 03:15
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Duzzy Funlop posted:Jesus Christ, with the amount of new posts in the thread i thought some even more horrible development must have occurred in Ukraine. Thanks! It looks like we may eventually get our own thread back at some point, but this seems like a nice place to visit. e: That said, it looks like we're seeing the beginning of the retreat from Bakhmut, which is threadworthy news in its own right. Not enough information to really say anything just yet, though.
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Feb 26, 2023 03:24
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mikerock posted:Meyer was a gigantic POS and his crimes were greater than occasionally saying 'we don't want prisoners this time.' War his hell and bad stuff happens, but when as a commander your unit is responsible for consistently perpetuating major war crimes, surely that then meets a standard of direct culpability in those crimes. Perhaps it was because most of Meyer's more egregious actions were committed on the Eastern front and the war criming got toned down a bit on the Western front played a role in the decision Vokes took, as much of that information may not have been known or able to be proved at the time he made his decision. Yeah. My take on that was the Canadian military (being given a huge amount of discretion) erring on the side of fairness, and not for Meyer's sake. He had already been found guilty. Meyer's memoir kind of sucks up to the Canadians and cuts them a fair amount of slack for lax security measures during his imprisonment. Maybe that's my bias of trust in Canada and Canadians, historically. Welcome! I think you, yourself, will have a good bit to bring into discussions here in GiP. You good people.
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Feb 26, 2023 03:33
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Duzzy Funlop posted:Jesus Christ, with the amount of new posts in the thread i thought some even more horrible development must have occurred in Ukraine. You aren't alone. I was convinced Russia finally opened the can of sunshine based on the sheer number of posts.
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Feb 26, 2023 03:33
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Y'all are still welcome to stay. This thread sometimes dives into some strange territory due to the experiences of the regulars. Thanks to the experience and training of some of the guys, you get not just the paper/academic answer. The gang here is pretty drat good at breaking complicated things down big purple Dino style. Some other subforums seem to think that because we needed college money, we all secretly polish our jackboots and relish the idea of fascism. Or that we have some vein of bloodlust. Most of us are GWOT Vets or older, and we all tend to skew left. So please, feel free to stay and contribute. Just don't gently caress up the house.
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Feb 26, 2023 03:36
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Our early 2010s ironic name binge to troll D&D certainly didn't help our reputation.
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