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Lockback posted:I'd be happy to do it if I knew I wouldn't be around in 6 months. I'd be happy to have a step review with comp with a report. If you aren't performing, you don't get comp, and I probably get budget to replace you with someone that will. If you are, you get paid. Everyone wins.
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Feb 26, 2023 00:32
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Dik Hz posted:The only reason a manager would ever put that in writing is if they knew one of you wouldn't be around in 6 months. Zauper posted:I'd be happy to have a step review with comp with a report. If you aren't performing, you don't get comp, and I probably get budget to replace you with someone that will.
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Feb 26, 2023 02:12
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Zauper posted:I'd be happy to have a step review with comp with a report. If you aren't performing, you don't get comp, and I probably get budget to replace you with someone that will. If you tell an employee, “we’re going to review your role in 6 months with the potential to increase your pay band to $75-85k,” the majority will hear “6 months from today you will be making $85k”. And if you can’t deliver on that, the relationship is tanked. Promises of future compensation are worth exactly $0.
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Feb 26, 2023 03:13
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Dik Hz posted:The problem is that frontline managers very rarely control compensation. And most people believe that they are high performers. So if you don’t give them the comp they’re out the door. That's fair. You can't promise it unless you can do it, which means you have the budget or you have your bosses on board. And you need actual metrics that can be controlled to evaluate against explicitly. I've done it before as a department transfer for an employee and it worked, but definitely not something that happens often either.
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Feb 26, 2023 03:32
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I've been interviewing with a company that's been very on top of their poo poo when it comes to scheduling and moving the process along. I went through the ringer with three separate zoom interviews and then a half day in-person with another three plus a technical presentation. I got an email from one of the in-house I learn my merit increase and annual bonus at my current job on 3/17 and it pays out 3/31. Looking for stall tactics. Depending on the offer, my merit increase might tip the scales into me staying. I definitely want to collect on the annual bonus since it is a significant part of my compensation. I already cancelled and rescheduled the in-person interview session due to an emergency at my current employer, they were cool with it. They are definitely interested in moving the process as fast as possible though. For stall tactics, I plan on asking for: -an org chart -getting a defined Roles & Responsibilities document (it's a startup with 200 employees and they've been transparent about shifting roles frequently) -asking about potential for a relocation package (I live 20 miles away but that's an hour commute in the afternoons) Aside from the standard 1 week to consider the offer, what else can I throw at them to delay the process without making it obvious I'm delaying?
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Feb 26, 2023 04:10
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A promise for a perf review for a new employee can have some value, but if it's an internal transfer that really just seems like a stalling tactic. They already know you.
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Feb 26, 2023 04:37
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spf3million posted:I've been interviewing with a company that's been very on top of their poo poo when it comes to scheduling and moving the process along. I went through the ringer with three separate zoom interviews and then a half day in-person with another three plus a technical presentation. I got an email from one of the in-house I'd just come clean about the bonus, that will also carry you through the merit. That's not uncommon for people to stipulate and they will probably sniff out if your stalling and think the worse
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Feb 26, 2023 04:38
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Lockback posted:I'd just come clean about the bonus, that will also carry you through the merit. That's not uncommon for people to stipulate and they will probably sniff out if your stalling and think the worse A couple points: 1. A lot of companies know when their competitors pay bonuses. 2. April 1 (or 15) is a reasonable start date for a late February interview. 3. If they pull the offer when they find out that you work for money, they’re doing you a favor. Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Feb 26, 2023 |
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Feb 26, 2023 15:32
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Zauper posted:And you need actual metrics that can be controlled to evaluate against explicitly. I’ve also never seen metrics that can’t be gamed somehow. But that’s a whole nother kettle of fish.
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Feb 26, 2023 15:37
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I’ve recently started looking for new jobs. Before I read this thread I told an external recruiter I was looking for £85-90k. I was fairly hesitant to give a number, but seems here in the UK these recruiters are quite pushy about salary expectations. He said that since he gets commission based on my salary, it’s in his interest to get it as high as possible - thoughts? I didn’t give him my current salary though (£73k). I’ve got a chat with an internal recruiter for a competitor on Tuesday - definitely won’t be giving a number to him. Another reason is that in my industry the next level up from me seems to go by a bunch of job titles (VP, Scientific Services / Scientific Services Director / Medical Director / Senior Scientific Director / etc), and these are quite similar to my title, so without first hearing what responsibilities would be, it’s hard to know what they’d pay - I could say £85k, thinking it’s a fairly similar role to mine, but then find out it’s way more senior and that market rate is £100k. A little nervous about the chat but I like my current role so no pressure. I’ve also got a discussion on Monday with an old colleague who reached out to me - I’m not keen on the type of projects his company works on, but good practice to speak to him, I suppose.
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Feb 26, 2023 17:01
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Lady Gaza posted:He said that since he gets commission based on my salary, it’s in his interest to get it as high as possible - thoughts? He makes $0 if you don't sign so his interest is getting you enough money to close the deal quickly.
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Feb 26, 2023 17:15
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Lady Gaza posted:A little nervous about the chat but I like my current role so no pressure. I’ve also got a discussion on Monday with an old colleague who reached out to me - I’m not keen on the type of projects his company works on, but good practice to speak to him, I suppose. Your entire post is an excellent example of why it's great to practice interviewing & job seeking when you don't have to. The way you're thinking about what to tell the recruiters instead of reflexively answering their questions will help you is something that can come naturally with practice, but can get easily overwritten by normal social etiquette.
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Feb 26, 2023 17:24
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fwiw, UK salaries tend to be more tightly banded. You should still negotiate (always), but a lot of the huge swings are US focused where you might get a 30% swing just by negotiating well. In the UK that would be a lot more rare. "I need to know more about the role before discussing salary" is universally a pretty good thing to say though.
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Feb 26, 2023 18:30
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I got a UK recruiter to tell me the top of the budgeted range just yesterday by sticking to "it depends on the responsibilities and working conditions". Turns out it'd be about a 112% increase so I know I didn't shoot myself in the foot. Let 'em know that you are flexible by talking about how great your non-financial perks are, implying that you will trade those for cash, and eventually they'll say a number first.
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Feb 26, 2023 18:50
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It's narrowly true that a recruiter will make more money from you if you sign for a higher salary. But you're only going to take one (1) job, whereas the recruiter has an endless supply of jobs to fill with applicants. The optimal strategy to maximize his income is to place an employee quickly so he can move to the next one. He gets paid per employee placed, not per hour or on a salary. Add to that, the recruiter has a brief and transient relationship with hundreds of different applicants, but a firm and long relationship with only a handful of companies. It is much, much more in his best interest to nurture his relationship with the companies, rather than the applicants--thus, his optimal strategy is to make the companies happy by filling the roles as cheaply as possible. So telling you "our incentives are the same, I make more money if you make more money" is technically not a lie, but it's grossly deceptive. In reality, his incentive is to find out as soon as humanly possible how little money you're likely to accept, so he can quickly either try to place you or discard you and move on to somebody else. Your incentive is to maximize your income from this one job that will be your sole source of income for a period of years. Thus, your optimal strategy is to tell no one your asking price, or as the second best option name a very high asking price, until a job is actually being offered to you. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Feb 26, 2023 |
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Feb 26, 2023 19:12
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Eric the Mauve posted:It's narrowly true that a recruiter will make more money from you if you sign for a higher salary. Actually it's different here. Most recruiters get a multiple of the monthly salary of the employee they place, so a higher salary means a higher commission.
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Feb 26, 2023 19:25
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That doesn't really change things though. 10% or whatever of your 10% negotiation gain is not that much when you consider they get 0 if they don't place you. Same story as with real estate agents.
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Feb 26, 2023 19:35
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Grumpwagon posted:That doesn't really change things though. 10% or whatever of your 10% negotiation gain is not that much when you consider they get 0 if they don't place you. Same story as with real estate agents. Yeah, it's this. 10% of say, 100k right now is better than loving around with 10% of 110k after three, four weeks, after putting in more effort, with the possibility that the company goes in a different direction and you get gently caress all.
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Feb 26, 2023 19:52
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All really good points. I am more hopeful about the opportunity with the competitor via the internal recruiter (external is yet to set up any interviews), in terms of job role and type of work. When I’ve hired staff previously, if the candidate didn’t come via a recruiter we were able to offer a slightly higher salary - hoping same true here, from an applicant’s perspective. External recruiters are quite common in my industry, and are basically falling over themselves to place people with my experience due to a big shortage of staff, so despite having given away my hand a little, I’m fairly hopeful I could get a good deal with this guy. Although I’ve made no contractual commitments, so can find another recruiter if needed. My strategy for Tuesday, if the internal recruiter asks for salary expectations, is to deflect/delay until the role is better defined. If they’re really pushy I’ll just ask them what they are paying for the position, and I can consider it.
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Feb 26, 2023 20:16
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Good time to yet again repost from the OP:bolind posted:
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Feb 26, 2023 20:22
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I keep getting confused by people who put a salary requirement way outside our posted pay (Colorado so required). Technically the role can pay higher than what we post but in practice there is near 0% chance of HR going for that. I just end up not interviewing them but it just seems strange that they take the time to apply and fill out all the info.
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Feb 26, 2023 21:25
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Lockback posted:I'd just come clean about the bonus, that will also carry you through the merit. That's not uncommon for people to stipulate and they will probably sniff out if your stalling and think the worse Dik Hz posted:Agreed. Don’t start off a new relationship by being shady. spwrozek posted:I keep getting confused by people who put a salary requirement way outside our posted pay (Colorado so required). Technically the role can pay higher than what we post but in practice there is near 0% chance of HR going for that. I just end up not interviewing them but it just seems strange that they take the time to apply and fill out all the info.
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Feb 27, 2023 00:37
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spwrozek posted:I keep getting confused by people who put a salary requirement way outside our posted pay (Colorado so required). Technically the role can pay higher than what we post but in practice there is near 0% chance of HR going for that. I just end up not interviewing them but it just seems strange that they take the time to apply and fill out all the info. At a guess, I would say its a few things colliding. From the company side: The listed range is always bullshit or flexible somehow(total comp, vacation, etc) Some companies put the *actual* range. Other companies sour the pot by putting a range wide enough as to be untrue . (ex: 60-300k) Other companies put outdated pay ranges or go by what they paid their last employee. (who left, and hope to snag another unicorn person with a lowball) A number is made up because they don't know the market. All of these companies pit each other against one another, which is how competition is suppose to work. From the employees side: The listed range is usually bs, and countering 10-20% above the range and/or asking for a title bump and the next band up is expected they know their worth and there's a mismatch of expectations due to what they are currently getting paid vs what a new job wants to pay. Moonshot and see who gets back to you because its an employee's market right now unrealistic expectations, but sometimes it works because people are desperate to hire. Also, there's other ways to game the system. As a sort of baseline for how the whole job market thing's been going after the EWEPA act was passed (I'm colorado too) I've been paying attention to the whole foods careers pages in my area, for example, and they listed basically 16-24 for all non-lead/non management positions((even cashiers - management or team leads were at the same range but 5$ higher across the board)... but for all two years of covid, and never adjusted for inflation or cost of living for 3 or so years. I've also restaurant dishwashers go up to 30/hourly including/with tip outs. Keep in mind colorado is a high cost of living area during a recession/depression/inflationary cost of living crisis. The MIT living wage calculator has this to say about the area: https://livingwage.mit.edu/states/08 Pay attention to the one parent, one child category: Middle class, just getting by is 83k annual.(2080 work hours in a year) Lastly, if you check their technical documentation, it explicitly says this amount does not include emergency funds, savings, or retirement. so if you want to get an accurate read, add more on top to account for that. off the cuff, the drift is likely due to inflation/cpi data. Because its compounded (like interest), the current inflation rate is a hairline shy of 14%. New job seekers are going to be painfully aware of this fact and trying to get ahead of it. If your company hasn't looked at their ranges lately/in a while/after the january cpi data, thats likely why. if you've already accounted for all that, gently caress if i know. All the tech layoff hires comin in expecting high pay?
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Feb 27, 2023 01:22
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spwrozek posted:I keep getting confused by people who put a salary requirement way outside our posted pay (Colorado so required). Technically the role can pay higher than what we post but in practice there is near 0% chance of HR going for that. I just end up not interviewing them but it just seems strange that they take the time to apply and fill out all the info.
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Feb 27, 2023 02:15
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Habit, or trying to get candidates to try outbid each other?
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Feb 27, 2023 02:36
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Dik Hz posted:Why are you requiring candidates to put in a salary requirement if you’re posting a range? I don't, it is a standard HR application question. Smart people put negotiable or something like that. I would say 95% put a number.
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Feb 27, 2023 15:02
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When would be the best time to discuss salary during the interview process? If I manage to deflect until after the roles/responsibilities are discussed, I’m wondering what is the ideal point for it to come up. When I’ve been on the other end we usually ask the candidate for salary expectations, but I don’t really want to be put on the spot like that - I’d like to digest what occurred in the interview, wait for a £offer and then counter as needed. But based on experience, companies seem to want the candidate to just give a number at the end of the interview and then offers are made based on that. Ideally, if they asked me during that first interview I’d say something like “I’m happy to discuss salary once you’ve made a decision on whether I’d be a good fit - I feel I would be due to x/y/z, but if you want to let me know the salary range for the position now, I can take that into consideration when further evaluating the various options I have at the moment. I’d be happy to discuss this in a follow up meeting.” I guess I am just not sure what to do in case of pushback on this, particularly if the hiring managers aren’t used to this type of negotiation - when I’ve hired staff I never encountered this kind of response.
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Feb 27, 2023 15:19
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As a candidate it is best to to wait as long as you can, as the cost of interviewing is higher for the company. You want to have them sink as much cost as possible, If they are playing chicken on "Who says the first number" then it ultimately helps you if you are the last man standing.
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Feb 27, 2023 15:30
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spwrozek posted:I don't, it is a standard HR application question. Smart people put negotiable or something like that. I would say 95% put a number.
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Feb 27, 2023 17:49
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Hr will screen them out. I will ask for anyone within ~10% of the upper limit to be passed thru though. I am more talking about the people I see putting down something like $160k when the range is $80-100k. It just confuses me why they even went through the process.
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Feb 27, 2023 17:58
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They're telling you that you're lowballing everyone. Whether or not they're right is up to you to determine.
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Feb 27, 2023 19:01
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Some people will (correctly) assume you’re an rear end in a top hat for making candidates list salary requirements and put down their dealing with assholes number.
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Feb 27, 2023 19:13
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Arquinsiel posted:They're telling you that you're lowballing everyone. Whether or not they're right is up to you to determine. We may pay a little low but we have really good benefits. Being a regulated utility makes pay tough. When i reach out to others in our state (utilities and consultants) we are pretty much in line with maybe 10% low on salary. For entry level civil engineers we pay much higher than they are getting at most places though (DOTs or consultants). The hard hire is 10-15 years relevant experience with a PE. Consultants will pay them way more but they also get to enjoy 60 hour weeks. Dik Hz posted:Some people will (correctly) assume you’re an rear end in a top hat for making candidates list salary requirements and put down their dealing with assholes number. Wow, ok. Thanks for the characterization.
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Feb 27, 2023 19:31
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Little unfair to assume the hiring manager gets to call the shots re: intake process. Pretty easy to just put "0" in the field and hash it out when you've got a person to talk tospwrozek posted:The hard hire is 10-15 years relevant experience with a PE. Consultants will pay them way more but they also get to enjoy 60 hour weeks. My last go-round I had an extremely fun time being this hire. Everything is so much easier when you can walk away. Work that BATNA kids
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Feb 27, 2023 19:38
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Fighting rear end in a top hat with rear end in a top hat just gets everyone covered in southpark references
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Feb 27, 2023 19:40
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There was a stretch of time where people thought every software company was paying like Amazon and Google were paying and that, no, the fact that you can't get in there doesn't mean we'll pay you the same for our small-medium business in the midwest. That has largely sailed, I think, but you might be still seeing some of that.
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Feb 27, 2023 19:56
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Not a Children posted:Little unfair to assume the hiring manager gets to call the shots re: intake process. Pretty easy to just put "0" in the field and hash it out when you've got a person to talk to Although I agree that putting $0 is the right answer, that’ll probably still get some portion of applications rejected.
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Feb 27, 2023 20:09
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spwrozek posted:I don't, it is a standard HR application question. Smart people put negotiable or something like that. I would say 95% put a number. I know some of the ones I've seen have input verification that allow only numerical entries. I remember some fluffy business-book nonsense that I read years ago suggested that putting in an absurdly high number (they suggested $1,000,000) was better than putting in zero. I figure going 50% above the range counts as "anchoring high" though 
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Feb 27, 2023 20:39
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So I still think anchoring is frequently a better strategy than this thread typically gives credit for, HOWEVER, be careful on that when dealing with a range, especially one required by law. I'd still say for most people, especially on the junior-to-intermediate, to try to deflect salary entirely early on. If you can't and you're given a range, going slightly above or below (assuming that's still reasonable market) may be better than trying to anchor high above. Basically, use the range to help maximize but don't treat the high end as an offer you give a counter to. In that case someone COULD take that to mean "Oh, this isn't the right job for them" and cut you from consideration, or you might be signalling "I don't understand the market" which makes you more susceptible to being lowballed.
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Feb 27, 2023 20:48
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The company I work for publicly posts the salary range in its job postings, but like a lot of state/local govts the range is hilariously wide. You're not coming in above the midpoint, the top 50% of the range is theoretical if you came it at midpoint and then finished your career out you might get to the top of the band after 20 years of merit increases or whatever. We have a job posting right now listed at 83K to 155K for a mid level analyst job. An extremely qualified candidate might be able to get to 120K, but the rest of the range might as well not exist. It's like the range for my local city gov. Technically steps 1 through 10 is the range, but you're not coming in at step 10.
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Feb 27, 2023 20:57
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