|
Watching the Sword Dad anime, they sure did queer-code the lie detecting lieutenant guy. Not in the manga, just the anime. I checked. Bigotry aside, from a pure storytelling angle I've sometimes wondered how stereotypes are humor even though I figured sudden incongruity and the subversion of expectations are more or less the definition of humor. The easy explanation is conservative bullies taking pleasure in punching down, but the guy is a lord, the narrative plays up the fact that he's rich and aristocratic, and he actually gets LESS queer when he loses his "noble manners" skill. If anything, the studio probably thought they were punching up, since after all I'm guessing at least some of them feel threatened by ~the gays~ and think they hold too much power. So maybe the subversion is that the guy is portrayed as weak and ineffectual. Except being pathetic IS the stereotype, so the subversion is gone, so we're back to square one. Obv I'm not funny by nature, I'm literally sitting here trying to develop and apply a theory of comedy to understand a feeble joke, but I'm really trying to understand here. Maybe it's the ambiguity? The lieutenant is simultaneously strong and weak, and this contradiction is the incongruity, kind of like people on the internet being intimidated by geese and seagulls and such even though they are birds with hollow bones even though geese are 1. bluffing and 2. eminently kickable, and seagulls are cool little beach anarchists who deserve nothing but reverence for the mingled splendor and contemptuousness of nature. I guess my takeaway here is that the internet's fear of birds is fascist and possibly homophobic. This might be another example of right-wingers being unable to tell a joke because they get angry halfway through, but that feels too easy.
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2023 05:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 07:05 |
|
|
i got zero 'queer' vibes from that guy and 100% 'this guy should not be allowed near kids' vibes, which makes sense given that the main character is a literal child
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2023 05:53
|
|
|
It was more the foppish noble stereotype than queer coding specifically. That stereotype often is used to evoke gay connotations, but I don't think it applies in this situation. Unfortunately, as much as I really like the series, there's a much more explicitly LGBTQ character that's not treated as well I'd have liked down the line, at least from the WN, so if that's what they were going for here they'd probably have done so more explicitly. For the later character it's largely a problem with the stereotype in general and Sword Dad's response to the character, everyone else in the story treats them much less objectionably so I'm hoping circumstances are tweaked in the manga/anime. I'm not going to hold my breath, though. (Mostly because it's a long way in the future for the anime, but still...)
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2023 07:50
|
|
|
Wouldn't mind being wrong! I read pretty far into the manga and I don't remember an LGBTQ character of absolutely any description, so I guess my memory is being too kind to the manga.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2023 15:52
|
|
|
I don’t think they’ve shown up in the manga yet.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2023 16:53
|
|
|
Yeah, they're not in the manga either (edit: yet). You'd remember them. This is all based of the WN. I haven't read the LN up to this point yet (it's in my backlog, once it catches up to where the WN translation was dropped), so I don't know how they're treated there. They're a trans woman, but that older Japanese stereotype of being huge, incredibly muscular, 'unattractive' and wearing a lot of makeup. She's very protective (like, literally ball-crushingly) of cute things and kids, of which Fran is both. Every character in the story, except Sword Dad, treats her normally. She's quite popular among the women because she's very good with cosmetics in general, and her skin cream in particular is quite effective. Unfortunately, Sword Dad is constantly confused and suspicious of her, and only warily (and slightly fearfully) accepts her after she tortures info out of a team of rogue, murderous adventurers that have been going after younger adventurers. He does at least keep all of his issues to himself, since he realizes that Fran's actually quite fond of her. At least, as fond as Fran gets towards people. 
Onean fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Feb 26, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2023 19:05
|
|
|
Okay so trans Amanda, probably unflatteringly drawn, and Sword Dad can't handle it even though everyone else is cool with it including Fran. Better than I expected honestly. Is it too much to hope that the actual intended lesson there will be that Sword Dad needs to chill?
Ragnar34 fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Feb 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2023 06:23
|
|
|
Ragnar34 posted:Okay so trans Amanda, probably unflatteringly drawn, and Sword Dad can't handle it even though except else is cool with it including Fran. Better than I expected honestly. Is it too much to hope that the actual intended lesson there will be that Sword Dad needs to chill? Sword Dad does chill about her in the end, I think? And it's stated multiple times that it was only him initially who could not handle it, everyone else in the city trusts her and acknowledges her as a girl.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2023 08:18
|
|
|
Onean posted:I haven't read the LN up to this point yet (it's in my backlog, once it catches up to where the WN translation was dropped), so I don't know how they're treated there. Oh, huh, I'd gotten what I read where mixed up, and the official LN is now past where the WN translation was dropped, so I guess I've got a bit of reading to get to now. Fantastic. (After the WN translation was originally dropped, I kept reading through Google translations of Syosetu since it was right at the beginning of the climax of an arc. I was originally remembering when I stopped doing that, instead of when the translations stopped.)
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2023 13:54
|
|
|
Eeepies posted:Sword Dad does chill about her in the end, I think? And it's stated multiple times that it was only him initially who could not handle it, everyone else in the city trusts her and acknowledges her as a girl. Hell, better than many isekai I've seen, especially if you include the other thread. Not looking forward to the translations, not looking forward to the visual representation, the bar is absolutely subterranean -- but I could find something to like about this I bet.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2023 14:51
|
|
|
Manga representation of gay or trans characters and cross dressing isn't super great, and it's certainly not my area to judge. I will say that while it's often the case that characters we're supposed to like and agree with have extreme distaste for manly cross-dressing characters, the manly cross-dressing characters themselves are often so exuberantly happy that I have a hard time not genuinely liking them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2023 18:14
|
|
|
Spanish Matlock posted:Manga representation of gay or trans characters and cross dressing isn't super great, and it's certainly not my area to judge. I will say that while it's often the case that characters we're supposed to like and agree with have extreme distaste for manly cross-dressing characters, the manly cross-dressing characters themselves are often so exuberantly happy that I have a hard time not genuinely liking them. the anime flamboyant buff crossdresser or transwoman(both kinda get lumped together into a single stereotype) tends to come in two flavors 1) genuinely rapey creep. real dire in every way you can think of. or 2) secretly extremely strong and smart, often takes care of orphans and/or women who escaped from the shadier parts of soceity just flip a coin whenever you see one get introduced and hope it lands on "extremely misinformed" rather than "genuinely homo/transphobic"
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2023 22:57
|
|
|
Is it just me, or is it that, in most "I was thrown out of my party because they fundamentally misunderstood how my particular abilities or the system of the world we're living in works" stories, the most interesting characters are the former party, because they're the only ones actively doing things, whereas the throwaway MC character is generally sleepwalking into a good ending. Whereas in "I was cast out by my fiancé because because I am the Villainess and the story demanded it," they're more likely to have the Villainess actively trying to achieve her goals with the former fiance and game heroine mostly being reactive. Also am in the process of burning through Tearmoon Empire, and enjoying it. Starting Volume 5, and am 99% convinced that Far future Mia somehow stumbled into godhood, and is trying to make the timeline she wanted to have happen, but is doing as little work as she thinks she needs to do to make it happen. And raging at her past self as she evades one bad ending only to stumble into another.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 00:07
|
|
|
maltesh posted:Is it just me, or is it that, in most "I was thrown out of my party because they fundamentally misunderstood how my particular abilities or the system of the world we're living in works" stories, the most interesting characters are the former party, because they're the only ones actively doing things, whereas the throwaway MC character is generally sleepwalking into a good ending. There was an attempt translated on Novel Updates at following that, but it was rather bland. There are a lot of assholes in these parties though so usually the best I see is the party leader slash hero is the only major prick. Sometimes those get subverted with some kind of brainwashing. Of the lot, I think the one with the guide role (Gideon?) Was neat in that it gave me Helck vibes.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 00:36
|
|
|
It doesn't fit in this thread, since it's very much horror even with it's moments of peace and quiet, but Roll Over and Die (fan translated as Do You Think Someone Like You Could Defeat the Demon Lord?) has quite the interesting path the MC gets put on. To start, the MC is sold into slavery by one of the old party, without the rest of them knowing, because her stats are zero and has an affinity that no one had ever heard of. Turns out that affinity, Reversal, makes everything do the opposite. The MC learns this when the slave trader kills all of his slaves that he can't trade by releasing zombies, and gets their hope up with a cursed sword they can't wield. Instead of melting the MC like it did the other slaves, she starts healing and gets stronger when she picks it up. (The affinity isn't all good once she figures it out, though. Buffs are debuffs, healing spells are damaging spells, you get the picture.) After escaping slavery with another slave she finds herself falling for, the MC tries to live a normal life, but keeps coming up against the scum and trash of the city and fighting against these disturbing, body horror monsters that break the System. I found it to be a bit much for me, not quite enough light to go with the dark, but I'd say it's pretty good if you like a darker story. Onean fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Mar 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 02:12
|
|
|
maltesh posted:Is it just me, or is it that, in most "I was thrown out of my party because they fundamentally misunderstood how my particular abilities or the system of the world we're living in works" stories, the most interesting characters are the former party, because they're the only ones actively doing things, whereas the throwaway MC character is generally sleepwalking into a good ending. Is Tearmoon a LN somewhere? Ive just been following the mangadex releases but theyve been really enjoyable
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 02:49
|
|
|
yes, Tearmoon has an LN with an official english release by j-novel club.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 03:05
|
|
|
Are there any mangas where the hero's party that kicks out the MC has a reasonable reaction to realizing they're hopelessly hosed without him/her instead of going straight to "all their fault we're hopelessly hosed now, let's hate them to the point of wanting to murder them"? Edit: posted in wrong thread but eh The Islamic Shock fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Mar 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 03:56
|
|
|
The one that's an anime with the MCs sister is exactly like that, with the one crazy guy only wanting to kill him out of jealousy. They fall apart pretty quickly without him, and in fact try to go get him back. I always felt this was the proto example. https://banished-from-the-heros-par...tryside_(anime) VVV That one too!
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 04:01
|
|
|
The Islamic Shock posted:Are there any mangas where the hero's party that kicks out the MC has a reasonable reaction to realizing they're hopelessly hosed without him/her instead of going straight to "all their fault we're hopelessly hosed now, let's hate them to the point of wanting to murder them"? https://mangadex.org/title/c26a8a56-7fa6-4efd-93a1-5289c36c3634
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 04:01
|
|
|
Most of them seem to be like that. Where all but one of the other heroes realise they hosed up. Banished from the Heroes Party and Roll Over and Die have it that way. It's usually the sage character that both kicks them out and can't come to.terms with it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 04:02
|
|
|
The Islamic Shock posted:Are there any mangas where the hero's party that kicks out the MC has a reasonable reaction to realizing they're hopelessly hosed without him/her instead of going straight to "all their fault we're hopelessly hosed now, let's hate them to the point of wanting to murder them"? https://mangadex.org/title/2436b0ca...-i-strengthened They're still friends/friendly rivals in this one, though in all fairness the original party isn't all that screwed without the MC's skills.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 04:21
|
|
|
I still like that The moment they hire on a new girl she immediately calls out how hard the MC must have been carrying the party in a completely rational and unbiased manner. I still think the "Hero" not having the spine to back up his friend annoys me as well.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 04:27
|
|
|
Brought To You By posted:I still like that The moment they hire on a new girl she immediately calls out how hard the MC must have been carrying the party in a completely rational and unbiased manner. I still think the "Hero" not having the spine to back up his friend annoys me as well.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 05:54
|
|
|
Nihilarian posted:its not that he doesnt have a spine, they are worried about how he'll be treated by humanity if he reveals his skills I mean he was explicitly also afraid about how demoralizing it would be for his team to realize that they did that well overall because of all the debuffs MC was throwing out. It wasn't just because said MC was also trained by a demon lord and had massive destructive potential. I mean sure, black magic has a lower connotation but the Hero himself is also a walking WMD so I find it annoying the hero didn't at least let his team know how much status ailments were aiding them and even afterward they realize how much they got carried, nobody runs to the government to cry about it. Even the top ranked team in the league scouted the MC purely because they could recognize at least a fraction of his potential so it wasn't that huge a deal at the end of the day. Not at least until he might reveal he has a fraction of the former demon lords power in his body with his one-horned transformation.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 06:38
|
|
|
To be clear: the main character is the one who wants to keep it a secret. Phoenix is just respecting his wishes. I'd have to read it again to be sure but I'm pretty sure the implication is Phoenix actually wants to say it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 07:10
|
|
|
In the first chapter it’s pretty clear Phoenix is getting really upset and is about to start an argument when Remme interrupts him and quits.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 11:49
|
|
|
My point is that the story wants me to believe that it would be a huge inconvenience if Remm's secret got out but the reality is that only a fraction of what his secret is, is actually problematic if it would even result in some kind of backlash from the kingdom or the public. If he was just known as a good Black Mage nobody would really care which is evident when Aerial tries to recruit him only knowing that he's a good Black Mage and not a possible Dark Magician.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 12:14
|
|
|
the odd thing about all those fired from the party stories is that they tend to make me blame the victim. no matter how unpleasant the rest of the party might be, i always go "oh yeah, they were right to fire this person".
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 12:42
|
|
|
Guyver posted:Most of them seem to be like that. Where all but one of the other heroes realise they hosed up. Banished from the Heroes Party and Roll Over and Die have it that way. I think the sage is pretty rare, in my experience. Most of the time it's the party leader, who's usually some kind of sword-wielder. "Banished from the Hero's Party..." has to use the Sage because there's no way the Hero would have deliberately pushed Gideon Out. 'Banished..." has this whole thing where the assigned Divine Protection Class you wind up with can can have an extremely strong influence on your behavior, and in that one, the Divine Protection of the Sage seems to have a strong push towards "Decisions I make based on the facts I have are RIGHT, and if they turn out to be wrong, it's either missing facts or enemy action."
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 16:58
|
|
|
The only "Banished from..." series I liked was Housekeeping Mage From Another World for several reasons. One is that the POV isn't on the isekai'd mage but on this A-Rank adventurer interested in her, and having an outsider perspective is a refreshing take on the story. Another reason is that it treats the former party like an abusive relationship, where they isolated the mage from her friends and then pressured her into overworking herself and using up her funds to support the party. In the end, it was less "banishment" and more the mage collapsed from exhaustion and her former party looted her items and left her for dead. The third reason is that the mage's backstory is treated with respect where she's still processing the trauma while trying to move forward with her life, with support from the A-Ranker and her friends.maltesh posted:Is it just me, or is it that, in most "I was thrown out of my party because they fundamentally misunderstood how my particular abilities or the system of the world we're living in works" stories, the most interesting characters are the former party, because they're the only ones actively doing things, whereas the throwaway MC character is generally sleepwalking into a good ending. It's because the former party members are the ones who end up confronting their flaws and (sometimes) grow from it. Not to mention they face actual struggles as their group argues over the banished party member as well as learning to function/become stronger without the banished party member carrying them. Honestly, the whole "Banished from Hero's Party" has this huge flaw where it says it's about the MC moving on and starting a new chapter on their life yet it always circles back to the power fantasy of making these ungrateful jerks pay for not thinking the MC is the specialest person ever. There's also how the MC's plan after being kicked out is almost always retiring to some boring countryside to "live freely" so the former party members end up being the ones to bring in the more interesting plot and worldbuilding. gimme the GOD drat candy posted:the odd thing about all those fired from the party stories is that they tend to make me blame the victim. no matter how unpleasant the rest of the party might be, i always go "oh yeah, they were right to fire this person". Hah, yeah. It's either they truly were being a load on the party and having to carry them endangers the whole crew (and it's only when the MC leaves the party that they find some MacGuffin that makes them super strong), or they were secretly OP all along and hiding their power for no good reason (which only makes them look like a condescending rear end in a top hat). And they just meekly accept getting kicked out without bringing up the other things they bring to the table, like logistical support, being the team diplomat, or cooking their meals etc.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 19:54
|
|
|
amigolupus posted:The only "Banished from..." series I liked was Housekeeping Mage From Another World for several reasons. One is that the POV isn't on the isekai'd mage but on this A-Rank adventurer interested in her, and having an outsider perspective is a refreshing take on the story. Another reason is that it treats the former party like an abusive relationship, where they isolated the mage from her friends and then pressured her into overworking herself and using up her funds to support the party. In the end, it was less "banishment" and more the mage collapsed from exhaustion and her former party looted her items and left her for dead. The third reason is that the mage's backstory is treated with respect where she's still processing the trauma while trying to move forward with her life, with support from the A-Ranker and her friends. I remember reading this, and I also remember dropping it because it loved to keep introducing/revealing new trauma for the poor mage. I thought it came off as somewhat gratuitous, and eventually it was just too off-putting for me to continue with.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 20:30
|
|
|
I checked my list of tolerable isekais for banishment stories. And remembered one where the MC is killed by her party and turned into a plant monster. The story stops before the original party is mentioned again. https://mangadex.org/title/9f86feea-b572-4fba-9cf5-e328a3c67614/plant-monster-girl-diary And one where the MC is abandoned by her party and dies and gets reborn a few hundred years later. Also not mentioning the original party ever again. https://mangadex.org/title/a9a125c7-7090-4a1e-8a87-9b63227b651f/tenseishita-daiseijo-wa-seijo-dearu-koto-wo-hitakakusu
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 20:47
|
|
|
Nemo2342 posted:I remember reading this, and I also remember dropping it because it loved to keep introducing/revealing new trauma for the poor mage. I thought it came off as somewhat gratuitous, and eventually it was just too off-putting for me to continue with. I'm re-reading this myself because I'd forgotten it was getting an official translation but I don't remember the story being egregious with Shiori's past and circumstances. By this point in her life she's got a very solid support network both work wise and emotionally along with prince charming to sweep her off her feet. It's a fairly standard healing romance story. Also Rurii is best familiar.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 21:18
|
|
|
Welcome to Demon King Castle is perhaps unique in that, despite the initial feelings of betrayal, the story goes to great lengths to intentionally show that the old party are not monsters. Remme comes to realize his decision to downplay his abilities led to his party's overconfidence and stagnation. The party regrets how they treated him, but they dont obsess over getting him back; they still believe they can succeed with Bella, and are working hard to overcome their habits they developed from fighting with Remme propping them up. In the end it's apparent the separation was the best for all parties.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 21:44
|
|
|
the training skills one probably has the most believable version. the mc's training skills are no longer useful, and he can't contribute in any other way. but there's still a bunch of lingering feelings because he was their companion for so long. unfortunately, there's also every other part of that manga. seriously, what the heck is that?
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2023 23:38
|
|
|
Brought To You By posted:I'm re-reading this myself because I'd forgotten it was getting an official translation but I don't remember the story being egregious with Shiori's past and circumstances. By this point in her life she's got a very solid support network both work wise and emotionally along with prince charming to sweep her off her feet. It's a fairly standard healing romance story. I remember reading up until the point where they revealed all the scars on her back showing more abuse she had suffered and bailed, because I felt like every time the series started showing things getting better for her it had to toss in some new trauma to balance it out. And granted it is a matter of perspective, but to me it just felt gratuitous because I wanted to see her be happy and start healing but the author kept bringing in new problems.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2023 00:16
|
|
|
In the realm of English first Isekai, I've started reading The Wandering Inn (it also has published volumes and audiobooks) I've been really enjoying it so far, though I'm only 1/3 of the way through Vol 1. They are very long books. Each one is about as long as a Wheel of Time book. The short synopsis is Erin Solstice gets transported from Earth (Michigan specifically) to this world and dropped in front of an abandoned inn all alone. She initially has to struggle to survive in a strange world where she doesn't know what creatures could kill her or what is poison. But reasonably soon in the first book she starts to meet the cast of characters that flesh out the universe and who also start frequenting her inn as she gradually fixes up the place and becomes more proficient in inn keeping. She meets and cares for lizard men, ant men, necromancers, and even goblins in her inn. She absolutely has very rough times and the author doesn't shy away from that, but Erin does her best to maintain her positive outlook on life as she befriends the locals and builds up her inn. The series does have rpg skills and such, but at least so far, I've not seen any obnoxious stat blocks or the like.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2023 02:21
|
|
|
Good luck
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2023 03:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 07:05 |
|
|
New chapter of The Wrong Way to use Healing Magic. Two thoughts about this whole arc Usato and Nea should totally hook up, I think they have good chemistry and he's been a positive influence on her outlook. And please dear god end this trash sub-plot I don't really care about the king, his daughter, or this kingdom. The only interesting thing is the continued realization that the last Hero really had a number on this world; inspiring dark wizards to create horrible curses or how he left that one dragon in a state where it could still do harm. Nemo2342 posted:I remember reading up until the point where they revealed all the scars on her back showing more abuse she had suffered and bailed, because I felt like every time the series started showing things getting better for her it had to toss in some new trauma to balance it out. And granted it is a matter of perspective, but to me it just felt gratuitous because I wanted to see her be happy and start healing but the author kept bringing in new problems. Just finished my re-read and I'd completely forgotten about her scars. I'd just say that the aftermath of that revelation continued to push the story in a positive direction and Shiori into a better position emotionally. It doesn't feel like the series will be ending any time soon though, I'd guess 6+ volumes because there are two major plot threads The whole deal with this other kingdom and probably finally giving those assholes that abused Shiori a proper commupence that are both probably going to take up more time. We haven't even really gotten into Alec's deal either. Overall I think Shiori is happier in the current chapters and the healing began a while ago. But trauma is still trauma and will take time to really heal to a point it doesn't bind her down so oppressively.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2023 04:36
|
|