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John Wick of Dogs posted:
That's clearly Solidus Picard
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Feb 28, 2023 01:10
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SuperTeeJay posted:'I tie up loose ends...by keeping the loose end's head behind my couch!' Passing that thing around when everyone is on acid must be quite an experience, although maybe there's some other reason Sneed has it. I think Shaw backs down for basically 2 reasons, one that speaks well to his character (integrity wise) and one that doesn't: The latter is he realises if Picard starts to throw his weight around, his reputation might carry enough weight that it'll cause an actual conflict of who's in charge, at least long enough to get them killed. The former is he realises, son or not, Picard's right that Jack was trying to give himself up which basically proves he's a half decent person who they shouldn't be handing over. On a different note, after several prods both by IRL friends and the thread, I'm giving Lower Decks another chance and starting around where I quit last time. I still cringe every time they basically omit a joke just to do a 'hey, did you know Star Trek exists' reference (the line in one ep about 'there's nothing on Earth but vineyards and soul food cafes' is atrocious, it's basically an anti-joke because it's not funny by itself and if you DO remember the things it refers to, it makes you wish you were watching those instead) but the one with Boimler's gently caress-up friend from the Academy was actually pretty fun. Not sure if Badgey works for me, but at least that subplot existed to highlight Tendi and Rutherford's sexual tension, and Mariner shockingly didn't suck when she wasn't making GBS threads on everything because she's 2 kool 4 skool. And the following episode was cute although I think a lot of that leans on Toks Olagundoye having a lot of rope with me for being on DuckTales, but it does sort of rely on basically the biggest problem with Mariner as a character: she's actively hostile to sincerity which is pretty much the way to make me hate a comedy character. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Feb 28, 2023 |
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Feb 28, 2023 01:13
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nine-gear crow posted:For what little it's worth, Mac Walters did not write that, novelist William C. Dietz is the one you can blame for Kai Leng, the Cereal Killer. Oh drat, I misremembered. I still don't think Mac Walters could do any better than the hacks on Picard, but I will say that I think Drew Karpyshyn could probably write circles around them, as much of a mediocre genre guy as he is. Wish he had ended up with the reigns to 3.
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Feb 28, 2023 01:33
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Goon's log, supplemental: Alien trial episode is fine, Tendi is probably the best part, the gimmick with her redacting her story and even after everything still being jazzed to clean lint off the engineer's chair was funny, this final speech with Boimler just randomly going "hey, remember Sub Rosa" may as well be the writer pausing the episode to say that. Edit: oh gently caress off, just literally having him yell "Drumhead!", really? Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Feb 28, 2023 |
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Feb 28, 2023 01:42
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Gaz-L posted:And the following episode was cute although I think a lot of that leans on Toks Olagundoye having a lot of rope with me for being on DuckTales, but it does sort of rely on basically the biggest problem with Mariner as a character: she's actively hostile to sincerity which is pretty much the way to make me hate a comedy character. Good news, Mariner getting the verbal poo poo slapped out of her by Ramsay is the start of her beginning to develop into a much better character.
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Feb 28, 2023 01:49
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Gaz-L posted:I think Shaw backs down for basically 2 reasons, one that speaks well to his character (integrity wise) and one that doesn't: The latter is he realises if Picard starts to throw his weight around, his reputation might carry enough weight that it'll cause an actual conflict of who's in charge, at least long enough to get them killed. The former is he realises, son or not, Picard's right that Jack was trying to give himself up which basically proves he's a half decent person who they shouldn't be handing over. If you can get into season 2 you'll start to get into a lot of genuine character growth. I know exactly how you feel about Mariner, she turned me off of the whole show in season 1 after a few episodes, but she legitimately grows as a character to have vulnerabilities and while that 2 kool 4 skool never completely goes away, it softens enough that I even like Mariner now.
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Feb 28, 2023 01:50
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From what I remember it wasn't until that episode or maybe the one after that I thought Lower Decks was doing anything more than just treading water. I definitely remember the season finale really hooking me though, so if you manage the finish the season and still aren't into it then it really just might not be your kind of show.
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Feb 28, 2023 02:21
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Arrinien posted:From what I remember it wasn't until that episode or maybe the one after that I thought Lower Decks was doing anything more than just treading water. I definitely remember the season finale really hooking me though, so if you manage the finish the season and still aren't into it then it really just might not be your kind of show. Yeah, Crisis Point and No Small Parts were what really finally sold me on the concept of Lower Decks and that was at the end of a night-long binge of the first season while sweating through the side effects of a flu shot.
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Feb 28, 2023 02:28
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That Season 1 finale did everything right. Elevated a joke species into a genuine threat, introduced a legendary ship into canon on badass fashion, gave us high stakes with a literal wipe of a crew due to impulsive thinking, and showed what Mariner could do when she wasn't raging against her parental machine. It's the Series' Best Of Both Worlds, made up of parts that wouldn't make any sense in any other configuration. Just watched it again as my daughter specifically asked to do the whole 3 season run as our pre-bedtime show. Even with fresh eyes and not knowing any of the history behind any of it, she popped at for all the right moments. And she's 7. That's good writing. Appealing across a broad spectrum and hitting your points so everyone can enjoy something about the show. Hell, even the rewatch is easier on Mariner since I now know where she's been before the show starts and where she's going. Still a Boimler guy though, with a Tendy Number One.
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Feb 28, 2023 02:45
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IIRC someone actually asked McMahan in an interview if they took fan criticism of Mariner into consideration when writing season 2 and he responded that the first two seasons had already been written out ahead of time, which means it was definitely a Bashir situation where her growth arc was enitrely deliberate.
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Feb 28, 2023 02:51
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3 posted:IIRC someone actually asked McMahan in an interview if they took fan criticism of Mariner into consideration when writing season 2 and he responded that the first two seasons had already been written out ahead of time, which means it was definitely a Bashir situation where her growth arc was enitrely deliberate. Except Bashir is literally introduced with Kira shutting down his 'gosh, isn't it so wild and untamed out here' bullshit.
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Feb 28, 2023 02:53
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3 posted:IIRC someone actually asked McMahan in an interview if they took fan criticism of Mariner into consideration when writing season 2 and he responded that the first two seasons had already been written out ahead of time, which means it was definitely a Bashir situation where her growth arc was enitrely deliberate. Which is better than that time Terry Matalas and Akiva Goldsman were asked what they learned from the criticism of Picard Season 1 and their response was basically "Uuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhh [door slams, engine revs, car tires squealing away]"
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Feb 28, 2023 02:54
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SpeakSlow posted:That Season 1 finale did everything right. I stand by No Small Parts being not only one of the best Star Trek episodes of all time, but also a contender for best episode title. 
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Feb 28, 2023 02:57
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Gaz-L posted:Except Bashir is literally introduced with Kira shutting down his 'gosh, isn't it so wild and untamed out here' bullshit. And Mariner's introduced with p much the entire command crew hating her guts? Neither of them stop being dipshits until they have actual growth arcs into the second seasons of their respective shows, if DS9 had gotten canceled after one season, Julian would've been remembered in Trek history as the most insufferable doctor in the franchise.
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Feb 28, 2023 02:59
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nine-gear crow posted:Which is better than that time Terry Matalas and Akiva Goldsman were asked what they learned from the criticism of Picard Season 1 and their response was basically "Uuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhh [door slams, engine revs, car tires squealing away]" My favorite part about that is when Covid happened, Goldsman said in an interview that the shutdown gave them a ton of time to really hammer down and write the entire season before they even start shooting and it was going to be great. Comedy smash cut to one year later: Goldsman is literally saying “lol I hope it comes together in editing oh well”
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Feb 28, 2023 03:00
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HD DAD posted:My favorite part about that is when Covid happened, Goldsman said in an interview that the shutdown gave them a ton of time to really hammer down and write the entire season before they even start shooting and it was going to be great. God I wish I could be as incompetent as Akiva Goldsman and Terry Matalas for a solid year and get paid like they do for being such unmitigated cock ups.
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Feb 28, 2023 03:11
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3 posted:And Mariner's introduced with p much the entire command crew hating her guts? Neither of them stop being dipshits until they have actual growth arcs into the second seasons of their respective shows, if DS9 had gotten canceled after one season, Julian would've been remembered in Trek history as the most insufferable doctor in the franchise. We're also primed to dislike the senior staff. Ransom's an rear end, and Freeman and T'Ana are jerks. There;s a difference in how they're introduced. DS9 says "Bashir's patronising and naive, and that isn't great", LD says "Mariner's cool and better than these stuck up officers and the lame other guy who whines and cries".
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Feb 28, 2023 03:14
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Gaz-L posted:We're also primed to dislike the senior staff. Ransom's an rear end, and Freeman and T'Ana are jerks. There;s a difference in how they're introduced. DS9 says "Bashir's patronising and naive, and that isn't great", LD says "Mariner's cool and better than these stuck up officers and the lame other guy who whines and cries". I mean I don't know what else to tell you since at this point it's pretty clear you've made up your mind about the character, I'm just describing the structure of the story as it happens after the part where you already said you stopped watching. Like if you don't like her as a character that's fine, but I'm making the comparison for a reason.
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Feb 28, 2023 03:18
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3 posted:I mean I don't know what else to tell you since at this point it's pretty clear you've made up your mind about the character, I'm just describing the structure of the story as it happens after the part where you already said you stopped watching. Like if you don't like her as a character that's fine, but I'm making the comparison for a reason. I literally said I am still watching, but y'know, don't actually read the posts or anything. And I'm making the point that there's a difference in introducing a character as flawed and telling the audience that they're flawed, and introducing a character as flawed but telling the audience that their flaws are actually super-cool strengths while they stunt on the antagonists. Like, even people who like Lower Decks have basically been saying she's terrible for the first People say she gets better, and I believe them, but that doesn't make her well written at the start, and it 100% feels less like 'we had a plan the whole time' and more the DS9 style of lucking into an arc while trying to fix a bad part of the show. Incidentally, just finished Crisis Point, and it's a bit on the nose at the end. I think the turn being Tendi's going "uh what the gently caress dude, you're being kinda space-racist and also weirdly into disemboweling our friends" would've been better. And it still has the jarring 'reference that only makes sense out of universe" stuff at the start with the Xon namedrop. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Feb 28, 2023 |
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Feb 28, 2023 03:21
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Gaz-L posted:People say she gets better, and I believe them, but that doesn't make her well written at the start, and it 100% feels less like 'we had a plan the whole time' and more the DS9 style of lucking into an arc while trying to fix a bad part of the show. I am reading your posts which is where my responses are coming from, so I don't understand why you've decided to be flippant at me, I'm saying that this specific argument: quote:introducing a character as flawed but telling the audience that their flaws are actually super-cool strengths. is spurious because the text of the show is very clearly not saying this. You can believe whatever you want about the writing, death of the author and all that, my point is that her character writing in the early part of the show, obnoxious as it is, was deliberate, and her arc wasn't some kind of desperate course correction on the part of the writers.
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Feb 28, 2023 03:26
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3 posted:I am reading your posts which is where my responses are coming from, so I don't understand why you've decided to be flippant at me, I'm saying that this specific argument: You said I had stopped watching when said posts said the opposite. I apologise for being flip, but that is what made me feel like you weren't reading them fully. And the latter point, I'll agree to disagree. I'll buy the showrunner saying it wasn't in response to viewer feedback, but I can very much believe it being something that came out of the writer's room much as any show realises they made mistakes early on. Maybe even just realising the actor was selling it harder than they intended and modulating the scripts to match her intensity. But the text of the show very much, to me, says "this character is our lead, so the bosses who criticise her are in the wrong". Edit: In the first few eps, is what I mean. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Feb 28, 2023 |
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Feb 28, 2023 03:30
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Gaz-L posted:Maybe even just realising the actor was selling it harder than they intended and modulating the scripts to match her intensity. I mean that I can definitely buy, every time I've seen Tawny Newsome in an interview she has been extremely energetic and at like 110%.
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Feb 28, 2023 03:32
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3 posted:I mean that I can definitely buy, every time I've seen Tawny Newsome in an interview she has been extremely energetic and at like 110%. Mariner in live action is going to be amazing.
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Feb 28, 2023 03:36
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mllaneza posted:Mariner in live action is going to be amazing. I am unreasonably excited for that crossover episode. I know after seeing it though I'm not going to be satisfied until they do some episode where the whole cast gets to appear in live action.
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Feb 28, 2023 03:47
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I remember someone here saying that Mariner was one of the worst characters in all of fiction during season 1
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Feb 28, 2023 04:00
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Mariner's my fav on LDS. I just ignore the whining about her like I do for Janeway. Haters gonna moan perpetually.
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Feb 28, 2023 04:20
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Watched S3E2 earlier tonight and....I liked it better than the previous episode??? My brain can not handle this. I found it rather enjoyable. I am actually excited to see the next episode. But please give me a proper Jean-Luc meanmug. I just want to see him scowl in disgust at someone with such intensity it cripples them, and us as the audience. Patrick Stewart was so good at it in TNG he must still remember how to do it. 
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Feb 28, 2023 06:05
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Mental Hospitality posted:Watched S3E2 earlier tonight and....I liked it better than the previous episode??? It is, but that's a low bar to clear.
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Feb 28, 2023 07:28
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I’ve been playing with an AI RPG sim and it’s fun for the most part, but there’s a limit in its memory, so after a while it starts forgetting things and any storyline you were following starts falling apart and solid goals established at the beginning vanish. It reminds me strongly of Picard where things just happen without cause or consequence. Honestly S2 of Picard being AI-written would make SO much sense.
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Feb 28, 2023 13:12
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Goon's Log, additional: Finished season 1 of Lower Decks. Verdict: It definitely finishes stronger than it starts, but there's also definitely elements of the show's DNA that I'm probably never gonna totally get past. I liked the finale enough that I'm gonna go on to season 2. I like the show decently well when it just tells a story that has some funny elements, instead of shoehorning in references to Scotty or 'TOS' every 2 seconds to make the universe smaller or straight up pull me out and remind me this is a TV show. I honestly think the show would be stronger if it had the TNG early mandate of no direct references to characters/events from the old shows. Those 'jokes' (as I've said before, they're rarely actually jokes because if you take the reference out there's nothing actually left) hurt the show every time, and often they're in the teaser so I'm barely even able to get into the show before it happens. Plus, Mariner gets a LOT of those lines, which doesn't help my opinion of her. I half think that Tendi is so popular because she doesn't get those lines most of the time. Tendi's also got the advantage that she's a secondary focus, so being in the B plot means she can just be funny and charming most of the time. Rutherford is fine, and Eugene Cordero is great, but a lot of his stuff feels a bit too one note. Boimler being a suck-up is funnier than him being just a squealing wuss, so it's better when they lean into that. And Mariner we've litigated, although I'll say I think it'd be easier to like her if she rebelled against specific kinds of rules, instead of just seeming to act out at being told what to do in a paramilitary organisation. I think they're aiming for, like, Hawkeye from MASH, but way overshot. The best episodes were the ones that stood up as ideas that would be fine played straight, like the one with Boimler's friend, or the one with his girlfriend from space-Canada or the finale.
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Feb 28, 2023 18:44
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Gaz-L posted:Those 'jokes' (as I've said before, they're rarely actually jokes because if you take the reference out there's nothing actually left) hurt the show every time, and often they're in the teaser so I'm barely even able to get into the show before it happens. Gaz-L posted:The best episodes were the ones that stood up as ideas that would be fine played straight, like the one with Boimler's friend, or the one with his girlfriend from space-Canada or the finale. Agreed, and there are a couple of GREAT examples in Season 2.
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Feb 28, 2023 18:55
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To be clear, it's not 'All References Bad'. It's when the reference makes no sense for the character to say in context and is ONLY there so the audience recognises a thing. Like Mariner saying she'll give Boimler to 'an Armus' or the aforementioned TOS exchange (which sucks even more because the bit with Landru was pretty funny and then they go and basically spend 30 seconds going "Hey remember how this is a TV show, don't get caught up in the story now!"). Or randomly namedropping episodes. Not even talking about the plots, just literally saying the name of episodes (Boimler randomly yelling 'Drumhead!' in the trial episode is kind of the worst case offender, because that doesn't even make sense for him to drop it even if you assume he knows the events of that episode)
Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Feb 28, 2023 |
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Feb 28, 2023 19:10
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To be fair these ensigns in particular are pretty consistently depicted as like starfleet super fans who probably read all the logs they can and memorize that poo poo. Boimler and Tendi in particular do a lot of hero worship.
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Feb 28, 2023 19:16
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John Wick of Dogs posted:To be fair these ensigns in particular are pretty consistently depicted as like starfleet super fans who probably read all the logs they can and memorize that poo poo. Boimler and Tendi in particular do a lot of hero worship. Which is fine, to a point, but I find Tendi not knowing what a dog is funnier than Boimler stopping to yell "Hey, remember Sub Rosa, guys? Remember?" with no actual gag to go with it.
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Feb 28, 2023 19:21
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That's mostly gone in season 3 and the references move more to being easter eggs in the background or integrated into the plot.
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Feb 28, 2023 19:49
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Alchenar posted:That's mostly gone in season 3 and the references move more to being easter eggs in the background or integrated into the plot. "Is this a Frame of Mind thing?"
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Feb 28, 2023 20:00
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Episode titles are used as shorthand because in most cases it would be tedious for boimler to say "is this like that time Commander Riker got kidnapped and gaslit by an alien species???" If you don't like the meta nature of the comedy then so be it, but I think it's kind of a silly standard to expect from a 23 minute comedy show. If it were happening on Picard, well, it'd still be the least of Picard's problems but it would be a lot more egregious.
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Feb 28, 2023 20:15
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Professor Beetus posted:Episode titles are used as shorthand because in most cases it would be tedious for boimler to say "is this like that time Commander Riker got kidnapped and gaslit by an alien species???" Watch this week's episode of Picard has JL saying to Beverly "This isn't like the time you got Sub Rosa'd, is it?"
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Feb 28, 2023 20:18
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Professor Beetus posted:Episode titles are used as shorthand because in most cases it would be tedious for boimler to say "is this like that time Commander Riker got kidnapped and gaslit by an alien species???" Yeah but as others said, once you remove the reference there's no joke there. It's just the characters saying episode titles.
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Feb 28, 2023 20:21
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nine-gear crow posted:Watch this week's episode of Picard has JL saying to Beverly "This isn't like the time you got Sub Rosa'd, is it?" I probably shouldn't have dared post it tbh
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Feb 28, 2023 20:21
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