The US will lose WW3

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > The US will lose WW3

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Frosted Flake posted:

I think this came up in some lecture I attended on the Victorian Royal Navy and cruisers, which were like 15% of the entire state expenditure: the point of warships is to risk and lose them, it's why countries take on the enormous cost of having them accomplish absolutely nothing in peacetime.

it�s about a third of what a navy does. the other 2/3s is accomplished mostly by sitting and doing nothing.

# ? Mar 2, 2023 01:30

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# ? May 26, 2024 03:17

fits my needs: Jan 1, 2011; Grimey Drawer

https://twitter.com/Militarydotcom/status/1631088258502336512?s=20

quote:

Black said he jokes about getting a sense of what America thinks about its military by the movies that come out, and the only decent military movie in recent years, in his opinion, was "Top Gun: Maverick," which he called a "flashback to the '80s." That film was made with heavy participation from the U.S. Navy, which gave filmmakers extensive access to an aircraft carrier and other military hardware.

...

"For parents and influencers, there are concerns over psychological harm," Wormuth told soldiers during a conference last year, adding that she believes the coverage of those issues is creating a warped perception of the service. "Parents see headlines about suicides and sexual harassment and assault in the military."

The enlisted chiefs in their testimony before Congress didn't blame the media, but rather admitted the military has an image problem. They added that the pool of those interested in serving is shrinking, down to its lowest point in 15 years, 9% among youth, according to a poll cited by Grinston.

And just 23% of Americans ages 17 to 24 meet the requirements to serve, largely due to physical fitness requirements and past legal troubles often tied to illicit substances.

"This is not just an Army problem. It's not just a military problem. If we cannot build an Army able to accomplish the missions I mentioned at the beginning, this is an American problem," Grinston said. "We need a national call to public service."

# ? Mar 2, 2023 01:31

Mister Bates: Aug 4, 2010

Frosted Flake posted:

I think this came up in some lecture I attended on the Victorian Royal Navy and cruisers, which were like 15% of the entire state expenditure: the point of warships is to risk and lose them, it's why countries take on the enormous cost of having them accomplish absolutely nothing in peacetime. The Royal Navy paid for all of these ships to bob at anchor in the middle of nowhere, cruise around the world's oceans, to be replaced every 10 years as they wore out and became obsolete. They even set up an incomprehensibly expensive network of coaling and telegraph stations around the world.

For example:

HMS Monmouth, which cost �94 270 000 in today's money

and HMS Good Hope, which cost �95 345 000

They spent the decade before the Great War on distant stations, just hanging out, inspecting dhows and junks, essentially.

That's hardly worth �200M is it? No. The cost would be justified in wartime, that's the only way for it to make sense.

Well, when the war started, they did their job. They went into action against a German fleet, and were consequently sunk in about 2 hours. Which isn't to belittle them or the men who died with them, this is what ships are for, really. They intercepted German ships that threatened lines of communication, which is why they were way out there anyway, why there were distant coaling stations and everything else. They fought a sharp battle, which is what the tens of thousands of pounds spend on naval guns and ammunition was supposed to be for, took some hits, which justified the tens of thousands spent on steel armour. It's just, this is how war works, and the cost you have to pay. You lose ships, you lose men.

But it caused these sort of insane reaction among the British press and public. They were practically howling for blood. So that, the next time the Royal Navy ran into that German squadron, it seems like they didn't allow the disabled German ships to surrender. That became institutionalized as the belief that it was impossible to capture modern steel warships, or for them to strike their colours and surrender. The same thing happened a generation later. After Bismarck sunk HMS Hood, the pride of the Royal Navy, the public again went through this sort of convulsion, and when Bismarck was encountered in a second engagement it was pounded far beyond the point where it could retaliate, for hours. It was obliterated at close range, and the crew had no opportunity to surrender, relatively few prisoners were picked up.

It seems to me that the reaction to losing an aircraft carrier would have a similar effect. I can't point to why exactly, which of these elements combine to create that result, I just feel like the reaction would be something similar.

it would be even worse because the casualties would be in the same ballpark as the total US death toll from the entire Iraq War combined, a scale of mass death that the US military has completely forgotten how to deal with and which isn�t even supposed to be possible anymore

the US military being, not just strong, but literally invincible and literally incapable of losing a war, is an article of faith here, one that many people believe so fervently that people routinely claim that the Vietnam War technically counts as a US victory because they killed more people than the Vietnamese did (�American tactical victory� is the phrase they like to use). death on that scale is something the military is supposed to inflict on other people, not suffer itself.

I don�t know exactly how they would react but I know it would completely and permanently shatter some people�s psyches

# ? Mar 2, 2023 02:21

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

Ships exist to get sunk the same way tanks exist to get blown up, jets exist to get shot down, shells exist to get fired

# ? Mar 2, 2023 02:46

sullat: Jan 9, 2012

Slavvy posted:

Ships exist to get sunk the same way tanks exist to get blown up, jets exist to get shot down, shells exist to get fired

Tell me you're the lead designer of the Vasa without telling me you're the lead designer of the Vasa.

# ? Mar 2, 2023 04:54

GlassEye-Boy: Jul 12, 2001

maybe the Chinese will make one that works.

GlassEye-Boy has issued a correction as of 06:15 on Mar 2, 2023

# ? Mar 2, 2023 06:10

Centrist Committee: Aug 6, 2019

i think they build them just to show they can

# ? Mar 2, 2023 06:18

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

Then they will let them sink to show they could sink American ones, if they wanted to

# ? Mar 2, 2023 06:23

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

Bar Ran Dun posted:

I think you’ll find that all red blooded Americans know Maverick and Iceman.

which is (not) a joke response to this. I’m pretty sure FF is right and we would lose our collective poo poo in an recently unprecedented way. the loss of a carrier would be a near Pearl Harbor type shock to most Americans.

Losing a carrier would be near definitive proof that the US isn't invincible which goes against evry bit of ingrained propaganda over the last 80 years

# ? Mar 2, 2023 06:36

Wheeee: Mar 11, 2001; When a tree grows, it is soft and pliable. But when it's dry and hard, it dies.

Hardness and strength are death's companions. Flexibility and softness are the embodiment of life.

That which has become hard shall not triumph.

what if it turns out all the fancy new Chinese stuff is just as lovely and unreliable as the fancy new American stuff

# ? Mar 2, 2023 07:26

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

Wheeee posted:

what if it turns out all the fancy new Chinese stuff is just as lovely and unreliable as the fancy new American stuff

Yeah all those thousands of Chinese trains will start derailing any second now

# ? Mar 2, 2023 07:37

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

https://twitter.com/StilichoReads/status/1631009962641195008

quote:

Thread with excerpts from the SIGAR report on the collapse of the Afghan Security Forces: �
Afghan troops went into "survival mode" after the US-Taliban deal in Doha, seeing it as a sign their government was on its way out. The US forced Afghanistan to release 5,000 Taliban prisoners, who subsequently became the core of their final offensive.

US forces left Bagram in the middle of the the night without telling the Afghan commander who was supposed to take over. They disconnected the electricity before they left.

Up until the end, Ashraf Ghani and other senior Afghan officials didn't believe the US would go through with the withdrawal. Ghani's unofficial contacts in Washington reinforced this impression.

"For some ANDSF, fighting the Taliban was a paycheck, not a cause worth losing one's life over", although man fought bravely to defend their own homes. The Taliban, OTOH, built cohesion with religious fanaticism and units of men with preexisting personal ties.

"DOD attempted to create a national army in Afghanistan [that was] a mirror image to the U.S. military . . . The ANDSF's dependency on the United States was a feature, not a glitch, of the U.S.-Afghan military relationship."

Afghan commandos could and would fight hard, but they were degraded by overuse, the end of US support, and the same logistics problems that plagued the rest of the Afghan military. Local commanders frequently used them as ordinary infantry.

Ashraf Ghani centralized power in the hands of a few westernized officials. His national security advisor (qualifications: a PhD in virtual reality entertainment and communications) frequently made low level tactical decisions that bypassed the normal chain of command.

To crack down on corruption and incompetence, Ghani's government fired large numbers of police chiefs and replaced them with young SOF/Intel NCOs. These men were more loyal but had no local connections and could not mobilize local populations to fight the Taliban.

ANDSF officers were divided into factions -- old men who fought for the communists, their mujahideen enemies, and young US trained officers. Ghani sidelined the latter, who he viewed as more loyal to the US than to his own government.

Ghani wanted to crack down on corruption and empower young technocrats, but this had the effect of breaking up patronage networks that kept warlords and tribal leaders loyal to the government.

Many officials accused Ghani of deliberately undermining local leaders, causing them to fall to the Taliban, in order to consolidate his power.

Afghan troops were getting ready to defend Kabul when Ghani suddenly fled the country. Immediately, all plans for resistance collapsed.

The Taliban focused on isolating military bases and then persuading the soldiers to surrender after they ran out of food, water, and ammunition. They often used tribal elders as go-betweens for negotiations.

The US saw the Afghan National Police as a paramilitary counterinsurgency force and structured them accordingly. There was little focus on ensuring they could prevent crime against ordinary people.

No single agency or person had responsibility for US support to the Afghan government. Traditionally such activities were all under the US ambassador but this was scrapped after 9/11, with the establishment of a parallel military chain of command running up to the DoD.

Afghan soldiers shook down civilians, stole fuel, and sold their equipment, including to the Taliban. 8/10 Afghan soldiers sold their ammunition for personal profit. Most lacked bank accounts, so had to rely on middlemen to access their pay who took up to half of it as "fees".

The US instituted a rule that only 15% of the former Northern Alliance militia could join the new ANA. This was supposed to prevent ethnic minorities from dominating the army but froze out many loyal and capable fighters.

The ANDSF was initially equipped with rugged and relatively easy to maintain Soviet equipment, but this was steadily replaced with more complex US gear. This left them dependent on US contractors for maintenance, all of whom pulled out with the US withdrawal.

The last Afghan finance minister claimed that at least 80% of Afghan soldiers on the rolls were "ghosts" -- made up so their commanders could pocket their pay. The minister of the interior could only verify that 6,000 out of his 17,000 local police were real.

Report on why the US' Afghanistan fell to the Taliban just came out, choice quotes in the tweet thread above. Link for the report is here:https://t.co/tZnwl799yT

# ? Mar 2, 2023 10:15

ScrubLeague: Feb 11, 2007; Nap Ghost

fits my needs posted:

https://twitter.com/Militarydotcom/status/1631088258502336512?s=20

wow it's almost like using national islamophobia to go to war in iraq and destroying a generation of young bodies and minds for literally nothing is bad for jingoism

# ? Mar 2, 2023 10:36

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Danann posted:

https://twitter.com/StilichoReads/status/1631009962641195008

Report on why the US' Afghanistan fell to the Taliban just came out, choice quotes in the tweet thread above. Link for the report is here:https://t.co/tZnwl799yT

Someday I'll be able to talk about the idiot we had come in proposing low level airdrops of supplies to the Panjshir Valley so that the "National Resistance Front" could out-Taliban the Taliban.

# ? Mar 2, 2023 10:56

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

Wheeee posted:

what if it turns out all the fancy new Chinese stuff is just as lovely and unreliable as the fancy new American stuff

fortunately china has the world's largest shipbuilding industry and a government that can actually get poo poo done to fall back on if a new design turns out to be a dud

# ? Mar 2, 2023 11:06

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

Frosted Flake posted:

Someday I'll be able to talk about the idiot we had come in proposing low level airdrops of supplies to the Panjshir Valley so that the "National Resistance Front" could out-Taliban the Taliban.

hey now, the important thing is to look like you're doing something while you keep failing upwards

# ? Mar 2, 2023 11:07

Isentropy: Dec 12, 2010

Wheeee posted:

what if it turns out all the fancy new Chinese stuff is just as lovely and unreliable as the fancy new American stuff

China doesn't have the profit motive/"gotta make it in 50 states"/"subcontract forever" stuff rotting their industry though?

# ? Mar 2, 2023 12:40

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

I think the whole "scare" came from the fact that there was a model of an LCS-like ship spotted in at a Chinese expo in 2017 or so, but then it was never built. It wouldn't be the first time some random model was put out and nothing came of it.

The Next-Gen Chinese frigate design looks a lot more conventional and is pretty much a larger/upgunnded version of their current 54a.

# ? Mar 2, 2023 13:07

Trimson Grondag 3: Jul 1, 2007; Clapping Larry

all nations have constituencies who want money directed to them, and military procurement is a big gravy train. I think sometimes this thread sees these sort of issues as being US specific but I�m sure military procurement is wildly corrupt and produces pork barrelling the same way in Spain, in China, in Russia, in Denmark. the difference seems to be the pie is so much bigger in the US and that at least in China they realise that sure you make sure your hometown gets the contract for making tanks treads or whatever, but at the end of the day you still have to ship a plausibly working tank. parts of the US military (the Navy in particular) have lost the ability to even get to �plausibly working� any more.

# ? Mar 2, 2023 13:07

Zodium: Jun 19, 2004

Trimson Grondag 3 posted:

all nations have constituencies who want money directed to them, and military procurement is a big gravy train. I think sometimes this thread sees these sort of issues as being US specific but I�m sure military procurement is wildly corrupt and produces pork barrelling the same way in Spain, in China, in Russia, in Denmark. the difference seems to be the pie is so much bigger in the US and that at least in China they realise that sure you make sure your hometown gets the contract for making tanks treads or whatever, but at the end of the day you still have to ship a plausibly working tank. parts of the US military (the Navy in particular) have lost the ability to even get to �plausibly working� any more.

here in denmark it's somewhat inverted. since we don't make a lot of military hardware, there's not much grifting to be done, and so we keep running out of bullets or shells to even practice shooting with. we buy the minimum we can get away with as tribute to the empire.

# ? Mar 2, 2023 13:13

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

�after the Doha agreement was signed afghan soldiers knew they were not the winners�

took �em that goddamn long to figure out huh

# ? Mar 2, 2023 13:19

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

There is grifting to be had everywhere, I would say there is far more efficiency from state-owned MIC firms than private ones though and at least the government can conduct quality control/accept platforms it actually needs/keep costs down. The problem with the Western MIC it is very much run like a business and the military is just a customer.

# ? Mar 2, 2023 13:20

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

I keeping with the observation someone made about China being a nation of engineers and how firms are allowed to try out different designs as prototypes and for the export market but seem directed by the state for PLA equipment, it wouldn't surprise me if they have a freer hand in seeking profit on export models while meeting military needs for domestic ones. Much of what we see at arms shows never enters PLA inventory, and that would make sense if the PLA was not really the target audience but export customers.

# ? Mar 2, 2023 13:43

Animal-Mother: Feb 14, 2012; RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT

Mister Bates posted:

I don�t know exactly how they would react but I know it would completely and permanently shatter some people�s psyches

"Remember the Reagan!" is gonna be so annoying to see on the front page of the times

# ? Mar 2, 2023 19:41

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

remember the reagan because he sure couldn't

# ? Mar 2, 2023 19:42

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Veterans to Farmers determined to expand farming opportunities for women Veterans

quote:

Farming uses many of the same skills essential to the ethos of the U.S. military: hard work, attention to detail and service before self, to name a few.

In 2013, Veterans to Farmers launched to allow Veterans to re-utilize those skills while taking on the challenge of continuing to feed our growing nation and securing our food sovereignty. Its classes provide the hands-on training needed to learn about the many ways a Veteran may participate in agriculture. Although the word �agriculture� summons to mind rows of food and huge tractors, agriculture is really much, much more, with dozens of ways to contribute.

Since 2013, Veterans to Farmers has trained more than 150 Veterans, preparing them with the knowledge and skills necessary to start a farm, work on a farm and grow their own food.

It has not taken the organization by surprise that its classes have been predominantly male.

With that in mind, Veterans to Farmers is determined to expand agricultural opportunities to women Veterans. Currently, 17.3% of the active-duty U.S. military is comprised of women. Those women contribute to the readiness and well-being of the military community across the globe.

Much like the military, women in agriculture are often underrepresented. Only 33% of women in the United States make up the agricultural labor force. And of that, only 14% of those women own their own farm, controlling a meager 7% of farmland in the United States.

You can turn through the pages of history and find it covered with women that changed the trajectory of agriculture. They are seldom recognized for their contributions, but without them we wouldn�t have things like modern genetics, new and revolutionary farm equipment or agriculture in general. Evidence suggests that women started collecting seeds in the fertile lands we now call the Middle East. And from that simple act, the birth of civilization was made possible at the hands of women.

It�s pleasing to report that, in the U.S. military and in agriculture, signs point to rising numbers of women in both fields of work!

To date, Veterans to Farmers has partnered with the Denver Botanic Gardens and Altius Farms in Denver. You will meet some of Colorado�s most remarkable women farmers in both places. These farmers plan, plant and harvest thousands of pounds of beautiful food each season for the local community. Farming is arduous work, and running a farm is even more complicated. Veterans to Farmers aims to help the Veteran �beginning farmer� start with the community and resources necessary for success.

The USDA farm bill defines a beginning farmer as someone who has materially and substantially participated in any farm or ranch operation for 10 years or less. In the attempt to provide more access for Veterans and women, the bill categorizes them as a �socially disadvantaged� group, providing increased funding for the beginning farmer. You can learn more about this on the USDA�s website.

The nucleus of the Veterans to Farmers� mission is offering Veterans a holistic approach to community and post-traumatic growth. The organization is honored to provide Veterans with a healthy space to learn and connect with other Veterans while learning new skills. It�s operating on the notion that with enough of us answering the call, Veterans can make a notable impact in feeding their communities.

Visit the Veterans to Farmers website to learn more.

oh man we're bringing back Roman soldier-farmers! Cincinnatus ftw!!!

# ? Mar 3, 2023 06:52

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

drat, over 150 farmers trained you say? that's definitely gonna ensure food security for a country of 300+ million

# ? Mar 3, 2023 10:46

PhilippAchtel: May 31, 2011

KomradeX posted:

If China Wounds A U.S. Carrier, The Navy Is Ill-Equipped To Come To The Rescue

Of course it assumes the carrier will survive

Oh cool. I guess we need to give the MIC more money.

# ? Mar 3, 2023 10:57

Palladium: May 8, 2012; Very Good
✔️✔️✔️✔️

have they tried taking the money from zelensky's cayman island accounts

# ? Mar 3, 2023 11:02

PhilippAchtel: May 31, 2011

skooma512 posted:

They'll be emotionally impacted because the TV will tell them that they're supposed to be shocked and mournful and enraged.

# ? Mar 3, 2023 11:05

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

gradenko_2000 posted:

Veterans to Farmers determined to expand farming opportunities for women Veterans

oh man we're bringing back Roman soldier-farmers! Cincinnatus ftw!!!

# ? Mar 3, 2023 16:25

Stairmaster: Jun 8, 2012

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1630992819455246338

# ? Mar 3, 2023 16:28

Cao Ni Ma: May 25, 2010

I hope there is a daily countdown until they have enough material to make the bomb

# ? Mar 3, 2023 16:30

Palladium: May 8, 2012; Very Good
✔️✔️✔️✔️

lots of babies in those uranium incubators

# ? Mar 3, 2023 16:35

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Stairmaster posted:

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1630992819455246338

https://twitter.com/TheCradleMedia/status/1631359111500554255

hmm

# ? Mar 3, 2023 17:02

Best Friends: Nov 4, 2011

gradenko_2000 posted:

Veterans to Farmers determined to expand farming opportunities for women Veterans

oh man we're bringing back Roman soldier-farmers! Cincinnatus ftw!!!

I have a friend who did that program! it seems nice.

he is a househusband with a small plot so in his case it�s really just bringing back peasant agriculture.

# ? Mar 3, 2023 17:50