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It's been said a million times in this thread but lol at old suits trying and failing to understand the device they're selling Taking a massively transformative entertainment device and sinking billions to sell it like a dell workstation is seriously one of the most disappointing ways this technology could have played out
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Mar 2, 2023 22:12
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Hadlock posted:20,000,000 I saw a store this week that had 6 Quest 2’s.
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Mar 2, 2023 22:34
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Lemming posted:I'm at the extreme end at this point where I think basically every game would be better with straight up gorilla locomotion, Agree/Disagree. I wouldn't want gorilla tags exact movement in a shooter for example. I'd prefer it more like raptor labs did where you have to activate the "grab" to move and theres a bit of slide etc with it. But yeah, everything would benefit from arm swing to some level without a doubt. orange juche posted:Lemming is one of the devs for Gorilla Tag, and while movement in gorilla tag works amazing for gorilla tag, I would be a bit hesitant implementing that motion in a game where you are not a gorilla. However I am not a dev If you set it up like Pro-Loco like raptor labs does, where you have to grab and pull the world, it works great in "everything". We're setting it up in a bow shooter ffs and it works great 
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Mar 2, 2023 22:41
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Manager Hoyden posted:It's been said a million times in this thread but lol at old suits trying and failing to understand the device they're selling Lol at people thinking it's a "massively transformative entertainment device" instead of just an expensive toy with no mass appeal.
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Mar 2, 2023 22:48
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Duck and Cover posted:Lol at people thinking it's a "massively transformative entertainment device" instead of just an expensive toy with no mass appeal. They'd do better playing to the market they have. It doesn't need to be the next playstation, it has a perfectly fine footprint right now. I mean, I am all for sinking money into more subsidized hardware but they'd do better right now focusing on hitting singles and doubles on the entertainment side.
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Mar 2, 2023 22:52
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Duck and Cover posted:Lol at people thinking it's a "massively transformative entertainment device" instead of just an expensive toy with no mass appeal. Call it what you want but it enables a completely novel kind of entertainment media consumption I don't really agree that it has no mass appeal - there are tens of millions of these things that people have paid money to own. But yeah it hasn't reached critical mass (and may never do so) and I think that's a marketing and design philosophy problem rather than a failing of the concept/technology itself
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Mar 2, 2023 22:56
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VR is pretty transformative for flight sims so I'll be incredibly sad when this whole thing fails in part because a single company bought most of the devs willing to work with the tech and then either killed their games or have them working on poo poo no one in the world wants to do like having work meetings in VR. There are issues with mass appeal for VR (some unavoidable like space requirements) but I feel like a good amount of those could be corrected or improved if any company working on the tech was willing to make it be a gaming system instead of the next new cubicle.
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Mar 2, 2023 23:00
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I think the market is similar to the early 90's PC market. Everyone knows these things will eventually take over, but they're too bulky and isolating to use for the average non-turbodork. When these things are no bigger than sunglasses then it will be insane to imagine not having one. But until then, we get...
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Mar 2, 2023 23:04
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Nuts and Gum posted:I think the market is similar to the early 90's PC market. Everyone knows these things will eventually take over, but they're too bulky and isolating to use for the average non-turbodork. When these things are no bigger than sunglasses then it will be insane to imagine not having one. But until then, we get... This is a lot of it IMO. The consumer space is weird. The education/business sector on the other hand is pretty great. Its getting better with headsets getting smaller. Like, I know more than 1 or 2 normal non tech non nerd people with quests. Most of the girls my s/o work with have bought em to play beat saber and poo poo with. Do they get used daily? Naw, but they do get used.
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Mar 2, 2023 23:12
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I've been playing a lot of GT7 on PSVR2. I'd only played a bit of PSVR and a mate's Quest prior. At first I was one of the people a little disappointed in it being kind of blurry and not as high res or whatever. Then I cast my mind back to those units and this thing is absolutely light years ahead of them. I've got it set up right and it's comfortable to play with and the game does look great despite a few drawbacks. Simpler games like Tetris effect on the other hand feel almost faultless in the headset. Those small gripes aside, I will never play GT7 or other Sim racers on a television again. Playing in VR is as big or bigger than playing with a good racing wheel for a number of reasons. Primarily being able to exercise real judgement on your cornering and braking, but more importantly it is simply way more fun. I don't love the wave your arms around games (stuff like pistol whip is very fun and the novelty is decent enough), but for cockpit based games this is absolutely amazing. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on the next few generations of headsets and going with a PC rig once I feel like the bridge between PSVR2 and whatever is new becomes large enough. Eagerly awaiting the day that these things can display proper videogames in 4k.
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Mar 2, 2023 23:18
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I've been playing more Pathcraft, which I had it kind of forgotten in the last month. I'm near puzzle 60 (of 80). Now I can say I like it less than at first. It has some flaws, like the 'select' bounding box being placed weirdly in your 3d hand model (you would think the half extender index finger is the 'pointer', but it isn't the case), the cannons have a super annoying sound (ideal to think what path you have to do in a puzzle game...) and in general puzzles rely too much on buttons and triggers, instead of places blocks in a creative way. Funnily enough I would have preferred something closer to good ol' Lemmings. I also tried Divine Duel, and yes it's totally a Blaston clone. It has some good ideas like a more varied repertoire of weapons/skills (boomerangs, axes, shields, but also spells, semi automatic crossbows, summoning minions, etc). It's different from Blaston in that the players are put further away so it's a less intensive phsyical exercise, there is more time to avoid the enemy. However it has two problems: lots of weapons don't feel particularly good to use, it all too floaty and disconnected, and it seems it only has a NA server, nothing for EU players. I had 200ms in the UI... Oh yeah, and the monetization seems stronger than in Blaston, with 2 of the four gods being locked in the store.
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Mar 3, 2023 00:14
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Nuts and Gum posted:I think the market is similar to the early 90's PC market. Everyone knows these things will eventually take over, but they're too bulky and isolating to use for the average non-turbodork. When these things are no bigger than sunglasses then it will be insane to imagine not having one. But until then, we get... PCs are a useful tools, VR doesn't have nearly the potential to be. I sit on my rear end to use it, while VR wants me to move my arms to do basic poo poo like reloading a gun in a videogame. Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Mar 3, 2023 |
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Mar 3, 2023 00:22
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Duck and Cover posted:PCs are a useful tools, VR doesn't have nearly the potential to be. I sit on my rear end to use it, while VR wants me to move my arms to do basic poo poo like reloading a gun in a videogame. This is why, of course, video games have completely supplanted all physical sports and activities  But really, I think the fact that VR hasn't taken off more is an indictment of the software being made for it, not the underlying hardware. When you're playing the right game or hanging out with the right people, you do not notice the hardware. The problem is that most of the games (and they're mostly games that have real use at this point) are built like ports of flat screen games, when there's so much more potential to build things as their own complete worlds. I think the future of VR is going to be in making things that remind you as little as possible that they're fake, and take themselves seriously in terms of being built as an internally consistent set of rules and interactions instead of trying to funnel you to a specific gameplay loop
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Mar 3, 2023 01:07
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Duck and Cover posted:PCs are a useful tools, VR doesn't have nearly the potential to be. I sit on my rear end to use it, while VR wants me to move my arms to do basic poo poo like reloading a gun in a videogame. The VR games that sell are the ones where you swing your arms around, while titles that users scoff at are lazy ports that don't allow for this. Not to mention, one of the most popular video game consoles of all time is the one that highlighted waggle controls. Idk, whenever I read this kind of poo poo I just imagine that dude from the WoW South Park episode saying it. Not that I'm not a fatass but gosh, it's not that hard to move your body. SCheeseman fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Mar 3, 2023 |
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Mar 3, 2023 01:18
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SCheeseman posted:Idk, whenever I read this kind of poo poo I just imagine that dude from the WoW South Park episode saying it. Not that I'm not a fatass but gosh, it's not that hard to move your body. Same. Its hard to take someone seriously when "standing and moving your arms" is "hard work" to play a game.
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Mar 3, 2023 01:33
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So the perfect game would be one where you are in a wheelchair while also having some kind of telekinesis power aka X-Men
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Mar 3, 2023 01:36
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Has anybody tried to DIY fix a headset, like specifically an Index using parts and instructions from ifixit? How doable is it, for somebody whose experience taking things apart and putting them back together is basically just dismantling NES/Genesis consoles and controllers and cleaning them, and replacing and upgrading PC components? I've looked at the instructions for taking an Index apart, it looks pretty straightforward until the part where you take off the eye tubes and there's a bunch of small parts and springs that look like they'll fly across the room and disappear forever. My left eye still has a dead pixel in a very noticeable spot (I only don't see it in dark scenes or when looking dead ahead), and I know I'm never getting "immersed" again as long as it's there. But I'm thinking fixing it myself might be a viable option if it's not too much of a pain in the rear end and there's little risk of me setting my Index on fire or whatever. It'd certainly be like 10x cheaper.
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Mar 3, 2023 01:41
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SCheeseman posted:The VR games that sell are the ones where you swing your arms around, while titles that users scoff at are lazy ports that don't allow for this. Not to mention, one of the most popular video game consoles of all time is the one that highlighted waggle controls. Idk, whenever I read this kind of poo poo I just imagine that dude from the WoW South Park episode saying it. Not that I'm not a fatass but gosh, it's not that hard to move your body. While it's true that the best VR games make the most of the unique attributes of the medium, that still carries consequences for their frequency of use. poo poo happens in life. I used to play active (Beat Saber, Thrill of the Fight, Until You Fall, etc.) VR games 4+ days a week and loved it, but I straight up can't do that anymore post-COVID. Even if injury isn't involved for most potential users, plenty of people come home wrung out and dog tired after work - which makes a physical hobby something reserved for special occasions rather than constant use. If VR takes over it'll be because the barrier to entry gets super low (good motion controls being more intuitive to human beings than flatscreen anything), but uh lmao no we're not there.
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Mar 3, 2023 01:42
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Duck and Cover posted:PCs are a useful tools, VR doesn't have nearly the potential to be. I sit on my rear end to use it, while VR wants me to move my arms to do basic poo poo like reloading a gun in a videogame. In the beginning they were just seen as tools. Now people can’t sit 30 minutes without picking one up because they fit in our pockets. A VR system that fits in your pocket will undoubtedly upend society the same way. And at that point it will also have AR and suddenly no one will go outside without a hud telling them to turn left to get to their mailbox up the street.
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Mar 3, 2023 01:43
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Nuts and Gum posted:In the beginning they were just seen as tools. Now people can’t sit 30 minutes without picking one up because they fit in our pockets. Not even joking when I say I can't wait until I can reach into my trench coat, whip out my VR eShades and put them on, then blast off into the cyberverse while Rage Against the Machine blasts into my ears. WAAKE UUUUUP!
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Mar 3, 2023 01:47
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tima posted:So the perfect game would be one where you are in a wheelchair while also having some kind of telekinesis power aka X-Men In VR chat today I saw two players with mice avatars (life size), talking to a buff spiderman in a wheelchair. You see the most random poo poo in that game.
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Mar 3, 2023 01:50
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Corbeau posted:While it's true that the best VR games make the most of the unique attributes of the medium, that still carries consequences for their frequency of use. poo poo happens in life. I used to play active (Beat Saber, Thrill of the Fight, Until You Fall, etc.) VR games 4+ days a week and loved it, but I straight up can't do that anymore post-COVID. Even if injury isn't involved for most potential users, plenty of people come home wrung out and dog tired after work - which makes a physical hobby something reserved for special occasions rather than constant use. If VR takes over it'll be because the barrier to entry gets super low (good motion controls being more intuitive to human beings than flatscreen anything), but uh lmao no we're not there. Those games are deliberately tuned to give a workout. Gun aiming and reloading isn't physically exhausting for most people and games that have a mix of mechanics tend to take it easy on players and allow for some rest time between climbing or swinging stuff around.
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Mar 3, 2023 01:50
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King Vidiot posted:Not even joking when I say I can't wait until I can reach into my trench coat, whip out my VR eShades and put them on, then blast off into the cyberverse while Rage Against the Machine blasts into my ears. Just as long as it’s not the Matrix Resurrection version! Now that I think about always on AR, we’re all just gonna have porno gifs floating around our peripheral interspersed with Simpson’s memes. I can’t wait either 
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Mar 3, 2023 02:00
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Without wanting to pile on the Bad Opinion Haver, a game that makes you move your arms vigorously to achieve something the game sees as a simple on/off state is not VR as a whole being bad, it's just an unadventurous implementation. However, I have sympathy for it. When it comes to making use of extremely accurate tracking data in realtime, the moment you start looking at doing more than just clamping a world object to your input and using it to interact with other objects, things get very complicated and out of reach of most solo/casual indie developers. As a result, progress on that front is going to be incremental. Expect a lot of games with One New Idea rather than one that just comes along and does everything right, and look out for that rather than complaining that nobody is immediately serving up 4D Last of Us's.
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Mar 3, 2023 02:03
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SCheeseman posted:The VR games that sell are the ones where you swing your arms around, while titles that users scoff at are lazy ports that don't allow for this. Not to mention, one of the most popular video game consoles of all time is the one that highlighted waggle controls. Idk, whenever I read this kind of poo poo I just imagine that dude from the WoW South Park episode saying it. Not that I'm not a fatass but gosh, it's not that hard to move your body. While I agree with you generally, invoking the Wii as proof motion controls work is a trap and it should never be forgotten that the Wii's original controllers were so bad at reading anything other than the vaguest of interpolated swings, they had to release an attachable addon to make them work as intended behind the scenes. The phenomenon of 'waggle' happened because the unfiltered data coming out of a Wiimote was jittery garbage, not because developers couldn't be bothered.
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Mar 3, 2023 02:05
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Corbeau posted:While it's true that the best VR games make the most of the unique attributes of the medium, that still carries consequences for their frequency of use. poo poo happens in life. I used to play active (Beat Saber, Thrill of the Fight, Until You Fall, etc.) VR games 4+ days a week and loved it, but I straight up can't do that anymore post-COVID. Even if injury isn't involved for most potential users, plenty of people come home wrung out and dog tired after work - which makes a physical hobby something reserved for special occasions rather than constant use. If VR takes over it'll be because the barrier to entry gets super low (good motion controls being more intuitive to human beings than flatscreen anything), but uh lmao no we're not there. Tetris Effect, Ven VR, Rez, and lots of other titles would be perfect for after work on a non physical level. So uh. Yeah.
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Mar 3, 2023 02:05
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Super Foul Egg posted:While I agree with you generally, invoking the Wii as proof motion controls work is a trap and it should never be forgotten that the Wii's original controllers were so bad at reading anything other than the vaguest of interpolated swings, they had to release an attachable addon to make them work as intended behind the scenes. The phenomenon of 'waggle' happened because the unfiltered data coming out of a Wiimote was jittery garbage, not because developers couldn't be bothered. The point wasn't that they were good controls but that people were fine with the idea of moving their body to control the video game conceptually, even if the execution in practice was lacking.
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Mar 3, 2023 02:17
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King Vidiot posted:Has anybody tried to DIY fix a headset, like specifically an Index using parts and instructions from ifixit? How doable is it, for somebody whose experience taking things apart and putting them back together is basically just dismantling NES/Genesis consoles and controllers and cleaning them, and replacing and upgrading PC components? For the Index, any screw T5 or smaller represents "do not proceed unless you know what you're doing". Pretty sure opening the optical path is past that point, but I always liked the concept of tying a screw size threshold to a clear "line" hardware-servicing wise.
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Mar 3, 2023 02:42
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SCheeseman posted:The point wasn't that they were good controls but that people were fine with the idea of moving their body to control the video game conceptually, even if the execution in practice was lacking. And mine was that the idea of moving for fun with a thin justification to spur it on is a separate draw to making use of the verisimilitude and precision that VR offers. Not lesser, just, separate. Beat Saber is undoubtedly a VR game, but the thing that makes it do numbers is a lineage that stretches back to the earliest Harmonix output. To hold it up as a clear example of VR's success leads you down a long road we've travelled before and at the end is a mountain of cheap plastic peripherals.
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Mar 3, 2023 02:43
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Super Foul Egg posted:And mine was that the idea of moving for fun with a thin justification to spur it on is a separate draw to making use of the verisimilitude and precision that VR offers. Not lesser, just, separate. Beat Saber is undoubtedly a VR game, but the thing that makes it do numbers is a lineage that stretches back to the earliest Harmonix output. To hold it up as a clear example of VR's success leads you down a long road we've travelled before and at the end is a mountain of cheap plastic peripherals. My response was addressing a claim that physical input is a barrier to broader adoption, not that the Wii was good implementation of it (it wasn't). I like VR mostly because of the additional input bandwidth and player agency that provides and am subsequently annoyed by games that squander that.
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Mar 3, 2023 02:50
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SCheeseman posted:My response was addressing a claim that physical input is a barrier to broader adoption, not that the Wii was good implementation of it (it wasn't). I like VR mostly because of the additional input bandwidth and player agency that provides and am subsequently annoyed by games that squander that. The specific claim was that OP didn't want to have to do a motion just to pull off something a videogame sees as a simple one press action. That's a valid take, if expressed inelegantly, and I'm saying Wii (and to a lesser extent Beat Saber) didn't need to be a good implementation of that, because it's kind of a separate genre entirely. I suspect we're all saying the exact same thing in different words at this point so let's just agree to agree and wait patiently for the cooking game that will inevitably end up being the Minecraft of VR.
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Mar 3, 2023 03:00
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Super Foul Egg posted:I suspect we're all saying the exact same thing in different words at this point so let's just agree to agree and wait patiently for the cooking game that will inevitably end up being the Minecraft of VR. Not until the Quest 12 implements smell-a-vision.
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Mar 3, 2023 03:03
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SCheeseman posted:Not until the Quest 12 implements smell-a-vision. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv9_AlimsiQ
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Mar 3, 2023 03:05
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The Eyes Have It posted:For the Index, any screw T5 or smaller represents "do not proceed unless you know what you're doing". Yeah, I should probably just suck it up and deal with it until I can afford a replacement headset down the line. Maybe we'll get a decent new Lighthouse-compatible HMD... eventually. e: Okay apparently I'm within the warranty window for my Index. And nobody said I have to tell them why I have a dead pixel... King Vidiot fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Mar 3, 2023 |
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Mar 3, 2023 03:06
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Lemming posted:This is why, of course, video games have completely supplanted all physical sports and activities Which is more popular watching sports or playing them? SCheeseman posted:The VR games that sell are the ones where you swing your arms around, while titles that users scoff at are lazy ports that don't allow for this. Not to mention, one of the most popular video game consoles of all time is the one that highlighted waggle controls. Idk, whenever I read this kind of poo poo I just imagine that dude from the WoW South Park episode saying it. Not that I'm not a fatass but gosh, it's not that hard to move your body. Yeah because that's what makes VR different however being different isn't enough for mass appeal. The Wii did sell well, but so did 3d glasses (at least 3d seemed to be everywhere at one point) , they're both gimmicks that didn't last because they didn't actually improve the experience. SCheeseman posted:Those games are deliberately tuned to give a workout. Gun aiming and reloading isn't physically exhausting for most people and games that have a mix of mechanics tend to take it easy on players and allow for some rest time between climbing or swinging stuff around. No not exhausting, tedious and unfun. At least as far as gun reloading. Some people like that kind of thing though, but the thing is simulator games don't really have mass appeal. Nuts and Gum posted:In the beginning they were just seen as tools. Now people can’t sit 30 minutes without picking one up because they fit in our pockets. Computers being tools that could justify their price tag is why computers took off at least at the start. VR is an expensive toy. Which is fine, just makes it a smidge different than computers. HAHAHAHAHHAHA Ahhhhahahahahahahahhahaha HAHAHAHAhahahahahhahaa.
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Mar 3, 2023 03:06
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SCheeseman posted:Not until the Quest 12 implements smell-a-vision. Existed briefly by 2019-2020, then got killed by the US's vaping laws
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Mar 3, 2023 03:08
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Duck and Cover posted:No not exhausting, tedious and unfun. At least as far as gun reloading. Some people like that kind of thing though, but the thing is simulator games don't really have mass appeal. Everything is tedious until you've practiced enough to get good at it at. Pavlov remains the eminent VR multiplayer shooter and has physical reloading, within the VR bubble it's a feature people want.
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Mar 3, 2023 03:11
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Duck and Cover posted:Yeah because that's what makes VR different however being different isn't enough for mass appeal. The Wii did sell well, but so did 3d glasses (at least 3d seemed to be everywhere at one point) , they're both gimmicks that didn't last because they didn't actually improve the experience. The Wii had a long lifespan, iterated into PlayStation Move and Microsoft Kinect technologies, and eventually evolved into the Vive Wand and roomscale VR interaction in general. Your argument is incredibly wrong. The biggest Wii game was also Wii Sports by a wide margin, specifically because a lot of people who typically don't play videogames specifically wanted it for waggling interactive fun. Duck and Cover posted:Computers being tools that could justify their price tag is why computers took off at least at the start. VR is an expensive toy. Which is fine, just makes it a smidge different than computers. PCVR is expensive, a Quest 2 is a relatively inexpensive consumer VR device with a low bar of entry. The lack of an influx of innovative games is the problem, not the hardware.
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Mar 3, 2023 03:17
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Nevermind VR is amazing and will revolutionize the world. SCheeseman posted:Everything is tedious until you've practiced enough to get good at it at. Pavlov remains the eminent VR multiplayer shooter and has physical reloading, within the VR bubble it's a feature people want. It's not about what the VR niche people want it's about what has mass appeal. Well if that's what you want VR to be. Which is absolutely doesn't have to be. Although I'm not sure VR market can survive without Facebook burning piles of money. So yeah might be a good idea to broaden the appeal.
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Mar 3, 2023 03:18
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Duck and Cover posted:Which is more popular watching sports or playing them? In the case of VR, looking at what have empirically been the most successful games, yes more people want to move around than to sit in place. The reality is that if you don't want to move much, VR isn't a great medium. It comes with a lot of overhead in terms of needing to interact with it, and for the most part if your experience is something that could basically be translated easily to a flatscreen, then it's probably a better fit for a traditional gaming format.
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Mar 3, 2023 03:21
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