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Kurieg posted:isn't that the exact opposite of reincarnation? Human -> Vampire (and thus outside the wheel) -> demon god-king of the underworld (and thus back in the wheel) Nessus posted:Depends how literal you wanna get, appearing as a wraith could qualify as a form of rebirth Basically this.
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Mar 3, 2023 15:51
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I was joking about the fact that Reincarnation literally means "restored to the flesh".
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Mar 3, 2023 16:04
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If he came back as the demon-king of the underworld, I guess that's more of a Reintarnation.
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Mar 3, 2023 17:55
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What is the current state of V5, anyway? Do they have an ongoing metaplot like the old editions did or have they given up on that? From what I played in Night Road (which I just learned has DLC!  ), they seem to be trying to do the Vampire the Requiem thing where cities tend to have princes that are more killable/defeatalbe (like a LaCroix) than the old standard of elder, which was some fifth-sixth generation vampire demigod.
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Mar 3, 2023 18:02
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Whirling posted:What is the current state of V5, anyway? Do they have an ongoing metaplot like the old editions did or have they given up on that? From what I played in Night Road (which I just learned has DLC! The metaplot as it stands (to my understanding) is that most of the elders have hosed off because of the "Beckoning" either to the middle east to fight the "Gehenna War" or for other mysterious reasons. With the high powered muckity-mucks out, the power vacuum was filled by higher generation vamps, breaking the elder stranglehold on everything. Also the US government and many other world governments are aware of the Kindred and are actively hunting them down (Operation First light is the US Government's thing I think). And as has been said, Gehenna has been more of an on going "Shits breaking down in New and Interesting Ways!" than a full on Apocalypse as it was pitched in TOJ.
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Mar 3, 2023 19:05
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The Beckoning and the Second Inquisition are basically two dials you can turn to explain in-game why the influence of elder vampires is waning and there are more opportunities for neonates to push back. In my head canon, the Beckoning is a factor, but it’s also an excuse used to explain elder disappearance. It’s easier for prideful Kindred to say “our leaders hosed off to distant lands” than to admit “our leaders are getting their asses kicked by a bunch of “mere mortals.”
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Mar 3, 2023 19:19
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Gatto Grigio posted:In my head canon, the Beckoning is a factor, but it’s also an excuse used to explain elder disappearance. It’s easier for prideful Kindred to say “our leaders hosed off to distant lands” than to admit “our leaders are getting their asses kicked by a bunch of “mere mortals.” This. It's also not even the Middle East anymore, it's just wherever. A bunch have been beckoned to South America or Africa, it's just plot device to delete old immovable farts. The stupid thing is that there's a huge subset of the community that is REALLY MAD about this and HATES the Beckoning for making the overall setting actually interesting to play in, which is just mostly proof that the vast majority of VtM fans have really lovely taste and don't actually know what makes for a good RPG setting.
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Mar 3, 2023 20:50
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Fuzz posted:This. It's also not even the Middle East anymore, it's just wherever. A bunch have been beckoned to South America or Africa, it's just plot device to delete old immovable farts. The stupid thing is that there's a huge subset of the community that is REALLY MAD about this and HATES the Beckoning for making the overall setting actually interesting to play in, which is just mostly proof that the vast majority of VtM fans have really lovely taste and don't actually know what makes for a good RPG setting. Okay I went with the Middle East in my description because that was what I remembered from the early bits about the Beckoning, but personally I've taken it to be "A Thing that's happening" and more about Elders are being called "Home" wherever that may be for them in particular than "All the old fogies are loving off to the ME". And WoD fans being mad about stuff that makes the setting more interesting? Why I'm shocked by this revelation, SHOCKED I SAY! I'm absolutely unsurprised
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Mar 3, 2023 21:08
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joylessdivision posted:The metaplot as it stands (to my understanding) is that most of the elders have hosed off because of the "Beckoning" either to the middle east to fight the "Gehenna War" or for other mysterious reasons. Except when the elders just don't go. Helena and Critias are still hanging Chicago, f'r example. So if you want elders, you have elders.
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Mar 3, 2023 21:21
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Kurieg posted:I was joking about the fact that Reincarnation literally means "restored to the flesh". Ah, fair. Sorry. Also, i think that bit's from Chaining the Beast which means it could be (and probably is) just bullshit the followers of the path tell one another.
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Mar 3, 2023 22:01
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i think it's reasonable to hate the beckoning because it just makes everywhere that isn't the US an ambiguous Over There where stuff can be Happening but doesn't, like, matter. if all the elders are going to a big ol vampire throwdown in iraq or brazil or wherever it is today, shouldn't that be a notable thing? shouldn't the masquerade be fraying more actively? what are players who want to play IN those areas, or who are from those areas, going to do? do they invert the beckoning so that all the middle eastern elders take flights to savannah georgia for the end of days
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Mar 3, 2023 23:17
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Mister Olympus posted:i think it's reasonable to hate the beckoning because it just makes everywhere that isn't the US an ambiguous Over There where stuff can be Happening but doesn't, like, matter. if all the elders are going to a big ol vampire throwdown in iraq or brazil or wherever it is today, shouldn't that be a notable thing? shouldn't the masquerade be fraying more actively? I mean...yeah? It's a rpg, you can do what you want with the setting and toss out the plot bits that don't work or adjust them so they do.  San Francisco and the Bay Area haven't been written up in V5 (that I'm aware of) but it's not like that's stopped me from absolutely mixing the gently caress out of the bits of past lore that was available about it to fit the story I'm telling at my table.I don't mean this to be directed at you specifically, but I'm deeply confused by this idea that something in the books is holy scripture that must be adhered to and thus if it conflicts with something else, it is a problem. It's not. A bad mechanic or bit of lore/metaplot can be adjusted to taste at the table and if a player pulls the "Well acshully" you politely remind them who the ST is, although in theory that would be a thing you already talked to all the players about prior to game time.
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Mar 3, 2023 23:33
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joylessdivision posted:I mean...yeah? It's a rpg, you can do what you want with the setting and toss out the plot bits that don't work or adjust them so they do. This is a poo poo argument, and I say that with love, but we all know about rule zero. We all use it. But arguing about metaplot is basically the real game in World of Darkness. I've decided that in Santa Sangre 2.0, the old Daeva Primogen was murdered by her own ghost thanks to the responses in this thread. So it's going to be fun to work that mystery backwards so my players can find clues.
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Mar 4, 2023 00:23
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I like to think that the Beckoning is happening on Mount Everest, and it is the fuel that feeds that Everest thread in GBS. All those random people deciding they gotta go up there? Vampires.
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Mar 4, 2023 01:01
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How much of Bloodlines' LA/Santa Monica has made it into V5?
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Mar 4, 2023 01:22
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Dawgstar posted:How much of Bloodlines' LA/Santa Monica has made it into V5? Pretty sure it's canon as much as that is possible.
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Mar 4, 2023 01:45
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Soonmot posted:This is a poo poo argument, and I say that with love, but we all know about rule zero. We all use it. But arguing about metaplot is basically the real game in World of Darkness. Fair. Especially considering the plot of Mage 1e is why I think it's a stupid game. Well that the spheres are annoying. Dawgstar posted:How much of Bloodlines' LA/Santa Monica has made it into V5? The Voerman sisters appeared on LA by Night and I'm pretty sure that show is considered cannon so probably most of, minus the Keui-Jin because I'm pretty sure they quietly brushed that entire thing under a rug, and then set it on fire. joylessdivision fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Mar 4, 2023 |
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Mar 4, 2023 01:56
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joylessdivision posted:The Voerman sisters appeared on LA by Night and I'm pretty sure that show is considered cannon so probably most of, minus the Keui-Jin because I'm pretty sure they quietly brushed that entire thing under a rug, and then set it on fire. Somebody on RPG.net of Asian descent is working on rehabbing the Keui-Jin and it's amazing in some respects how little you need to do. What are they called? The Hungry Dead. What are they called in specific countries? Whatever the words in that language for 'Hungry Dead' are. Are they just in Asia? No, supernatural critters are like a spectrum and they're just more entrenched in that part of the world. Etc. My favorite is the Great Leap Outward is just a weird urban legend because if there was such a thing they'd probably go after somewhere like London.
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Mar 4, 2023 02:37
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Yeah, Holden was doing one too, and it had a very large sidebar on the topic of "look, when you scrub off all the grime, you realize this is just Vampire: the Masquerade with weird, misremembered Asian folklore bits instead of weird Western folklore bits".
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Mar 4, 2023 02:40
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I honestly have no idea why they weren't just the same as Cainite vampires (in terms of powers and blood generations and what not) to start with, honestly. To my knowledge, Africa, Europe, North America, South America, and the Indian Subcontinent all have the usual Cainites, but Eastern Asia has special vampires for some reason? Well, I mean, part of the reason is racism but poo poo, they could've just saved themselves the effort instead of trying to make another splat.
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Mar 4, 2023 03:19
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Whirling posted:I honestly have no idea why they weren't just the same as Cainite vampires (in terms of powers and blood generations and what not) to start with, honestly. To my knowledge, Africa, Europe, North America, South America, and the Indian Subcontinent all have the usual Cainites, but Eastern Asia has special vampires for some reason? Well, I mean, part of the reason is racism but poo poo, they could've just saved themselves the effort instead of trying to make another splat. Like you say, it's basically Orientalism without much thought to why. Just 'Asian = cool.'
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Mar 4, 2023 03:50
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yeah if you're gonna do regional vampires then go all in. I want to play a goddamn vampire pumpkin!
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Mar 4, 2023 05:29
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Whirling posted:I honestly have no idea why they weren't just the same as Cainite vampires (in terms of powers and blood generations and what not) to start with, honestly. To my knowledge, Africa, Europe, North America, South America, and the Indian Subcontinent all have the usual Cainites, but Eastern Asia has special vampires for some reason? Well, I mean, part of the reason is racism but poo poo, they could've just saved themselves the effort instead of trying to make another splat. oh boy no, the African vampires also had two different souls
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Mar 4, 2023 06:09
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Soonmot posted:oh boy no, the African vampires also had two different souls I thought it was vaguely interesting how Wraith did that - but I also remembered it only really coming up in The Great War.
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Mar 4, 2023 06:17
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I think having regional vampires is cool and good but the problem is that it really clashes with oWoDs eurocentric metaplot. Which would be a cool plot point in and of itself if handled right, but alas
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Mar 4, 2023 06:18
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Wasn't the african vampire supplement the one with the morality system that is basically "Act like the most stereotypical heart of darkness african native you can"?
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Mar 4, 2023 07:42
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joylessdivision posted:Fair. Especially considering the plot of Mage 1e is why I think it's a stupid game. Well that the spheres are annoying. Not just the Voerman sisters, but also Maximilian Strauss, Gary Golden, Nines Rodriguez, Velvet Velours and Isaac Abrahams (with the last one buggering off for The Beckoning, mostly so that Nelli G can take over Hollywood as the baron). There's also a loresheet for Jeanette and Therese in the core book, with the fifth dot allowing you to open up and run an Asylum location in your town, tying into the status of the sisters in LA By Night, where Asylum had become a nightclub franchise. Skios fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Mar 4, 2023 |
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Mar 4, 2023 11:31
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I’m a relapsed OWoD fan who’s not too familiar with VtM and also kinda hated it before I read V5. The changes to the lore make it a game that seems like it would be actually fun to play or ST now. What’s a good book to pick up next after the core book? I’d like to plan for a chronicle but want a little more reading to help with the world building process. Ah who am I kidding I just love reading WoD stuff. What’s a good book to read next? I was torn between Camarilla or Chicago by Night. I need some more story hooks, actual examples, and tips on how to set up a city in V5.
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Mar 4, 2023 13:03
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Drinking With Nixon posted:tips on how to set up a city in V5. How I personally went about it was to look at the city's history, culture and power structures, and see how I can integrate Kindred into that without turning the Kindred into the actual motivation for whatever is going on in the city. Basically treat Kindred culture as parasitical to the mortal culture of the city, rather than the motivating force behind it. As for my game... The Beckoning and the SI do play a role, although it's very much unclear how much. The current state of the board is very much dictated by the sudden disappearance of a number of power players, but it hasn't been made clear yet whether it was the Beckoning, the Second Inquisition, internal politics getting violent, or a combination of all three. The chronicle is set in my hometown, in the current day. A city that dates back to at least the earliest medieval period. In 1574 it got a university, and since then both mortal and Kindred life has been pretty much organised around it. The city's equivalent to the Primogen Council refers to itself as 'the faculty', with each Primogen/clan also claiming a certain part of the academic life within the city: * Toreador: The archaeology department, and the various museums. * Malkavians: The social sciences, also took over the philosophy department after the Brujah defected. * Nosferatu: Started out controlling the university library, also took on the IT network and adjacent fields. * Tremere: The natural sciences and university hospital. Also currently locked in a struggle with the Toreador over who gets to run the Natural History museum now that the Gangrel hosed off. * Ventrue: The law faculty. * Lasombra: Relative newcomers, set up shop in the Theology department, angling for the philosophy department as well. In the five years leading up to the starting point of the Chronicle, a number of the city's Camarilla power players, including the prince, had been taken off of the board, leading to quite a bit of shake up. * Philipp Franz von Siebold, former Toreador Primogen, is now nominally the prince, by dint of A) being one of the oldest Kindred still standing, and B) being the least objectionable option. This has considerably weakened the clan, as there has yet to be a replacement Primogen put forward to sit on the faculty council. Depending on who you ask it's either the Toreador too busy sniping at each other to put forward a unified voice, or because Von Siebold is sabotaging his own clan to preserve his personal power as the prince. * Rebecca Albrecht took over as Ventrue primogen after the previous one mysteriously disappeared. Her relative youth, and the ease with which she took over the position of Primogen has made her the prime suspect in the previous Primogen's disappearance. So far she has proven far too good at the job for anyone to openly make a move against her, though. * Nickel Mickey, the Nosferatu Primogen has also disappeared, although the Nosferatu keep insisting that he's just hiding after some Kindred from his past started hunting for him specifically. His own Childe now sits on the council and is grudgingly accepted, because he claims to speak on his Sire's behalf, and his Sire will totally be back any day now. Of course the Nosferatu have been very effective at making themselves indispensable, so the other Primogens are pretty much looking the other way. The Nosferatu are also suspected of maintaining tunnels or other routes that the city's Anarchs are using to encroach on Camarilla territory. There's also some rumours going around about a Nictuku being active in the city, although those rumours seem to be getting spread by the Nosferatu themselves in order to justify the firepower they're hoarding. * The Tremere are viewed with suspicion just for being Tremere. * The Malkavians seem to have withdrawn to a specific area just outside of the city, which is a town that was basically built around a nineteenth century psychiatric hospital. It's still one of the largest mental health clinics in the country. Other than the Primogen, Malkavian kindred have been gradually disappearing from the prince's court, although that seems to be by choice on their part, rather than force. * The Lasombra, being the new kids on the block, seem to be trying very hard to keep a low profile for now, not angling for a position on the faculty or even putting forward any candidates for other court officials. Of course that also leads to them being viewed with suspicion by the other Kindred. The Camarilla has responded to the internal unrest within their power structure by basically locking down hard. They claim all of the territory within the old medieval city walls as their territory, with any Anarch caught within the walls being fair game to being dusted on sight. The Anarchs meanwhile have been able to thrive thanks to the Camarilla mostly withdrawing from the periphery of the city, but this has resulted in several different factions/baronies popping up, none of whom are currently strong enough to unify the city's anarchs behind them. The city also has a small but very active Ashirra contingent in certain neighbourhoods. While nominally allied with the Camarilla, the faculty council refused them to give them the place at the table that they felt they were due. In response, they decided to distance themselves from Camarilla politics, in stead focusing on building a place for themselves within the city and fostering their mortal herd. In terms of socialising, a lot of Kindred culture in my chronicle draws from university culture. Traditionally, the Ventrue treated the city as a recruiting ground, as until the end of World War 2, university attendance was basically the purview of the rich and powerful. And those few that weren't from the upper classes that still made it to the unversity were of course the most talented and/or ambitious, which made them prime candidates for the embrace. Post World War 2, with the expansion of the social safety net, and the introduction of government student grant programs, university attendance became much more widespread, with the kind of mortals that are far less appealing to the Ventrue far outnumbering the prime stock. As such, the Ventrue lost interest in the city, allowing other Camarilla clans to build up their power base. The expansion of the city outside of the medieval city walls, and especially with massive student housing blocks, has also created a fertile ground for anarchs to take root. Both the Camarilla and the Anarchs, being the most closely tied to university life, mimic mortal university culture. The Camarilla ape the old student societies, with Byzantine rituals, songs, banners, etcetera. The Anarchs meanwhile are more like the 'modern' student clubs - there's wide-eyed idealists, cultural clubs, and of course those who are just in it to drink and have a good time. Within the larger context of the Camarilla in Western Europe, the city is seen as largely irrelevant, clinging to a prestige based on its history even as most of the focus for the Camarilla is now on the financial, economic and political power centres. As such, the faculty is largely left to its own devices.
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Mar 4, 2023 13:46
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Drinking With Nixon posted:I need some more story hooks, actual examples, and tips on how to set up a city in V5. It's not V5 specific but you want the Requiem book Damnation City.
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Mar 4, 2023 14:17
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Nessus posted:The vampires too? The vampires had two Humanity tracks, with "Aye" being the typical "morality" track and "Orun" being based on solidarity with supernatural beings, "cultural traditions," and the "will of the gods, spirits, or ancestors." In fairness, they were otherwise mostly standard Cainites with bloodlines that were slight variations on the existing clans, although they had a special version of Auspex because "spirits."
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Mar 4, 2023 15:42
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I Am Just a Box posted:In fairness, they were otherwise mostly standard Cainites with bloodlines that were slight variations on the existing clans, although they had a special version of Auspex because "spirits." I admittedly don't recall much about the African Kindred other than people think the Sheriff from Bloodlines was a Nagloper, a weird Tzimisce offshoot from the book (which does admittedly make sense given LaCroix's time in Africa and the Sheriff having at least Vicissitude 6).
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Mar 4, 2023 15:57
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Everyone in the WoD has two souls though, as revealed in Wraith.
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Mar 4, 2023 17:10
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Drinking With Nixon posted:tips on how to set up a city in V5. Adding to what's been said, along with the story-motivated areas, think of how they will work mechanically. V5 is very much driven by the Hunger mechanic, with predator types dictating where the PCs will want to try feeding. Botched feedings might raise the area's difficulty with police/hunter involvement, forcing kindred into other domains and causing conflict. The best hunting territories are probably already taken. If you are running an Anarch chronicle, you could put most of the prime hunting territory in Camarilla control, giving the coterie a target. That will be eased a bit once a coterie takes domain and stocks on up Chasse to lower their feeding difficulty at 'home base', but now they have to defend it. Here's some city setup examples from big public discord games, which makes it easy to visualize the city. Prague, with the city organized by sect control:  A Vegas setting, organized geographically, and uses colored dots to indicate sect control: 
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Mar 4, 2023 21:03
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Skios posted:How I personally went about it was to look at the city's history, culture and power structures, and see how I can integrate Kindred into that without turning the Kindred into the actual motivation for whatever is going on in the city. Basically treat Kindred culture as parasitical to the mortal culture of the city, rather than the motivating force behind it. I really appreciate the detailed answer, really kind of you to put that much effort into the post. Pretty clear that you have a passion for your setting, I totally want that feeling! So to summarize your amazing post; *define the vibe or industry of your city *portray how vampire society mimics or takes advantage of the environment *Since V5 actually likes player agency, think you what power vacuums need to be filled or have recently been filled *Give each clan a role in the city *One major NPC per faction, keeping in mind the Beckoning *Chose which faction controls the core of the city and which operates in the periphery I think it's telling that no one suggested actually buying a V5 book, so I’m guessing the quality is not up to snuff? I only have a passing idea of what a Lasombra is and I had no idea they were incorporated into mainstream Vampire society outside of Chicago so that's all good to know. Thanks to everyone else for the other pointers, Damnation City looks amazing but I’m terrified it will just make me want to go back to NWoD. Separating the city into how easy it is to hunt is also a great idea. I didn’t think to make it easier or harder based on predator type, but makes complete sense.
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Mar 5, 2023 11:36
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Dawgstar posted:How much of Bloodlines' LA/Santa Monica has made it into V5? V5 is the first time Bloodlines has been able to be referenced and used directly due to rights issues with those characters. The core book has a lot of references to Bloodlines. The entirety of LA by Night is based on Bloodlines with some 'oh yeah, here's some stuff from the old LA by Night book that no one cares about' in it. It's largely canon, but there's no 'specific' ending from Bloodlines references, and its plot happened in broad strokes if not in every exact detail.
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Mar 5, 2023 13:39
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MonsieurChoc posted:Everyone in the WoD has two souls though, as revealed in Wraith. "Inside you are two souls. Both of them suck and are awful. gently caress you."
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Mar 5, 2023 14:50
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Drinking With Nixon posted:I think it's telling that no one suggested actually buying a V5 book, so I’m guessing the quality is not up to snuff? I only have a passing idea of what a Lasombra is and I had no idea they were incorporated into mainstream Vampire society outside of Chicago so that's all good to know. V5 annoyingly split the clan writeups across several different books and won't correct that until the Players Guide releases later this year, which also won't be free. As for material, in your V5 core book, hopefully it says 'second printing' at the bottom of the credits page, which means you have some errata built in. If not, pickup an updated pdf, or the 2.0 errata from Sept 2019. Then get the free Companion, which has other important errata like the blood surge and bane severity change, and the 'taking half' rule. The best V5 material is probably Chicago and Cult of the Blood Gods. Clans are spread across Anarch (Ministry/OWoD Settites), Camarilla (Banu/OWoD Assamites), Cults (Hecata/blend of OWoD Cappadocians, Giovanni, and a few more) and the free Companion (Fiends, Salubri, Ravnos). That's not even getting into homebrew and third-party. The game has been out a while now, and people have added every clan and bloodline you can think of, and a lot of disciplines, with varying levels of quality. I'm in a game with playable Baali, gargoyles, and daughters of cacophony, with disciplines for each. Other resources - If you want to understand the mechanics read this. A nice, visual character creation thing is here. Here's a V5 clan list and their disciplines, which has changed for some from owod: 
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Mar 5, 2023 14:56
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Drinking With Nixon posted:I really appreciate the detailed answer, really kind of you to put that much effort into the post. Pretty clear that you have a passion for your setting, I totally want that feeling! So to summarize your amazing post; if you filter by my posts, I posted the stuff I wrote for the neighborhoods in game I just starts. It' requiem, not Masq, but it can still give an idea of how to weave in story hooks even if it's stuff you never get to.
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Mar 5, 2023 15:56
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ritorix posted:V5 annoyingly split the clan writeups across several different books and won't correct that until the Players Guide releases later this year, which also won't be free. As an aside to this, most of the good homebrew keeps it at 11 disciplines and works within that framework since it's a core design principle of V5. Daughters of Cacophony, mentioned here, also have an official Loresheet on the WoD site that's free if you have an account. Get it the same way you get the Companion, it's called Stories of the Daughters because in V5 they're not a Bloodline specific to just one clan, they're just an eccentric type of vampire that happens to express certain traits in their song.
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Mar 5, 2023 16:07
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