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He was Good, not good, in the sense that he (presumably) advanced the cause of the Upper planes against the forces of Evil, but wasn't that concerned with his son's soccer match. Just because he's a bitter jerk doesn't mean he didn't do a decent amount of Good in his life. If anything, I'm questioning why he's lawful when his whole schtick is getting annoyed when people try to hold him to obligations, familial or otherwise.
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Mar 6, 2023 14:22
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I think if he suffers consequences it'll be for things he did after he died. Can they punish him for that? Would roy be happy about that?
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Mar 6, 2023 15:25
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habeasdorkus posted:Isn't the only reason Eugene's not in Lawful Good heaven is because of his blood oath? Guy is by all appearances a not great parent, but he's not actually evil. if roy almost got kicked down to neutral heaven for almost getting his party killed back in the day, there's no way that eugene was actually going to be able to get into Lawful good heaven. i'm betting the joke with eugene is that when he finally does get his interview it was that the waiting was always pointless because he was never going to be able to get in.
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Mar 6, 2023 15:31
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habeasdorkus posted:Isn't the only reason Eugene's not in Lawful Good heaven is because of his blood oath? Guy is by all appearances a not great parent, but he's not actually evil. That's the only reason he's not in a real afterlife, but I'm not sure that they've firmly decided which afterlife he's heading to yet. Judging from the evaluation Roy got, I suspect Eugene isn't ever actually making it to Lawful Good Land. The deva laid out several criteria for Roy:
Items 2 and 3 aren't so great for Eugene, because his defining trait in life was apparently to neglect or abandon anything that was annoying or stopped holding his interest. He abandoned his Blood Oath, he neglected his family...it doesn't really seem like "responsibility" ranks high on his list of priorities, to the point where he's already facing divine punishment for intentionally neglecting the oath he swore. That's not very Lawful! As for "Good"? Even if his "hey, the destruction of the entire world sounds great for me personally" idea came only after death, it doesn't exactly suggest that he's the kind of guy to prioritize moral or ethical concerns over his own personal convenience. Eugene didn't spend his life battling the forces of Evil, either, and even his hatred of Xykon came from a personal grudge.
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Mar 6, 2023 16:30
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Do we know the alignments of everyone that voted yes at the godsmoot? Because it seems pretty lovely to dock Eugene points for wanting the world to be destroyed if it's something he has in common with literal Good gods. That's not to say it won't happen, of course. The gods not holding themselves to their own standards would be extremely in character.
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Mar 6, 2023 16:53
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Cattail Prophet posted:Do we know the alignments of everyone that voted yes at the godsmoot? Because it seems pretty lovely to dock Eugene points for wanting the world to be destroyed if it's something he has in common with literal Good gods. Motivation is key there. Ending the world so that the gods themselves can be protected and create new worlds is an arguably good thing, at least in a "greater good" kind of sense. Ending the world so that you personally are freed from an obligation within it is not.
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Mar 6, 2023 17:01
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Eugene seems to have always looked to the Law with at least a little "what can it do for ME though?"
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Mar 6, 2023 17:05
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I'm not sure if post-mortem actions or feelings count for heaven's judgement, but any desire he may have had for the gods to destroy the world would probably be cancelled out by the fact that he is the reason why Roy is out there trying to save the gates in the first place. We don't really know much about his life, but arguing with and having a troubled relationship with his son doesn't really sound very evil by itself. It sounds like he just repeated his relationship with his own dad. I feel like goons are disproportionately in favor of severing their parents, but that's not really a relevant concept because Euene is dead. Roy doesn't actually have control over having contact with Eugene, and if he finally defeats Xykon that'll be it. You don't sever the dead unless you're trying to break down a body to make it easier to hide. You make peace with the dead.
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Mar 6, 2023 17:25
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Also remember we only ever got glimpses, and many of which are from potentially unreliable narrators. He lived a much longer life than Roy has to date and we don't know what kinds of adventures he went on or what he did during them. e: Maybe I'm misremembering one of the books but didn't he actually get to an interview with a Deva? Who was like "Yup everything looks good, but what's this about a blood oath?" e2: Yup Start of Darkness towards the end, Eugene has his interview with a Deva and they're basically "Yeah only a few minor bad marks here like editing your own wikipedia article" with the implication that the only reason Eugene can't get into the Celestial realm is because of the Blood Oath. "We can't let you into the Celestial Realm without your certification" (paraphrasing) is basically what they say. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Mar 6, 2023 |
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Mar 6, 2023 17:38
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Yeah, its also worth remembering we're only seeing parts of Eugene. Roy's mom had a pretty good conversation with him when he died about it, but Eugene does genuinely seem to have fully dedicated his life to various causes for years at a time before losing interest and moving on to a new one. This obviously led to him treating his family pretty terribly once he moved past his 'I want to be a good husband and father' stage, but based on the things we know he did try to accomplish in his life it seems likely he spent his life doing good (or trying to) in one form or another.
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Mar 6, 2023 18:20
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Yeah, he probably spent all that time away from his family protecting people from evildoers. A lot of great people were terrible parents.
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Mar 6, 2023 18:46
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Yeah, Eugene was a high level adventurer. He was absolutely off saving kingdoms and foiling warlocks while neglecting his kids.
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Mar 6, 2023 19:00
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I recall it was stated that things Eugene did after his death don’t count. He already got his placement even if it’s delayed.
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Mar 6, 2023 20:09
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There was an interesting bit in the Start of Darkness where Eugene passes up an opportunity to go fight Xykon and fulfill his blood oath because he has a family who needs him to support, and he needs to be there for them instead of dying for his own personal vendetta. And then it turns out that he missed Roy's soccer game for that meeting. So he ended up doing a thing that would make him a bad dead dad in his attempts to be a good alive dad. He really did care for being a father, he just couldn't really express it in like an interpersonal way. And now he's stuck having conversations with his formerly estranged son.
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Mar 6, 2023 20:37
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ikanreed posted:I think if he suffers consequences it'll be for things he did after he died. Can they punish him for that? Would roy be happy about that? A system that has so much existing as a spirit and resurrection surely has to account for post-death morality. SlothfulCobra posted:I feel like goons are disproportionately in favor of severing their parents, but that's not really a relevant concept because Euene is dead. Roy doesn't actually have control over having contact with Eugene, and if he finally defeats Xykon that'll be it. You don't sever the dead unless you're trying to break down a body to make it easier to hide. You make peace with the dead. Him being dead is a very different thing in a world where death demonstrably does not stop you actively being in someone's life.
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Mar 6, 2023 22:22
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Capfalcon posted:If anything, I'm questioning why he's lawful when his whole schtick is getting annoyed when people try to hold him to obligations, familial or otherwise. Eugene's issue, as explained by his late wife, is that he can maintain absolute, unwavering dedication to a single task, but only so long as he thinks it's important. He is visibly a clear believer in ordered systems, such as justice, but only his own order. He was the best husband in the world, but once he picked up a new obsession, he was effectively out of his family's life. Worse, he didn't understand why they didn't prioritize things the same way he did. That's inconsiderate, but it's still an ordered system.
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Mar 6, 2023 22:59
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Taciturn Tactician posted:A system that has so much existing as a spirit and resurrection surely has to account for post-death morality. Even accounting for multiple entire Pantheons of omnipotent rules lawyers super concerned about where souls go?
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Mar 6, 2023 23:22
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Most souls don't get much of a chance to do anything outside of their assigned outer plane. Eugene's a very special case.
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Mar 6, 2023 23:26
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habeasdorkus posted:Isn't the only reason Eugene's not in Lawful Good heaven is because of his blood oath? Guy is by all appearances a not great parent, but he's not actually evil. He was an adventurer and probably killed loads of evil things, saving lots of people. But so does a CN adventurer. Slaying evil things is good, but it isn't enough on it's own to get you into the LG afterlife. Roy was nearly bumped down to the NG afterlife. Is Eugene more LG than Roy? Facebook Aunt fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Mar 6, 2023 |
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Mar 6, 2023 23:42
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Facebook Aunt posted:He was an adventurer and probably killed loads of evil things, saving lots of people. But so does a CN adventurer. Slaying evil things is good, but it isn't enough on it's own to get you into the LG afterlife. At this point, the old man's probably had plenty of time to just bug off and enter a different afterlife, so if anything, it's his dogged insistence on getting into the LG afterlife, with all the bureaucratic functions it entails, that makes him Lawful Good.
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Mar 6, 2023 23:56
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skeleton warrior posted:There’s also “Roy clearly wins despite his father, and his father briefly seems proud but then lapses into criticism again” which feels like how Rich might have wrapped it up if this strip ended at #150, but I think we’re way too invested for “ha, that Eugene, he’ll never change” to feel right. SlothfulCobra posted:I feel like goons are disproportionately in favor of severing their parents, but that's not really a relevant concept because Eugene is dead. Roy doesn't actually have control over having contact with Eugene, and if he finally defeats Xykon that'll be it. You don't sever the dead unless you're trying to break down a body to make it easier to hide. You make peace with the dead. Yeah, I honestly don't think Eugene's ending needs to be anything in particular. The important arc wrt to Eugene is Roy's arc, and he's already made his peace with his father being terrible and then dying (and continuing to be kinda terrible.) And now Eugene's dead, and not allowed to visit the family even if he DOES get into the afterlife eventually. He doesn't matter anymore. If he briefly seems proud but then lapses into criticism again, then who cares, Roy doesn't want to talk to him anyway.
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Mar 6, 2023 23:57
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I'm actually not sure if Eugene cares about the LG afterlife specifically, maybe a strip in the mainline comic implies or says it, but in Start of Darkness he seemed to only really care about being in the Good afterlives, and the Blood Oath I think was stopping him from getting into any of them. Only the Celestial Afterlife was specified, which could be any of them.
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Mar 7, 2023 00:01
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No, the celestial afterlife is specifically the lawful good one, Mt. Celestia. The other good afterlives would be elysian, bytopic or... I wanna say arboreal?
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Mar 7, 2023 00:07
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:No, the celestial afterlife is specifically the lawful good one, Mt. Celestia. The other good afterlives would be elysian, bytopic or... I wanna say arboreal? Those plus uh, beastlandic??
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Mar 7, 2023 00:35
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Taciturn Tactician posted:A system that has so much existing as a spirit and resurrection surely has to account for post-death morality. Yeah, he also mugged an angel while he was in the waiting room. Seems like something that, while rare, Heaven would want to discourage.
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Mar 7, 2023 00:40
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Does Eugene have ADD or something? Hyper focus, then lose interest, something like that?
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Mar 7, 2023 02:03
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Taciturn Tactician posted:A system that has so much existing as a spirit and resurrection surely has to account for post-death morality. AFAIK you're incapable of changing at all after you die so no
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Mar 7, 2023 05:45
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TheAceOfLungs posted:Does Eugene have ADD or something? Hyper focus, then lose interest, something like that? That's a completely different alignment chart
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Mar 7, 2023 05:47
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SlothfulCobra posted:I feel like goons are disproportionately in favor of severing their parents, but that's not really a relevant concept because Euene is dead. Roy doesn't actually have control over having contact with Eugene, He does, actually. Roy just has to ditch the sword and contact stops. 
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Mar 7, 2023 06:00
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Cup Runneth Over posted:AFAIK you're incapable of changing at all after you die so no Then if you're incapable of changing after you die and you do terrible things after you die, you have to have been a person who would do that before you died, therefore judging you for those actions is judging the person you were before you died 
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Mar 7, 2023 07:13
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Taciturn Tactician posted:Then if you're incapable of changing after you die and you do terrible things after you die, you have to have been a person who would do that before you died, therefore judging you for those actions is judging the person you were before you died I think you're working your way towards Calvinism.
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Mar 7, 2023 07:40
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SlothfulCobra posted:I think you're working your way towards Calvinism. Everyone's alignment has been predetermined. Only those fated to be Lawful Good will become so.
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Mar 7, 2023 11:51
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TheAceOfLungs posted:Does Eugene have ADD or something? Hyper focus, then lose interest, something like that? A Wizard of Goatse posted:That's a completely different alignment chart
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Mar 7, 2023 13:46
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fool of sound posted:Those plus uh, beastlandic?? sorry kevin and kell is definitely a chaotic evil afterlife
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Mar 7, 2023 13:58
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TheAceOfLungs posted:Does Eugene have ADD or something? Hyper focus, then lose interest, something like that? I went ahead and looked it up: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html I wouldn't diagnose him with anything, but Eugene's issue is that he doesn't see things through to a natural conclusion.
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Mar 7, 2023 19:09
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Shugojin posted:sorry kevin and kell is definitely a chaotic evil afterlife But think of all that delicious orange soda!
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Mar 7, 2023 19:10
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Thaddius the Large posted:But think of all that delicious orange soda!
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Mar 7, 2023 20:01
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Thaddius the Large posted:But think of all that delicious orange soda! Quick! Grab some furry comics, some 90s software humor, and an inflatable hedgehog and meet me at Bill Gates's house in 30 minutes!
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Mar 7, 2023 21:20
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Aw, here it goes!
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Mar 7, 2023 22:35
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girl dick energy posted:Is Kel Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral? I haven't watched that show in literal decades, but he's a lot like Elan now that I think about it... Update the all batman alignment chart but its all kel
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Mar 7, 2023 23:02
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