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Beeftweeter posted:riker doesn't really have an arc, that's true; he's the first officer, his job can basically be boiled down to "enforcer" for captain picard. basically once a decision is reached, it's up to him to get the crew to fall in line His job is also in charge of personnel decisions and day-to-day operations in the ship. He signs off on promotions and does evaluations, allocates ship resources (which department gets to use the lateral sensor array for which project at which time) and acts as a screen for Picard. He arbitrates disputes between departments and probably brings in Picard when he's not sure what decision to make. His arc, if he has any, is how does he balance his own career with his own desires. He's clearly ready for independent command -- both Starfleet and Picard say this. But Riker wants the Enterprise and he's not willing to give up being on this ship for command of any other vessel. But at the same time, it's unlikely that Starfleet is going to give the flagship as a first command to what's obviously a very young captain (ST09 notwithstanding). He's made commander in what's said to be an incredibly short amount of time. IIRC, practically a third of his career is as Picard's first officer. Why is he there for so long, is he getting too comfortable, is he stagnating when he should be advancing?
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Mar 7, 2023 08:28
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The Orville had one of the best series finale ive seen. I guess not officially the series finale yet, but it seems pretty likely to be.
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Mar 7, 2023 09:19
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Beeftweeter posted:as for "these are the voyages", yeah, i don't even really consider it an episode of enterprise, it barely keeps up the pretense that it is one. similarly they could have stopped with "terra prime" and i think people would have been far less pissed off I mean, if ENT had ended with Terra Prime, it would have been weird (Trip and T'Pol mourning their "daughter" isn't much of a finale for the show as a whole), but hey, show got cancelled. Cancelled shows end weird all the time!
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Mar 7, 2023 14:55
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Fighting Trousers posted:I mean, if ENT had ended with Terra Prime, it would have been weird (Trip and T'Pol mourning their "daughter" isn't much of a finale for the show as a whole), but hey, show got cancelled. Cancelled shows end weird all the time! T'pol and Trip mourning their daughter was a very fitting end for Enterprise's cancellation because it was about the premature death of something very close to them before it ever had a chance to grow and fufill its potential Also it was just a good thematic show finale about the death of the 'our' earth and the birth of the Federation, it's not quite up there with All Good Things and What You Leave Behind but I thought it was still a good note to go out on a a hell of alot better than Endgame
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Mar 7, 2023 15:11
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Also, you should be legally forbidden from entitling your finale 'Endgame' unless you can demonstrate that it is the culmination of a intricate long-running plotline, you can't just call a random two parter that wraps things up out of nowhere Endgame for some cheap grvitas!
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Mar 7, 2023 15:13
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No Dignity posted:Also, you should be legally forbidden from entitling your finale 'Endgame' unless you can demonstrate that it is the culmination of a intricate long-running plotline, you can't just call a random two parter that wraps things up out of nowhere Endgame for some cheap grvitas! You can't tell me how I'm going to name the last episode of my series about a spy who sneaks on to a drug gang run tropic island to infiltrate a secrete international chess tournament TO THE DEATH!!!!
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Mar 7, 2023 15:34
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No Dignity posted:Also, you should be legally forbidden from entitling your finale 'Endgame' unless you can demonstrate that it is the culmination of a intricate long-running plotline, you can't just call a random two parter that wraps things up out of nowhere Endgame for some cheap grvitas! Babylon 5 had an episode named Endgame and the name was actually appropriate, for exactly the reason you cite -- it brought some LONG arcs to a conclusion. (It also wasn't the show finale or even a season-ender.)
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Mar 7, 2023 15:48
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Timby posted:Turnabout Intruder is a horrible, misogynistic episode and emblematic of Gene Roddenberry's view of women, but it was produced in an era when "series finales" weren't really a thing (outside of The Fugitive in 1967). So while it was the final episode of The Original Series, it wasn't the series finale, if that makes sense. Turnabout Intruder doesn't exist. All Our Yesterdays is TOS' finale (which works better as a final episode anyway).
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Mar 7, 2023 15:57
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The Fugitive and The Prisoner are the two 60s shows I think of as really having finales in the modern sense. TOS wasn’t really the kind of show that needed one—what would it even be, the end of the five year mission and they all go their separate ways?—what a bummer that would be. But “All Our Yesterdays” is a good episode that encourages thoughts about past things and finality without literally being an episode where everything ends. dr_rat posted:You can't tell me how I'm going to name the last episode of my series about a spy who sneaks on to a drug gang run tropic island to infiltrate a secrete international chess tournament TO THE DEATH!!!! “The Mystery of Chessboxing” obviously
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Mar 7, 2023 16:26
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I know it's not the most popular because of its producer/star, but Star Trek Continues had a finale that was exactly that: a final adventure that called back to one of TOS' earliest episodes Where No Man Has Gone Before and the decommissioning of the Enterprise so that refit work could begin. As lovely as Mignogna is, it's pretty well done.
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Mar 7, 2023 16:29
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While a little bit later, the final episode of Blakes 7 in 1981 was definitely created as a series finale (as was the final episode of the third season, but the BBC controller watched it broadcast, then called them up and demanded a fourth season!) My only issue with All Our Yesterdays as a finale is that it’s just Kirk, Spock and McCoy on a planet - the Enterprise barely features in it (there are no scenes on the ship), and I believe the only other crew member to appear is a voice over from Scotty.
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Mar 7, 2023 16:30
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Some of Our Yesterdays
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Mar 7, 2023 16:32
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Zaroff posted:My only issue with All Our Yesterdays as a finale is that it’s just Kirk, Spock and McCoy on a planet - the Enterprise barely features in it (there are no scenes on the ship), and I believe the only other crew member to appear is a voice over from Scotty. That's true. What it lacks in a final glimpse of the Enterprise I think it makes up for in 'Big Three' characterization - in particular, between Bones and Spock. The "I don't like that" scene is one of my favorites of the series. I suspect it was added in part as a response to fan criticism that despite all of Bones' teasing/microaggressions, Spock never really got a chance to say what he really thought because he had to be a dispassionate Vulcan. In Zarabeth's time he got a chance to finally express himself. Incidentally, someone mentioned Babylon 5 a while back. I just noticed that TubiTV has all of B5 available for streaming, so I'm looking forward to getting into that. I've heard that Koenig is pretty good in it.
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Mar 7, 2023 16:33
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Nothing in history has aged worse than 90s CGI and well, B5 is Exhibit A for that position.
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Mar 7, 2023 16:54
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Season1 is rough, what with the raider fighters exploding into perfect triangles. But I'd say the later seasons stand up fairly well.
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Mar 7, 2023 17:08
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I don't think B5's CG effects aged poorly because the things about that show that don't look great didn't really look great when they aired, either. My dad was hardcore into B5 and even as a kid I remember thinking the effects really did not look good compared to Star Trek, even though I didn't get the CG/practical distinction at the time. B5 is loving great and I love it but it's wonky in ways that aren't really a product of its time so much as just the inherent wonkiness of what it is.
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Mar 7, 2023 17:12
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V-Men posted:Season1 is rough, what with the raider fighters exploding into perfect triangles. But I'd say the later seasons stand up fairly well.
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Mar 7, 2023 17:13
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Paradoxish posted:I don't think B5's CG effects aged poorly because the things about that show that don't look great didn't really look great when they aired lol fair enough
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Mar 7, 2023 17:20
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Babylon 5 walked so Deep Space 9 could run. (Foundation imaging did the CG for the first 3 seasons of Babylon 5 and then went on to do effects work for "Call to Arms" and then seasons 6 and 7 of DS9.)
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Mar 7, 2023 17:49
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No Dignity posted:T'pol and Trip mourning their daughter was a very fitting end for Enterprise's cancellation because it was about the premature death of something very close to them before it ever had a chance to grow and fufill its potential yeah. "terra prime" and "all our yesterdays" are actually thematically pretty similar; they both show loss (on enterprise, it's the space baby, on TOS, it's sarpedion), and deal with it differently "terra prime" is more about accepting that loss and moving on while "yesterdays" is essentially the opposite; on sarpedion, people retreat into the past to escape their fate, but the planet's destruction is inevitable anyway either one would work as a finale, i think
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Mar 7, 2023 17:57
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Beeftweeter posted:yeah. "terra prime" and "all our yesterdays" are actually thematically pretty similar; they both show loss (on enterprise, it's the space baby, on TOS, it's sarpedion), and deal with it differently Terra Prime also ends on an uplifting note of "Earth defeats racism" and Archer giving a speech that lays the groundwork for the Federation. So it's a mostly satisfying if abrupt ending.
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Mar 7, 2023 18:03
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An Enterprise finale that ends with Archer giving a speech? No no, we can’t possibly have that.
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Mar 7, 2023 18:08
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nine-gear crow posted:Terra Prime also ends on an uplifting note of "Earth defeats racism" and Archer giving a speech that lays the groundwork for the Federation. So it's a mostly satisfying if abrupt ending. You can tell it’s Star Trek because it’s got an optimistic message about humanity’s ability to grow that we have completely failed to live up to in the years since. 
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Mar 7, 2023 18:12
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Arivia posted:You can tell it’s Star Trek because it’s got an optimistic message about humanity’s ability to grow that we have completely failed to live up to in the years since. Star Trek's optimism is predicated on us blowing ourselves up first, so don't jump the gun just yet.
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Mar 7, 2023 18:19
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I do like that even Star Trek, one of the least bloodthirsty and most kumbaya-assed works of scifi ever to achieve widespread popularity, just has “the majority of humankind, multiple deca-Hitlers worth, including all the most annoying people, were once exterminated in a nuclear hell storm” as a casually referenced background element. Really goes to show uh. Something
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Mar 7, 2023 18:27
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They are extremely obsessed with late 20th century and early 21st century culture and entertainment but NOT the global thermonuclear war.
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Mar 7, 2023 18:28
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skasion posted:I do like that even Star Trek, one of the least bloodthirsty and most kumbaya-assed works of scifi ever to achieve widespread popularity, just has “the majority of humankind, multiple deca-Hitlers worth, including all the most annoying people, were once exterminated in a nuclear hell storm” as a casually referenced background element. Really goes to show uh. Something I really love this as part of Trek. It manages to feel almost optimistic about nuclear hellfire - yeah, we hosed up, we almost wiped ourselves out, but we grew and overcome it. I think it would be a bit too end-of-history to have us smoothly transition from modern neoliberalism to glorious space utopia. Although isn't Earth still kind of lovely in First Contact? Having the Vulcans come and tell us to sort our poo poo out in response to one dude building a warp rocket kind of undercuts the idea that humanity can improve itself.
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Mar 7, 2023 18:40
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Big Mean Jerk posted:An Enterprise finale that ends with Archer giving a speech? No no, we can’t possibly have that. Its actually a good thing; that speech is supposed to be that awesome, inspiring work of art in rhetorics, by a masterclass orator that the Captain Archer was, that sets up the foundation for the Federation to become a thing. So do you really want to see the version that Berman & Braga cames up as that The speech, performed by a badly miscast Scott Bakula? Especially after they came up with this masterpiece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8k5HbspfrA&t=268s
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Mar 7, 2023 18:52
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Although isn't Earth still kind of lovely in First Contact? Having the Vulcans come and tell us to sort our poo poo out in response to one dude building a warp rocket kind of undercuts the idea that humanity can improve itself. In First Contact, the way they make it sound is that it's partly the Vulcans helping us out, but mostly just the shock to the system that it gave the human race. We unified as a result of 'holy poo poo aliens exist'. (And I like to think 'holy poo poo aliens exist and we just nuked ourselves, this is so embarrassing')
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Mar 7, 2023 19:20
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I really love this as part of Trek. It manages to feel almost optimistic about nuclear hellfire - yeah, we hosed up, we almost wiped ourselves out, but we grew and overcome it. I think it would be a bit too end-of-history to have us smoothly transition from modern neoliberalism to glorious space utopia. part of it is that the vulcans happened to be in (or near, i guess) the solar system, so when they see that these hu-mons have strapped themselves to a missile that had just decimated the planet's population, they feel like they should check it out and see what's going on. we see in enterprise that the vulcans had been interested in earth for hundreds of years at that point, and are probably only familiar with us as primitive savages in first contact itself the vulcans don't do any of the warp drive guardrails bullshit they do in enterprise. they're just giving us a, uh, vulcan hello
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Mar 7, 2023 19:33
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I think its more like "hey those guys who just nuked themselves got invaded and I think someone invented a new type of warp drive, can you go to check what the hell is going on there". The technology gatekeeping started when they arrived and saw how things were in reality. Pretty lousy spy satellite from the Vulcans, if it fails to capture two large ships in the system.
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Mar 7, 2023 19:36
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Let's call it the P. Directive. No, that's too obvious. The Prime D.
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Mar 7, 2023 19:38
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I really love this as part of Trek. It manages to feel almost optimistic about nuclear hellfire - yeah, we hosed up, we almost wiped ourselves out, but we grew and overcome it. I think it would be a bit too end-of-history to have us smoothly transition from modern neoliberalism to glorious space utopia. Star Trek's apocalypse is explicitly optimistic, as weird as that sounds. Nuclear armageddon was basically a foregone conclusion for a lot of people, so a scenario where humanity powers through and comes out better on the other side is the good ending. "We don't blow ourselves up" was just never an option.
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Mar 7, 2023 19:43
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dr_rat posted:You can't tell me how I'm going to name the last episode of my series about a spy who sneaks on to a drug gang run tropic island to infiltrate a secrete international chess tournament TO THE DEATH!!!! When "Checkmate" is right there SMDH
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Mar 7, 2023 19:44
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zoux posted:Let's call it the P. Directive. No, that's too obvious. The Prime D. The Paramount Decree
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Mar 7, 2023 19:45
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Maybe it's brought up in other series as well, but in Strange New Worlds, Spock is pretty smug about how the Starfleet notion of "First Contact" (no contact until they achieve warp drive) is the same process the Vulcans had in place for hundreds (thousands?) of years before Cochrane blasted into space on a missile. So the Vulcans weren't doing anything "special" with Earth, they were just doing what they normally do. And in fact, First Contact gives it some urgency (the Vulcans will be too far away to pick up the warp signature if we don't launch by X time) which also implies that the Vulcans were paying no special attention to Earth at the time.
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Mar 7, 2023 19:45
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zoux posted:Let's call it the P. Directive. No, that's too obvious. The Prime D. Rule Number 1 of The Federation: Don't talk about The Federation to pre-warp civilizations
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Mar 7, 2023 19:46
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Der Kyhe posted:Pretty lousy spy satellite from the Vulcans, if it fails to capture two large ships in the system. Spy satellite? You mean the scout ship that picked up the Phoenix? It happened to be passing by at the time when the Phoenix did the warp jump, but only at the max range to pick that up: there was a very brief window for them to see it according to first contact. They weren't around when the Borg Ship and the E came in, and then the E was deliberately trying not to get seen. There's a line in the movie about the E stealthing behind the moon when the Vulcans divert to Earth. I would imagine '24th century ship trying to hide' is going to be practically invisible to a 21st century Vulcan ship's sensors. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Mar 7, 2023 |
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Mar 7, 2023 19:48
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I think the deal with first contact was that it was a coincidence. A Vulcan scout ship juat happened to be nearby when the Phoenix launched and went into warp.
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Mar 7, 2023 19:49
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Epicurius posted:I think the deal with first contact was that it was a coincidence. A Vulcan scout ship juat happened to be nearby when the Phoenix launched and went into warp. it's this, they weren't around for the borg attack (because it is stopped by the enterprise-E pretty quickly) and even then most of the borg stuff happens on the ship there's even a small story beat about them having to move the enterprise into a position where the vulcans won't detect it. it's maybe three lines at most e: mike 
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Mar 7, 2023 19:54
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