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Woebin posted:How do we define what a roguelike is these days, anyway? The Berlin Interpretation is pretty old at this point and had some issues to start with. I personally feel like FTL "qualifies" as a roguelike but none of the other things on that list (that I've played at least) do, but I'd be hard pressed to explain exactly why I feel that way. ArcMage posted:The feature that defined it for me was the turn-based but everything acts at once combat, but the feature that defined it for Steam was 'procedural generation I guess?'. I feel the same. The Berlin Interpretation is a lost cause. That's why we have "Traditional Roguelikes" now, because those games are completely irrelevant in the eyes of the mainstream public, so I feel like the rogulike/roguelite distinction now is "is this game game about grinding it out until you get enough upgrades to beat it or is it about getting better at the game until you beat it." And, yes, I'm exaggerating here because I hate metaprogression and all games are usually a mix of those two, but I also feel like metaprogression is such an antithesis to the traditional roguelike genre that I think they need their own distinction.
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Mar 7, 2023 14:14
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I know it's unhelpful, but the real answer is that genre is only useful for describing things - if it's not easy to say what genre something is, that's a good thing if anything. So if it's hard to say what's in a genre and what isn't, there's no problem that needs arguing about. The genre just isn't a sharply-defined, black-and-white dichotomy. Not every genre definition has to be as blatantly mechanical as "FPS"; it's fine to say "this is a gut-feel sort of property that a game can kinda-sorta have." Just look at the concept of a "puzzle game" - is the most recent God of War a puzzle game? How about Tetris?* * I'm being rhetorical please do not write me an essay about tetris
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Mar 7, 2023 14:44
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you're basically right but I do feel like saying that actual, true permadeath is very clearcut and mechanical, and is one of the biggest points of seperation between tradtional RLs and the newer stuff
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Mar 7, 2023 14:46
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Oh, absolutely. For me, the core of that gut-feel property is that you go on "runs" and the runs are completely separate, like an old-school arcade machine. When you run out of lives on Raiden II you don't get to buy permanent upgrades.
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Mar 7, 2023 14:52
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Nothing which is not turn-based is properly roguelike to me but I like lots of the procedurally-generated platformers and poo poo so the search term is still sort of useful. Whether a game tagged as 'roguelike', 'rogue-lite', or anything else actually has any qualities of the genre is a crapshoot, of course.
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Mar 7, 2023 15:01
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I think my first metaprogression game was Rogue Legacy, which I loved, and Streets of Rogue is great too. But they have absolutely nothing in common with Nethack or Angband beyond procedural level and loot generation. Permadeath definitely does not mean "for this character, but you get to immediately replace them with a better character." As said above, the distinction between progression by you gitting gud vs. by your character getting stronger with each death is pretty drat clear.
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Mar 7, 2023 15:39
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Is it that time of year again where we make "X is a roguelike" jokes?
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Mar 7, 2023 16:18
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this conversation is a roguelike because nothing carries over to the next iteration of it when it dies
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Mar 7, 2023 16:24
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Is this metaregression?
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Mar 7, 2023 16:29
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ArcMage posted:'Traditional Roguelike' seems to work as a descriptor for, like a traditional roguelikes, and I'm not going to blame steam's trash garbage tagging system on terminology disagreements. you'd think so but i've ran into websites calling The Binding of Isaac a "traditional roguelike" 
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Mar 7, 2023 16:50
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have any of you traditionalist played Crown Trick? I quite liked it but it combines traditional turn based movement/combat with the structure and trappings of all the modern action rogueli*es, which I think some of you might find to be an abomination lol
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Mar 7, 2023 16:59
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There are plenty of trad-ish turn-based dungeon crawlers with metaprogression. I like Rogue Wizards, it's a cute little newb-friendly roguelite.
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Mar 7, 2023 17:03
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megane posted:* I'm being rhetorical please do not write me an essay about tetris Tetris has procedural generation and permadeath so I'd argue it's a roguelike
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Mar 7, 2023 17:11
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Fellatio del Toro posted:have any of you traditionalist played Crown Trick? It's been discussed, i kind of liked it but it felt a bit shallow and i wandered off distracted by something else.
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Mar 7, 2023 17:19
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Impermanent posted:this conversation is a roguelike because nothing carries over to the next iteration of it when it dies  Are roguelikes the sandwiches of video games?
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Mar 7, 2023 17:19
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RL stands for Real Life because that is the ultimate rogue like.
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Mar 7, 2023 17:22
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Evil Kit posted:RL stands for Real Life because that is the ultimate rogue like. Isn't Rogue a Life-like?
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Mar 7, 2023 17:23
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Evil Kit posted:RL stands for Real Life because that is the ultimate rogue like. wait do you guys not start over with all of your meta upgrades when you die?
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Mar 7, 2023 17:24
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You do if you follow any religions that support reincarnation.
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Mar 7, 2023 17:24
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Veryslightlymad posted:
Truly, rogue likes are the dark soulses of video games
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Mar 7, 2023 17:29
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Reincarnation might ostensibly be on the roadmap but it hasn’t been implemented yet, and considering the complete absence of patches or updates despite some glaring balance issues (0 iframes when dodge-rolling??) I think it’s safe to say the devs have abandoned irl.
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Mar 7, 2023 17:31
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Diephoon posted:Truly, rogue likes are the dark soulses of video games Is a taco a souls like? (A: No. Soulslikes are what they are because of lovely and poorly thought out controls. Fondue is clearly the soulslikes of food.) Fellatio del Toro posted:wait do you guys not start over with all of your meta upgrades when you die? The thought that I might be an upgraded version of me briefly made me want to cry.
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Mar 7, 2023 18:50
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So what's the earliest instance of metaprogression that y’all are aware of? Nethack had bones files but I don’t really count that, as it’s not strictly progression, just a shot at your old loot that you may or may not go for. Shiren SFC is the first one that comes to mind. And FWIW I’ve always liked Shiren’s approach to metaprogression because it smooths out the difficulty curve while making you earn all of it. Also Shiren gets bullshit at its end, and you need every trick you can come up with. Anything before that?
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Mar 7, 2023 18:50
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Not sure how to define it, but I know a traditional roguelike when I see it
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Mar 7, 2023 19:43
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I got the Castlevania DLC for Dead Cells since I love Castlevania but never was too hot on DC. Played until it dumped me into a regular run (post-Death fight) and then I got to the "hand of the king" fight and all my attacks which were chumping enemies up until this point did almost no damage to him and I ended up dying just due to attrition. Why is this considered good design lol. Did I not have enough metaprog unlocks or something.
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Mar 7, 2023 19:50
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Ibram Gaunt posted:
Bosses with enough life to give a 3-4 minute fight aren't exactly rare in videogames. Even more when it's the final boss.
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Mar 7, 2023 19:53
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https://twitter.com/HardDriveMag/status/1632863625940484099
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Mar 7, 2023 19:58
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the technology is almost there
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Mar 7, 2023 19:58
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Turin Turambar posted:Bosses with enough life to give a 3-4 minute fight aren't exactly rare in videogames. Even more when it's the final boss. I guess I'd rather they work like every other boss where they are dangerous but not gigantic hp sacks that take forever. Stuff like the clock tower fight was perfect danger ratio.
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Mar 7, 2023 20:12
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Jedit posted:gently caress IGN is all I can say to that. 67% used to be considered above average, albeit not exceptional. Eh? I used to read gaming mags for Amiga games in the 90s and anything below 70% was bad even back then
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Mar 7, 2023 20:16
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I got the Castlevania DLC for Dead Cells since I love Castlevania but never was too hot on DC. Played until it dumped me into a regular run (post-Death fight) and then I got to the "hand of the king" fight and all my attacks which were chumping enemies up until this point did almost no damage to him and I ended up dying just due to attrition. It's easier than it was at previous points of development but Hand of the King is a pretty tough fight, yeah. It definitely doesn't require any metaprogression/blacksmith upgrades but it's pretty much expected you pick up every stat scroll in every stage and are using some recently-acquired high level gear you've picked up in one of the last couple levels. Either way he's certainly balanced to take longer to kill than other bosses; you can't really just ignore his attack patterns and burn him down. That said, nice job on beating Timekeeper blind! That boss is also no joke.
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Mar 7, 2023 20:29
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balance is when i beat the fight, imbalance is when i lose (no shade i just feel this way a lot lmao)
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Mar 7, 2023 20:50
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Do bosses not scale the way everything else does in Dead Cells?
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Mar 7, 2023 21:00
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ArcMage posted:Do bosses not scale the way everything else does in Dead Cells? In what sense?
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Mar 7, 2023 21:10
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ArcMage posted:Do bosses not scale the way everything else does in Dead Cells? They do. They also have damage caps, which increases the amount of time it takes to kill them and kinda creates some perverse incentives.
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Mar 7, 2023 21:12
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So grabbing every scroll is not necessarily advantageous.
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Mar 7, 2023 21:13
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ArcMage posted:So grabbing every scroll is not necessarily advantageous. Oh, I think I misunderstood the question. No, bosses don't scale based on your scroll count. Always grab every scroll you can, and unless you're really suffering for health, put the point in your primary damage stat
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Mar 7, 2023 21:15
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That polygon article has Enter the Gungeon on it and does not have Nuclear Throne, it's clearly bullshit. Mostly joking (EtG is totally fine, if you are into that kinda thing, while imo NT is basically perfect for what it is) but the way the justification for that cowboy game is written is deeply embarrassing. Not having a single traditional roguelike on there is pretty funny though.
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Mar 7, 2023 21:28
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Pladdicus posted:balance is when i beat the fight, imbalance is when i lose I get a lot of reviews like this lol
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Mar 7, 2023 21:52
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Impermanent posted:this conversation is a roguelike because nothing carries over to the next iteration of it when it dies lol
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Mar 7, 2023 22:04
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