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A Sometimes Food posted:I'm pretty sure what Athena did was basically memetic poison. The soul union forced him to understand her hosed up psychopath reasoning and that's basically wedged into his psyche now. Doesn't she say exactly that when she entices him to do the union and then old.man lahabrea repeats that exact same point when he talks about why he took such drastic measures? https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Loremonger:Truth_Imperfect Yeah I can't copy paste on phone as well but that's the text of what happens. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Mar 6, 2023 |
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Mar 6, 2023 17:07
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Doesn't she say exactly that when she entices him to do the union and then old.man lahabrea repeats that exact same point when he talks about why he took such drastic measures? Yeah, that is the entire point of the plot. Athena did something so horrible and invasive to him that 'cut a chunk of my own soul out to remove it' was like his only option. Trying to paint it as an overreaction or something is weird because it really isn't.
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Mar 6, 2023 17:44
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:...we do find out what he learned: that his wife never loved him or their son besides whatever use they'd have for her experiments, and that Athena did something to his soul that would drive him to become obsessed with her ideal. And given how Hephaestus acted and the implications Ascian Lahabrea might be related to that trying to fix that is not a bad idea. Yeah but we don’t know what the experiments were for do we?
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Mar 6, 2023 18:42
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Badger of Basra posted:Yeah but we don’t know what the experiments were for do we? I've kinda assumed that the purpose of the experiments was something like the Ascians - "freedom" from occupying a single corporeal form, which is inherently monstrous to Ancient ethics because it requires the practitioner prey upon other life and literally bodyjack or absorb them?
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Mar 6, 2023 18:46
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Badger of Basra posted:Yeah but we don’t know what the experiments were for do we? They were to obtain godlike power regardless of the cost or risk to others. The hemitheos stuff was an example and one of the things Athena pushed for. Like per Lahabrea she didn't care if the entire star died. She would go full Lavos if she could. Like what we know of Athena us that she is basically Hojo, utterly amoral and only interested in research. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Mar 6, 2023 |
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Mar 6, 2023 18:48
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Someone refresh my memory on what happened to the chunk of Lahabrea's soul he carved out after we beat it up in P8 and what happened to the man himself after he got owned by Thordan. I'm just wondering is it possible they rejoined in the Aetherial Sea and maybe that's why Pandaemonium is showing up there now?
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Mar 6, 2023 19:04
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Badger of Basra posted:Yeah but we don’t know what the experiments were for do we? I've figured that we'll find out in the third installment of the raid series. Electric Phantasm posted:Someone refresh my memory on what happened to the chunk of Lahabrea's soul he carved out after we beat it up in P8 and what happened to the man himself after he got owned by Thordan. Lahabrea said he was going to take care of it, but never said what he was going to do.
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Mar 6, 2023 19:19
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Electric Phantasm posted:Someone refresh my memory on what happened to the chunk of Lahabrea's soul he carved out after we beat it up in P8 and what happened to the man himself after he got owned by Thordan. Curious to see how they handle the thing with Pandaemonium showing up in the present and what happened with Claudien (who, based on his appearance, has Erichthonios' soul) and his trip to Azys Lla. The only real connection I could make for Azys Lla is that it's where Thordan consumed Lahabrea.
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Mar 6, 2023 19:46
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Were I to speculate on where the story is going, there is a non-zero possibility that Athena is still out there on the loose in one form or another.
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Mar 6, 2023 20:04
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Badger of Basra posted:Yeah but we don’t know what the experiments were for do we? ...she explicitly wanted to make Ancients even more godlike via soul fusion. That's the whole reason with fusing beasts. And then there's the implication that's what lead to Ascians and Ascian Prime. Like, Athena is very explicit on her motives (SCIENCE!), why the hell are people going about nothing being explained and Lahabrea cutting out the poisoned part of the soul as an absolutely dumb move instead of "good idea, bad method, still better than his parenting skills".
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Mar 6, 2023 20:09
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iPodschun posted:My assumption is that after P8, Lahabrea re-sealed that part of his soul away in a stone. I feel like that was shown but I haven't watched that cutscene in months. My other assumption is that after the sundering, Lahabrea merged back with his soul that's in the stone to access Athena's knowledge again and that's how the Ascians became able to body hop and such. Didn't the other researchers say he was muttering something about finding "the other half" after being the only one to hear a voice from the soul crystal? I'm theorizing something like Lahabrea released Heaphaistos, deeming the dark knowledge of Soul Transcendence was necessary after The Sundering, but then got imprisoned in his place as a "gently caress you." So Sad Bad Dad Lahabrea is still interred in Pandaemonium, and needs whatever's in Azys Lla to be released. Either another crystal the Ascian had been carrying when he died, or whatever may remain of his aether lingering in the reactor area.
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Mar 6, 2023 20:44
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Either way you slice it, I don't think Pandabrea is going to survive P9-12, and we're going to see the seed planted that sets him on the path to becoming ARR Lahabread.
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Mar 6, 2023 22:41
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I kinda figure that the Stone contains 'rejected Hephaistos' part, and it's driving the researcher who's probably the soul of his son reborn to take that half of the soul to Azys La to reunite with the rest of the Soul, who might still be trapped there, and we might end up fighting 'Complete Lahabrea'
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Mar 6, 2023 22:47
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Doesn't she say exactly that when she entices him to do the union and then old.man lahabrea repeats that exact same point when he talks about why he took such drastic measures? Yeah, I don't see that as some kind of memetic poison. I see it more as Athena sharing information that's just too tempting for him to not act on; she was on to something so juicy that if he just kept on knowing it, it'd keep gnawing at him. Nothing supernatural (at least, not that part), just something he'd remain curious about. And that's what I mean by the fact we don't know: he learned something that made him immediately go 'I have to perform extremely imprecise and dangerous psychic surgery on myself to make sure I don't remember this'. And since that something probably wasn't just how terrible his wife was, we have to reason that it was the thing Athena psychically told him, which we don't know save that it was, in fact, actionable information that she herself was working from, and Hephaistos was motivated by. In all honesty, I think the main reason that it was some terrible but enticing secret is because that's a perfect seed for exactly four more raids. With that, Athena, Lahabrea, Erich and the Ancient world itself all have routes to develop as we learn just what she discovered that was so taboo but so compelling, where they disagreed, and how exactly this poor kid who sucks at his job factors in. Whereas if it's just a memetic poison, we learn... what, exactly? That a woman who is now dead could channel memetic poisons through a method nobody else can do now anyway? Also I will say that the only place I heard the 'memetic poison' theory before now was one of the most jaw-droppingly stupid lore OF posters, who immediately got slapped down for having no real evidence and I suspect was just going for it to simplify the situation down to 'Lahabrea And Ancients Good, Athena Bad'.
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Mar 7, 2023 00:16
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After seeing a Reddit post about the second boss of Lapis Manalis judging your groups' DPS and speed in killing her, I tried getting the rank 1 dialogue with some friends last night. My DPS isn't BiS since I didn't do P8S, but even after I stepped out and a different DPS joined that was BiS that still wasn't enough with food+pots. It took intentionally sandbagging on the trash mobs and single pulling to prolong the combat right before the boss so they could roll into the boss arena with all cooldowns and full resources on top of food+pots in order to get the kill time for the dialogue. Fun little easter egg that very few people are going to see considering that it'll be impossible to get that dialogue with a standard DF party (this was done with 1 tank 3 DPS). This is the dialogue in case anyone's curious: quote:<creak> Regimen complete. Evaluation ranking: 1.
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Mar 7, 2023 00:42
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Cleretic posted:Yeah, I don't see that as some kind of memetic poison. I see it more as Athena sharing information that's just too tempting for him to not act on; she was on to something so juicy that if he just kept on knowing it, it'd keep gnawing at him. A) That's literally what that word means B) Her line of text is in fact quote:Try as you might to excise the memory, the seed of desire remains. And when it takes root, you too shall be consumed by the selfsame fervor. This isn't "You're going to think my plan is so cool because you too are a scholar" this is "Melding our souls will literally implant my desires into you and it WILL grow and take over". Which isn't just he telling him a cool idea and him being really into it. If that was the case she wouldn't have needed to meld souls with him, to share her very mind and feelings as if they were his own, to convince him. Her entire goal as stated in the text of that scene is to essentially directly copy her goals and desires into him. If your read is right, there's no need for the soul fuckery, she HAD to make him feel exactly as he did for the seed to germinate in him, to make him into herself in part.
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Mar 7, 2023 01:15
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL_Gx1QX8oM Can't wait for the loporitts to spam party chat advertising their new night club
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Mar 7, 2023 04:30
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Electric Phantasm posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL_Gx1QX8oM Why can't I place this leitmotif?? I know I've heard it countless times 
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Mar 7, 2023 05:20
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Kite Pride Worldwide posted:Why can't I place this leitmotif?? I know I've heard it countless times https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9QD25nakt8
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Mar 7, 2023 05:26
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Kite Pride Worldwide posted:Why can't I place this leitmotif?? I know I've heard it countless times Isn't that bit of Unbreakable (Fractal Continuum) that got remixed into The Twinning remixed again?
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Mar 7, 2023 05:27
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Kite Pride Worldwide posted:Why can't I place this leitmotif?? I know I've heard it countless times Hogama fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Mar 7, 2023 |
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Mar 7, 2023 05:29
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The song seems to just be the version of A Long Fall from the Pulse album, for the record. Knew I had heard it before.
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Mar 7, 2023 05:37
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Hogama posted:It's the Crystal Tower motif (you'll hear it in Out of the Labyrinth/Shattered/A Long Fall, for instance) That's right... I never run Alliance Raids if I can help it so it's just A Long Fall for me 
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Mar 7, 2023 05:49
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Electric Phantasm posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL_Gx1QX8oM Speaking of, a fun element of the Twitter takeover: https://twitter.com/FF_XIV_EN/status/1632898407928066050 For context, Anonymoose has been on a mostly-joke thing the last couple weeks over whether or not the Loporrits have souls, and couldn't find conclusive information either way. This is proof, and also legitimately meaningful to how we consider souls in FFXIV's world! ZenMasterBullshit posted:This isn't "You're going to think my plan is so cool because you too are a scholar" this is "Melding our souls will literally implant my desires into you and it WILL grow and take over". Which isn't just he telling him a cool idea and him being really into it. If that was the case she wouldn't have needed to meld souls with him, to share her very mind and feelings as if they were his own, to convince him. Her entire goal as stated in the text of that scene is to essentially directly copy her goals and desires into him. If your read is right, there's no need for the soul fuckery, she HAD to make him feel exactly as he did for the seed to germinate in him, to make him into herself in part. Actually I think that line does mean that first one when accounting for the fact that, much like every other Ancient, Athena is a hugely dramatic bitch. She knows he's curious, so all he needs is the seed that an enticing but terrible idea is in fact possible, and he'll eventually pursue it. I think they did the soul melding thing because they knew they wanted ultimately different things from the interaction, and it was the only way to be sure they got things across; Lahabrea wanted to know if she truly loved him, and Athena wanted to get across the specifics of her plan; neither of them is going to be happy with that conversation if it's done in words. I should also note that this doesn't seem to be an unknown concept, since Erich immediately recognizes the situation when he sees it, even if we can say with some confidence that they hadn't done that before. For him it's probably like hearing his parents hosed; reasonably speaking he knew it probably happened at some point, but it's not fun to hear. I'm not really interested in continuing this, though, because I actually think you've combined the two in your mind to a degree that you'll never consider yourself wrong. Short of them out-and-out saying that it was completely normal untainted information (which they won't, because that'd actually make it more confusing if the explanation is just information that's also 'enticingly, can't-look-away horrifying'), you'll just declare yourself right.
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Mar 7, 2023 05:58
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yeah I remember the statement in Elipis that a familiar with a soul is "unusual" but if anyone's going to give an entire species of them a soul it'd probably be Venat
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Mar 7, 2023 06:08
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Cleretic posted:...because I actually think you've combined the two... I honestly initially took the scene to be a kind of combination of what the two of you are talking about. They were melding their souls together in order to more perfectly understand each other and because she was probably more than a little crazy in comparison to the rest of the ancients she wasn't going to change too much from the melding but Hephaistos isn't brain broke and manipulative like she is so he was 'memetically infected' by her persona, completely regardless of the information regarding whatever it was she was actually working on. Which is precisely why he had to take those drastic soul surgery measures in order to excise her influence. On the other hand Cleretic posted:I think the main reason that it was some terrible but enticing secret is because that's a perfect seed for exactly four more raids. This is probably spot on. Either way I think we get some bits of story about how the two initially came together but then we also get the reality that she was more obsessed with her research, to the point that she was willing to nonconsensually sacrifice her son for it, that it's fair to assume that Athena was at least mildly psychopathic or sociopathic. And because of that Hephaistos was warped to a degree that she wasn't after their soul sharing.
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Mar 7, 2023 07:15
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Oh my god Inspector Brandihild
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Mar 7, 2023 11:31
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God Endwalker Hildy has been so loving good jesus christ
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Mar 7, 2023 16:35
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Blockhouse posted:yeah I remember the statement in Elipis that a familiar with a soul is "unusual" but if anyone's going to give an entire species of them a soul it'd probably be Venat at the same time that's not venat's call to make unless she had more control over that once she got stuck in the lifestream
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Mar 7, 2023 16:42
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Jesus loving christ. 6.35 "In the coming battle, you will fight as Godbert. There isn't an  big enough.
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Mar 7, 2023 17:27
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Mister Olympus posted:at the same time that's not venat's call to make unless she had more control over that once she got stuck in the lifestream Soul Engineering kind of seems like one of her specialties.
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Mar 7, 2023 18:02
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Soul breaking maybe. Nothing else she does really hints that she has much else to do with them, other than occasionally shepherd them between shards.
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Mar 7, 2023 18:43
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She modifies your (and others') soul with the protective ward you know as the Blessing of Light. She tagged the escaping Meteion with an aetheric tracking device which must have been deeper than surface-level to last as long as it did. Seems silly to me to assume Hydaelyn wasn't capable of pretty significant soul magic.
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Mar 7, 2023 19:02
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Her official job is "All-Rounder" so I think you'll find she's just good at everything.
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Mar 7, 2023 19:08
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e: whyd I post this here
Vitamean fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Mar 7, 2023 |
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Mar 7, 2023 19:17
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In Elpis we found out that souls were really only given by Etheirys itself for some creations, and they weren't decided on by the creators. There's one reference outside of that I'm aware of: Hythlodaeus saying that it'd be odd for Azem to make a familiar with a soul when talking about you when you first arrived. So, with those two references I'd say it's reasonable that Venat would be able to purposely make Loporrits in such a way to give them souls, but most Ancients in general weren't able to.FuturePastNow posted:She modifies your (and others') soul with the protective ward you know as the Blessing of Light. That I don't think is any particular soul magic. It's just an aetheric shield of a particular purpose, not a modification to our soul. Fixing tempering requires soul magic, but preventing it not necessarily.
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Mar 7, 2023 19:20
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Yeah, I figure it's less 'create a soul' which was beyond even the Ancients, but you might create life that the Star would go 'huh, yeah, this looks like life that should have a soul, here you go'
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Mar 7, 2023 20:53
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The lopporits are good little fellas so they gained souls after hanging around for a bit. Just like how we witnessed Alpha starting as a soulless construct but becoming a real boy by the end of 1 adventure.
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Mar 7, 2023 21:03
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Gruckles posted:The lopporits are good little fellas so they gained souls after hanging around for a bit. Just like how we witnessed Alpha starting as a soulless construct but becoming a real boy by the end of 1 adventure.
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Mar 7, 2023 21:10
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Gruckles posted:The lopporits are good little fellas so they gained souls after hanging around for a bit. Just like how we witnessed Alpha starting as a soulless construct but becoming a real boy by the end of 1 adventure. Actually this is an interesting phenomena. What if what gives you a soul is being on eitherys itself? Omega was in their own weird dimension when we fought them, but alpha seemed to understand more as they hung out with us outside the pocket dimension omega created. And once the mini omega started running around in radz, it started to "get it" as it started to get a soul. Same thing for lopporits!
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Mar 7, 2023 21:28
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