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MechaX posted:The Armin Line actually might be salvageable if the actor delivers it in the most sarcastic way possible Thanking Eren completely lines up with Armin's character, though.
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Mar 6, 2023 04:00
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They should add "what a man you are". I know it was a mistranslation but it's too drat funny and deserves to be canon.
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Mar 6, 2023 16:34
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Conspiratiorist posted:Thanking Eren completely lines up with Armin's character, though. I didn’t think Armin being like “gotta hand it to Eren for the genocide” lined up when the manga chapter first hit, and after watching the recent episode, I still don’t think Armin being like “gotta hand it to Eren for the genocide” fits with his character, like, at all But “what a man you are” is just hilarious especially given who says it
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Mar 6, 2023 17:01
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MechaX posted:I didn’t think Armin being like “gotta hand it to Eren for the genocide” lined up when the manga chapter first hit, and after watching the recent episode, I still don’t think Armin being like “gotta hand it to Eren for the genocide” fits with his character, like, at all In the most recent episode Armin literally tells Eren "please stop committing genocide for our sake." He'd already stated before that he sees Eren's actions as being for the benefit of his friends, and that he considers himself partly responsible due to failing to help find an alternate path for peace. Armin isn't "a good person" and so he doesn't see himself in a position to judge Eren for setting the world ablaze to save Paradis. It'd be tone-deaf for him to condemn Eren at the very end when they've forgiven Reiner and Annie.
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Mar 6, 2023 17:16
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The real genocide is the friends we made along the way
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Mar 6, 2023 17:19
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Armin straight up called the Rumbling a mistake. Armin thanked Eren for valuing his friends and family enough to be willing to fight the entire world for them, but still condemned him for actually going through with it.
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Mar 6, 2023 20:03
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I wanted to see Armin call Eren out for the rear end in a top hat he is and tell him he's a monster that he'll never forgive. But that's what *I* wanted, not someone who grew up with him, who was defended by him, who experienced the same pain and oppression as him, even though it didn't turn them into a genocidal lunatic. Armin is gonna have to live with the pain of Eren being a complicated figure in his personal life, who he'll never fully hate despite him doing the most monstrous thing ever. I don't think any of us know anyone who's done a genocide, but I imagine a lot of folks have family or loved ones who did astonishingly lovely things or held lovely beliefs that you absolutely can't abide. And you might never be able to reconcile your past feelings with the hurt they've caused, and that's just something you're gonna carry with you. The scene is rushed and messy as hell and deserving of criticism, but it's actually pretty in character for Armin to try to make peace as best he can, and acknowledge the contradicting emotions of gratitude for a friend who was literally willing to give the world to put them in a position of safety and privilege (another thing that will remind Armin of his hosed relationship on a daily basis), while condemning the actions he took to get there. And the Rumbling itself is shown to be, at best, a futile effort - Paradis is still destroyed, either by enemies made during the Rumbling, or from internal strife with the fascist government Eren helped prosper (as I believe Shadis predicted). Life only lasts as long as the mythic "heroes" can maintain their fragile, immorally obtained peace. That's why we see the bombs start to fall after Mikasa ages and dies (presumably, along with everybody else). poo poo doesn't really work out for anyone but the handful of people that Eren loved. Hey, that's one way to make someone feel special. Not that you're wrong for hating the ending, mind you. This is just the conclusion I've reached after turning it over in my head for two years, reading the bonus pages (which feel much more like AoT than the original ending), and revisiting the series. I read it as a tragic and hosed up ending with some sloppiness in the execution (mainly with regards to Historia). EDIT: Also seeing fans pitch endings like "Eren should've broken free and teamed up with everyone to fight Ymir" or "Eren was right and should have won and ruled as god king and something about Akatsuki no Requiem" made me realize that the ending could've been way worse than we got lmao Beefstew fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Mar 7, 2023 |
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Mar 7, 2023 01:26
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I will defend many parts of the ending, especially in the context of the extra pages, but yeah the handling of Historia is just really bad. Ends up as another character who gets to do a really cool thing once and then not allowed to do anything notable ever again. Also the fact that literally as soon as she accepts Ymir's feelings Ymir goes off to just die offscreen, and is replaced with a literal no-name no-face rando dude is pretty weird in retrospect.
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Mar 7, 2023 01:40
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Beefstew posted:EDIT: Also seeing fans pitch endings like "Eren should've broken free and teamed up with everyone to fight Ymir" or "Eren was right and should have won and ruled as god king and something about Akatsuki no Requiem" made me realize that the ending could've been way worse than we got lmao I stumbled across that Attack on Titan Requiem thing today while just googling random stuff and yeah, it's. A pretty aggressively surface level understanding of the characters. It's not great. I guess my main thing about the ending is, I really liked how it showed that Mikasa (and presumably most of the rest of the cast) got the long, happy lives they earned and that Eren wanted for them. It was weird that the catharsis of Mikasa's long happy life that ends peacefully, surrounded by her family is immediately punctured by the sight of Shinganshina being destroyed and then ruins of it presumably hundreds of years later and the implication that Source of All Living Matter or Eren or something still exists in some fashion and this kid is about to discover it. Like, Isayama, bro, if you're not planning a sequel that jumps off from that point, that's a lot to lay on us during the last two and a half pages of your story. And if it was just some "cycle of violence lol" stuff, I think that's kind of a weak note to end the story on. Also, yeah, same issue with Historia's handling as everybody. Pretty much everything else, I loved. Some of it with Armin and Eren and Ymir could've used another couple passes, maybe, but I got the gist of it and that's enough for me.
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Mar 7, 2023 02:01
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Beefstew posted:I wanted to see Armin call Eren out for the rear end in a top hat he is and tell him he's a monster that he'll never forgive. I think there's implied to be a bit more of a time gap before the bomb falls, from the growth of the tree and the changing technology. It's less "As soon as they're gone, it all falls apart" and more "people are still people." Armin's diplomatic efforts weren't pointless, or gone as soon as he was. It's just they're not enough because nothing is. The same history. The same mistakes. And at the end, we see someone going right where things started, more than 2,000 years ago... but maybe it won't be as bad. After all, it's an explorer and his dog, not a traumatized slave. Maybe he can do better. Maybe not. But people are still people, and tragedies come and go. All we can do is try to keep people from being lost in the forest.
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Mar 7, 2023 03:53
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 There’s the Dune model and there’s the Watchmen model, either you fix humanity forever with your atrocity or temporarily. Maybe Eren and Ozymandias needed to set their sights higher. Bigger atrocity for bigger peace!
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Mar 7, 2023 04:01
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Steve Yun posted:
I mean, Ozy went for rookie numbers, but Eren managed 80 percent. He didn't have much more room for escalation within his 13 years.
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Mar 7, 2023 04:27
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Yeah while Historia does get shafted, I would like to compliment the final arc for juggling so many characters and wrapping up dozens of their arcs in really cool ways.Steve Yun posted:
Yeah, it's hard to read the final pages without thinking of this. The series has always worn its Watchmen influences on its sleeve, especially since Erwin was modeled after Ozymandias. And I certainly wouldn't be surprised if Isayama had read Dune.
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Mar 7, 2023 05:59
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The more I think about it the more confident I am that Isayama backed off Eren being the baby daddy out of fear it'd justify the rumbling too much, and that doing so consequently leaves Historia hanging like a loose thread.
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Mar 7, 2023 05:59
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Conspiratiorist posted:The more I think about it the more confident I am that Isayama backed off Eren being the baby daddy out of fear it'd justify the rumbling too much, and that doing so consequently leaves Historia hanging like a loose thread. I think that's part of it (Eren surviving with his friends never forgiving him, forced to live with the weight of his sins is, I think, thematically stronger if it lands, but it could read the wrong way easily), but I also think there's another potential issue there. If Eren and Historia hooked up, then that undermines the Eren and Mikasa romance that a lot of people were invested in. And, cynical as it might sound, that's likely a larger risk in terms of sales. Mikasa moves a lot more merch than Historia, and having her be the "runner up" risks a larger fan backlash than what we got. (Ironically, with the bonus pages, this all meant Mikasa was the main character with the best conclusion to her arc, with her managing to finally reconcile her love for her imagined Eren with the real thing, letting her have a full and happy 'normal' life while still cherishing his memory.)
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Mar 7, 2023 06:28
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MJeff posted:Like, Isayama, bro, if you're not planning a sequel that jumps off from that point, that's a lot to lay on us during the last two and a half pages of your story. And if it was just some "cycle of violence lol" stuff, I think that's kind of a weak note to end the story on. "The world is a cruel place but it's also very beautiful." But also c'mon, Asian storytelling loves cyclical stories. Whether it's cycles within the story (Reiner to Eren to Gabi) or the ending of the whole thing.
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Mar 7, 2023 08:58
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Remember when some were convinced this was gonna be the ending https://youtu.be/OrQ0zZArUV8
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Mar 7, 2023 13:12
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hatty posted:Remember when some were convinced this was gonna be the ending A lot of people still are convinced that the anime will end this way. Anyways I made a shitpost years ago about how Paradis has donuts (which Annie doesn't recognize) and Marley has coffee (which the Scouts don't recognize), and that the union of donuts and coffee would bring peace. I stand by that as a good ending.
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Mar 7, 2023 13:39
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hatty posted:Remember when some were convinced this was gonna be the ending I still believe something along these lines makes more sense than what actually happened. In the end, I can’t reconcile, in-universe, the near-complete power the founding titan has with how the events played out in the end. The most straightforward ending involves the use of the FT to prevent any interference to the rumbling, and then some sort of epilogue that shows that killing everyone else in the world actually didn’t solve any problems. It feels like Isayama wrote himself into a corner, and therefore had to create many bizarre character moments to try to have it make sense (“I don’t want to take away their freedom”, erens incel speech, the armin thing, mikasa kissing the skull, and everything wrt ymir and the worm, everything post-Marley historia, etc.)
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Mar 7, 2023 20:55
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Eren was acting the entire time knowing they would stop him and that the way they stopped him would get rid of Titans forever. Why would he use the Founder to stop them from interfering?
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Mar 7, 2023 21:13
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I can live with the ending except the 80% thing. 80%????? Why did it even have to go above 5%?
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Mar 7, 2023 21:56
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80% of Marley would make sense. 80% of the world is dumb.
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Mar 7, 2023 21:59
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Have you considered Eren is just bad at math?
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Mar 7, 2023 22:01
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No Wave posted:I can live with the ending except the 80% thing. 80%????? Why did it even have to go above 5%? I think the idea was protecting Paradis, otherwise they would be wiped out of existence has soon has the rumbling was stopped. With 80% of the world destroyed, no payback is going to be possible My problem with the 80% is that, if that much of the world was stomped, it seems unlikely that enough of the planet ecosystem would survive for it still be habitable by humans, even in Paradis
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Mar 7, 2023 22:13
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Upside-down Americas are probably fine.
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Mar 7, 2023 22:33
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MJeff posted:Eren was acting the entire time knowing they would stop him and that the way they stopped him would get rid of Titans forever. Why would he use the Founder to stop them from interfering? If his goal was to get rid of Titans forever, why did he genocide the outside world to do so? Hell, most of the people outside probably WANT Titans to be gone forever. But I think the whole 'worm as an independent ancient entity thing' is very strange to begin with, and I don't know if there is a conclusion which makes that framing satisfying. Elias_Maluco posted:I think the idea was protecting Paradis, otherwise they would be wiped out of existence has soon has the rumbling was stopped. With 80% of the world destroyed, no payback is going to be possible This is some really shortsighted thinking on his part, unless it was already baked into his future sight that 80% was the best he could do.
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Mar 7, 2023 22:35
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It's heavily implied that Eren knew for a while that he would do the Rumbling, but the outcomes were not something he was aware of until he got full control of the Founder. Eren's future-sight only knew as much as his father knew, and this is stated by Zeke. He did not begin the Rumbling with the goal of ending the Titans (not that it would've guaranteed a safety for Paradis that would've satisfied him, especially since much of the bigotry against Subjects of Ymir was motivated political interests, such as the fossil fuels under the island). Facilitating an end to the curse was either a maneuver by Ymir or the result of an action (Mikasa resolving to kill the one whose affection she desired and free herself) that was as miraculous as it was inevitable (on account of deterministic poo poo). Eren has been unable to separate the idea of freedom from that of power, and the Rumbling is him exercising that, achieving Peak Eren and hoping to create a world without boundaries, or people who can take anything from him or his loved ones. That's the intrinsically selfish part of his plan, and the one he accomplishes, albeit with dire consequences. Armin questions why Eren did the Rumbling, even after Eren explained the Ymir thing, and why it was necessary to kill 80% of the world. The truth is, it wasn't. Eren responds that it was "something he really wanted to do." His fears, insecurities, and pain made him a slave to his pursuit of freedom (which would never properly end, hence the imagery the walls that once confined Eren moving with him). This also goes back to Kenny's whole philosophy of "folks needing to be drunk on something to live in this world." The chapter where Kenny says that was reprinted in the same issue that the final chapter premiered, and I don't think that's a coincidence.
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Mar 8, 2023 02:01
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serious gaylord posted:80% of Marley would make sense. 80% of the world is dumb. Prior to the anime, I would have questioned how in the gently caress the wall titans could even cross the globe that fast unless the world was just very, very densely populated even with WWI numbers. But now that the anime shows that the wall titans can move through water like loving torpedoes while also boiling a lot of the ocean during their travel, I guess that kind of makes a little more sense now.
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Mar 8, 2023 03:11
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No Wave posted:I can live with the ending except the 80% thing. 80%????? Why did it even have to go above 5%? This is somehow the most outrageous aspect to me. We're only shown them march through part of one country which was on the coast. Was Marley somehow situated antipodes of Paradise..?
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Mar 8, 2023 03:27
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had to double check I posted this in the right thread
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Mar 8, 2023 03:28
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We saw them step on fake Japan so they just walked really slowly over Marley. you know, they took it easy on the main country that hated them and went turbo on all the innocent ones
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Mar 8, 2023 03:31
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The titan group assigned to flattening Marley was set to auto-walk, the titan groups responsible for everything else just sprinted to flatten the rest of the world/forests and boil the ocean
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Mar 8, 2023 03:35
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"All of the Titans of the Walls will trample the Earth until there is nothing left," Eren says as Ymir is doing math on a blackboard to figure out how many extra titans she's gonna have to make for this poo poo to work.
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Mar 8, 2023 03:41
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Assuming the world of AoT is similar to Earth in this respect, most of the population would live near the coast, so it doesn't seem too far-fetched if the titans fanned out after making it to sea (which they must've done to an extent, as they're shown marching on Hizuru which is across the world from Paradis & Marley) and also had other groups follow up along rivers to destroy population centers deeper inland. It's also worth noting that Marley itself is massive. Considering it's historically vast wealth and infrastructure as the successor state of the Eldian Empire, it probably accounts for a significant fraction of the world population on its own.
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Mar 8, 2023 04:08
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MJeff posted:"All of the Titans of the Walls will trample the Earth until there is nothing left," Eren says as Ymir is doing math on a blackboard to figure out how many extra titans she's gonna have to make for this poo poo to work. Doesn’t she build them standing? Did we ever see her have to build a ramp to complete each one? Why doesn’t she build them laying down
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Mar 8, 2023 06:13
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You're asking the wrong questions. Why didn't she build herself a titan that would build more Titans for her?
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Mar 8, 2023 06:25
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*Hitch on the Joe Rogan podcast* "Okay, so maybe the Rumbling did happen, but c'mon! 80%?! That's way too high, how am I supposed to believe that?!"
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Mar 8, 2023 07:12
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Beefstew posted:It's heavily implied that Eren knew for a while that he would do the Rumbling, but the outcomes were not something he was aware of until he got full control of the Founder. Eren's future-sight only knew as much as his father knew, and this is stated by Zeke. He did not begin the Rumbling with the goal of ending the Titans (not that it would've guaranteed a safety for Paradis that would've satisfied him, especially since much of the bigotry against Subjects of Ymir was motivated political interests, such as the fossil fuels under the island). Facilitating an end to the curse was either a maneuver by Ymir or the result of an action (Mikasa resolving to kill the one whose affection she desired and free herself) that was as miraculous as it was inevitable (on account of deterministic poo poo). it's kind of muddy how deterministic the deterministic poo poo was, but yeah I'm not sure what Eren would've even done post-Rumbling. Being only truly happy when he was exercising his godlike power via genocide, and there being nobody left to genocide except Paradis, probably would not have boded well eventually.
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Mar 8, 2023 08:04
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Yinlock posted:it's kind of muddy how deterministic the deterministic poo poo was, but yeah I'm not sure what Eren would've even done post-Rumbling. Being only truly happy when he was exercising his godlike power via genocide, and there being nobody left to genocide except Paradis, probably would not have boded well eventually. Presumably died. He was getting close to the end of his stint as it was, so even if no one offers him I assume he would have died of old age. I definitely don't see him turning his eyes to others. Eren never showed a hint of hatred for the people of the island. He hated the titans, and then that hatred extended to the people who lived outside in part because theor existence ruined his idea of freedom, of a safe world where he could go anywhere and see anything. Once they are tomato paste i always just assumed he would wander off into the wilderness to die.
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Mar 8, 2023 09:02
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One thing I can't wrap my head around is how certain folks' problem with the ending is specifically that Eren dies. Like, literally any trajectory or any framing they could've gone with (Eren wins and dies of the curse, Eren loses and he's vindicated and self-sacrificing, or he's pure evil and put down) all end with him dying. As far back as season one, I saw the violent kid who could turn into a Titan saying "I will not stop until all Titans are dead," and I remember thinking "you're nuts if you think this character is still gonna be alive at the end."
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Mar 8, 2023 09:39
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