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Greatbacon posted:I have such a mastery of my native language that I get to gently caress with it on purpose constantly. Yeah and English is a fun one to gently caress up
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Mar 9, 2023 00:29
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thetoughestbean posted:No, I know that. I just find it weird to use it to mean English-speakers. I've been using anglo as opposed to franco since forever, as a both, it ain't that weird, and lmao at goons bein goons over this one
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Mar 9, 2023 01:17
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I've been using anglo as opposed to franco since forever, as a both, it ain't that weird, and lmao at goons bein goons over this one Nowadays I don't think most anglos would be opposed to Franco, they'd view him as a strong leader who got things done
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Mar 9, 2023 01:21
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I don't speak German well and whenever I find myself in Germany and can't get away with speaking English I use a very fast muffled 'de' as every article. It has served me so far
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Mar 9, 2023 08:41
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Whooping Crabs posted:If you das all the time they might tell you to die sehr gut 
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Mar 9, 2023 08:59
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was ist das? das ist ein numsegas!
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Mar 9, 2023 09:19
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And then we have the rare cases where the gender actually changes the meaning. Der Schild (m) is the shield as a knight would have. Das Schild (n) is a sign, as in "roadsign". I doubt that german is unique in this way. It's just usually hard to get to those examples, since you don't really notice such things in your mother tongue. e.g. don't ask the french for french examples, ask a foreigner who learned french as an adult.
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Mar 9, 2023 13:29
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Philosophy students who took continental theory probably know the le politique/la politique -distinction. I still don't know what that was really all about. Japanese is an interesting example in that the language actually is heavily gendered in the sense that some words and grammar points are also used for signaling the gender of the speaker, alongside age, social status etc. in a way that often gets lost in translation. I've been led to understand that this of course opens the doors to all kinds of creative language use by the LGBTQ community!
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Mar 9, 2023 13:47
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I do understand that there's basically entire genres of Japanese comedy built around the layers of politeness and deference to social status built into the language which are very difficult to translate, and involve things like speaking to a drunk hobo the way you'd speak to the Emperor or vice versa, and asking incredibly rude things in incredibly polite ways. Also comes to mind how you absolutely cannot trust Australians to learn this, because anything other than the most informal and vulgar forms of address would interpreted as insufferably pretentious to the point of immediately inviting a fistfight.
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Mar 9, 2023 13:53
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I do understand that there's basically entire genres of Japanese comedy built around the layers of politeness and deference to social status built into the language which are very difficult to translate, and involve things like speaking to a drunk hobo the way you'd speak to the Emperor or vice versa, and asking incredibly rude things in incredibly polite ways. This is an universal gag, though.
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Mar 9, 2023 14:20
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Well now that we're talking about politeness, let's look at 2nd person pronouns and how you/you came to supplant thou/thee. Thou/thee was the familiar and you the formal, but I guess out of politeness and not to offend anyone we just started using you altogether. Also, even though Shakespeare often used thou/thee, it was already was considered archaic by his time; he used it poetry's sake.
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Mar 9, 2023 16:05
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3D Megadoodoo posted:This is an universal gag, though. Indeed, but I think more that Japanese has very specific language for it which doesn't really have English equivalents, even if a lot of it is considered outdated (if legible) on the level of thou and thee. Like how you got particular honorifics for others and yourself which are well past use in casual modern language besides very specific circumstances. (mostly thinking 'aniki', thanks Yakuza and anime)
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Mar 9, 2023 16:22
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Indeed, but I think more that Japanese has very specific language for it which doesn't really have English equivalents, even if a lot of it is considered outdated (if legible) on the level of thou and thee. Like how you got particular honorifics for others and yourself which are well past use in casual modern language besides very specific circumstances. (mostly thinking 'aniki', thanks Yakuza and anime) Yeah, sites like Legends of Localization are full of translation notes that say "this sentence was translated perfectly accurately but in Japanese it was really rude" (or conversely, "this sentence is full of insults that were made up whole cloth by the translator, because the Japanese script was written in that tone but it wouldn't come across in a direct translation.")
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Mar 9, 2023 16:35
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Indeed, but I think more that Japanese has very specific language for it which doesn't really have English equivalents If they were equivalent, they'd be the same language. the holy poopacy posted:Yeah, sites like Legends of Localization are full of translation notes that say "this sentence was translated perfectly accurately but in Japanese it was really rude" (or conversely, "this sentence is full of insults that were made up whole cloth by the translator, because the Japanese script was written in that tone but it wouldn't come across in a direct translation.") This is called "being a poo poo translator".
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Mar 9, 2023 16:57
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3D Megadoodoo posted:If they were equivalent, they'd be the same language.
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Mar 9, 2023 17:09
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Nessus posted:how do you translate a language Certainly a question answerable in a forums post. (Don't I feel angry for paying 0€ to go to University!) Anyway if I told you, everyone would know and then translators would be out of a gig.
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Mar 9, 2023 17:13
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Sounds like that translation didn't go according to keikaku
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Mar 9, 2023 17:19
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3D Megadoodoo posted:If they were equivalent, they'd be the same language. actually they're a good translator op
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Mar 9, 2023 17:49
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3D Megadoodoo posted:Certainly a question answerable in a forums post. (Don't I feel angry for paying 0€ to go to University!) Anyway if I told you, everyone would know and then translators would be out of a gig.
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Mar 9, 2023 21:44
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caspergers posted:Well now that we're talking about politeness, let's look at 2nd person pronouns and how you/you came to supplant thou/thee. Thou/thee was the familiar and you the formal, but I guess out of politeness and not to offend anyone we just started using you altogether. Also, even though Shakespeare often used thou/thee, it was already was considered archaic by his time; he used it poetry's sake. If you go back a few months in this thread you can see a post I made about how people in Sweden came to regard both the informal and the formal 2nd person as too rude since everyone deserved to be addressed by their title at all times, leading to what linguists call The Swedish Title Mania from ca 1800-1940.
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Mar 9, 2023 22:49
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Offler posted:If you go back a few months in this thread you can see a post I made about how people in Sweden came to regard both the informal and the formal 2nd person as too rude since everyone deserved to be addressed by their title at all times, leading to what linguists call The Swedish Title Mania from ca 1800-1940. I remember this series of posts and it was both very informative and extraordinarily silly. The whole process by which a person acquired a title by connection was so insanely silly that it was genuinely hard to justify
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Mar 10, 2023 22:17
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Gaius Marius posted:You cannot both be said to be fluent and speak incorrectly constantly. Yes you can if you do it on purpose. Same with a lot of things, if you first understand how something is supposed to be done you can then refuse, and do something else because you feel like it, or are making a point, etc. doverhog has a new favorite as of 23:35 on Mar 10, 2023 |
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Mar 10, 2023 23:33
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doverhog posted:Yes you can if you do it on purpose. you can do anything on purpose, but it wont affect your fluency. itd be like a swede saying potato-noises to another swede, and none of them understan danish because theyre not fluent fluency just means you understand "anything" a native speaker would and "whatever" you say would be understood by a native speaker it doesnt mean "no accent", but i guess with time it will come to mean whatever that means. no human has ever spoken without an accent in the history of the world and none will either until the end of time.
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Mar 11, 2023 04:46
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I think you are just making up what fluent means. "Able to speak a language accurately, rapidly, and confidently – in a flowing way." Most native speakers of a language can't really do that.
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Mar 11, 2023 04:59
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doverhog posted:I think you are just making up what fluent means. At the end of the day you need some external evaluation whether from native speakers or perhaps a conlang's governing body that is just going by feel. You can be fluent in German but then speak it without following gendered articles and no one speaking German is going to agree you're speaking fluent German any more. At best you're at the forefront of a conlang that is German but without following gendered articles.
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Mar 11, 2023 05:25
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zedprime posted:There is an existential attack against all 4 of those qualities in that you'll never pin a linguist down to give quantitative measures of what accuracy or speed is required or what qualitative characters determine confidence and flow.
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Mar 11, 2023 05:29
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doverhog posted:I think you are just making up what fluent means. thats what im saying, nobody speaks perfect textbook any language, not natives not anybody. to be fluent in a language you just have to understand n% and n% of people understand you. thats all it means (i put n at 85 but if youre intense you can put it at 90 or 95. no two people in the world exists where it is 100)
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Mar 11, 2023 05:39
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zedprime posted:You can be fluent in German but then speak it without following gendered articles and no one speaking German is going to agree you're speaking fluent German any more. At best you're at the forefront of a conlang that is German but without following gendered articles. Yes that's what I meant, using perhaps the wrong meaning for fluent; "understanding" the language, rather than speaking it in the usual way. To be fluent, you should be able to use all the correct gendered articles, but then you might choose not to do so.  Of course spoken and written language are very different, almost different languages, so it is further complicated there. doverhog has a new favorite as of 06:03 on Mar 11, 2023 |
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Mar 11, 2023 05:57
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doverhog posted:To be fluent, you should be able to use all the correct gendered articles  there are no "correct" articles, there is only consensus (cf above with the ketchup) to me it seems like youre using "fluent" to mean "indistinguishable from a native speaker" which you can easily do only knowing 3 words
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Mar 11, 2023 06:21
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Carthag Tuek posted:
I think his point is that to speak it wrong deliberately and consistently, you have to be pretty good at the language to begin with. You have to know what is right in order to parody it with incorrect usage. That's different from being ignorant of the language and making mistakes by accident.
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Mar 11, 2023 06:24
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Well I know I enjoy pronouncing Worcestershire enunciating each syllable and I don't care if it should be wooster. Also victuals, no way am I calling that vittles. English you made your bed now lay in it.
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Mar 11, 2023 06:34
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så är det att vära en skitstövel
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Mar 11, 2023 07:32
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Kokeile joskus kaveri, voit yllättyä.
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Mar 11, 2023 07:43
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doverhog posted:Kokeile joskus kaveri, voit yllättyä. men fan ni* fatter ju allt, värför inte säga det för * alla
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Mar 11, 2023 07:59
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Offler posted:If you go back a few months in this thread you can see a post I made about how people in Sweden came to regard both the informal and the formal 2nd person as too rude since everyone deserved to be addressed by their title at all times, leading to what linguists call The Swedish Title Mania from ca 1800-1940. It's absolutely crazy how recent this was, just for a post-industrial society with standardized education. Not that it's a negative thing. I'd like to hear more recent language changes. Also, I feel the need to apologize. After you mentioned Sweden I realized I hadn't even mentioned English. It's alright, you might say I'm american and can't help the way I am.
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Mar 11, 2023 12:45
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Carthag Tuek posted:så är det att vära en skitstövel Tyø yur åtl hø sooten gåtrunen?
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Mar 12, 2023 00:01
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Zopotantor posted:Tyø yur åtl hø sooten gåtrunen? Jøv.. da ½ uspe vel
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Mar 12, 2023 01:12
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Recent posts reminded me of the time an English Professor put the emPHAsis on the wrong sylLABle to demonstrate to native English speakers a way of understanding how inflection matters. I'm probably loving up the lesson, but the way it was said has stuck in my head ever since.
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Mar 12, 2023 03:08
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Professor Ted Wassanasong?
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Mar 12, 2023 04:38
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bulletsponge13 posted:Recent posts reminded me of the time an English Professor put the emPHAsis on the wrong sylLABle to demonstrate to native English speakers a way of understanding how inflection matters. theres a latin expression we use in denmark for that: lecti lescul itorum, femi verum
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Mar 12, 2023 04:49
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