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It's just a PSR, it's fine!
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Mar 11, 2023 03:31
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I want to try using a Skinwalker in a game. Yes, even though it costs 5674 BV to field a Skinwalker Prime with a 3/4 Clan pilot with EI. (aside from the base unit having a 1.3x multiplier, the EI and interface cockpit apply the equivalent of -2/-2 to the pilot's skill for BV purposes.) Though I want to make sure I understand EI correctly. It says this in Interstellar Operations: quote:All to-hit modifiers imposed on an EI-equipped unit making weapon attacks through woods, jungle, or smoke hexes are reduced by 1 point (to a minimum modifier of +1) per hex. Older versions of EI (like the 1st Somerset Strikers book) had a different version of this rule that said through or into rather than simply through. However, this came out about 30 years ago. My question is, in modern BattleTech rules wording, does "through" count the hex the target is in (reducing the heavy woods the target is in to count as a +1 penalty) or does this mean that the modern version of this was nerfed and it has no effect on a heavy woods the target is standing in?
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Mar 11, 2023 04:13
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Any time I field a Skimwalker I'm just going to field it at whatever skill I have to for it to cost what it does on the record sheet.
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Mar 11, 2023 04:18
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BattleMaster posted:I want to try using a Skinwalker in a game. Yes, even though it costs 5674 BV to field a Skinwalker Prime with a 3/4 Clan pilot with EI. (aside from the base unit having a 1.3x multiplier, the EI and interface cockpit apply the equivalent of -2/-2 to the pilot's skill for BV purposes.) TW does differentiate between intervening hexes and the one a unit is standing in a few times, woods being one particular example. RAW it seems like it applies to intervening hexes and not the one you're firing into.
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Mar 11, 2023 04:24
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Our usual rules is that we buy everything at list BV and then give everyone a free 3/4 which means that a 4/5 skinwalker with the -2/-2 for EI and interface cockpit would cost "only" 4719. The bonuses it provides are substantial at least. EI is -1 piloting, ignores darkness, reduce woods penalties, aimed shots without a TC and better aimed shots with one, and a 1-hex active probe that can be used with the optional rule in TO for it aiding targeting into woods. The Interface Cockpit is -1/-1 skill, significant bonuses to pilot durability (though it ignores ammo explosion shock but not bump damage, which I'd expect the other way around because of the hardened suit), no gyro, and the ability to eject and fight as a power armor trooper. Ejecting as an armored trooper is not super useful but it's kind of badass. Defiance Industries posted:TW does differentiate between intervening hexes and the one a unit is standing in a few times, woods being one particular example. RAW it seems like it applies to intervening hexes and not the one you're firing into. That's exactly what I suspected which is a shame. And it's even an additional nerf on top of the original EI which did this: quote:To-hit modifiers for shooting through woods and smoke are reduced, but normal line-of-sight rules for these types of terrain still apply. Firing through or into any number of Light Woods hexes adds a single +1 modifier. The penalty for firing through or into Heavy Woods or smoke-filled hexes is reduced from +2 per hex to + 1 per hex.
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Mar 11, 2023 04:30
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Does anyone else think it's nuts that War of the Tripods is non-canon while Necromo Nightmare is canon? I would think that Republic commandos doing War of the Worlds cosplay with weird prototypes was more plausible than zombie viruses and rogue AIs.
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Mar 11, 2023 06:08
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I am still fairly new to the tabletop version. For say, 7000 BV, do you usually find its better to bring more cheaper mechs, or have one or two high BV mechs. Should I bring a Nightstar , or two crappier mechs?
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Mar 11, 2023 08:01
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Saint Celestine posted:I am still fairly new to the tabletop version. For say, 7000 BV, do you usually find its better to bring more cheaper mechs, or have one or two high BV mechs. You want around as many units as your opponent, but for BV totals like 7000 I think you can't really go wrong with something like two fast movers and two big bruisers. Use the fast movers to harass and intercept while the bruisers move into place and then have them backstab to punish the enemy if they focus on your big guys. A force like this with some arbitrary units I like in it would be something like my pick for the job, and it fits in the Nightstar:  (edit: This assumes you are okay with 4/5 pilots or you do the thing where you pay for 4/5 pilots and everyone gets a free upgrade to 3/4. Also, it doesn't pay attention to faction availability and uses an advanced Dark Age unit.) The Nightstar and Black Knight are the bruisers. They're slow, tough, and have good long range high damage weapons while not being helpless at close range. Get the Nightstar to a place where it has cover and good sight lines and park - it's okay to keep it still especially if it is in a good place and shooting at long range because it's not like it's fast enough to get good movement modifiers. The Black Knight can go out front because it's pretty suited to close combat. Ideally if the enemy engages the big guys you want the Black Knight to be attacked so that the Nightstar can keep getting good shots in. The fast movers are the Wraith and Agrotera that have jumps of 7 and 8 respectively, and mostly pulse lasers for shooting accurately. When they are moving across the map have them jump at close to their max range into woods if possible. You won't want to jump with them all the time though; they have high ground speed so if you can move the way you want with walking or running you should do that if you want to get better shots. Go for back attacks if you can get them, especially if they focus on your larger targets; it will be a good incentive for your foe to not ignore them. If you don't like those mechs or the actual game's BV is different then go ahead and pick similar things that you like. Or if you don't like that strategy then do whatever but I recommend around 4 units for around 7000 BV, or 3 if you want higher skills or Clan tech. BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Mar 11, 2023 |
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Mar 11, 2023 08:47
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I've never even heard of the Agrotera, but thats very helpful! Thanks. I came up with something like - Nightstar NSR-9J Thunderbolt TDR-7M Awesome AWS-9M Wraith TR1 Comes out to 6993 BV Only one jumper. I looked at master unit list, and everything is available to Comstar for 3067 except the Wraith. Not sure how picky people are about things like that. Edit: what program are you using to display your list? Saint Celestine fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Mar 11, 2023 |
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Mar 11, 2023 09:10
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That's a pretty solid list. I'd personally opt for something more agile then that Thunderbolt but I don't think you'll be disappointed in any case. If you like Comstar, the GRM-R-PR29 Grim Reaper is specifically a Comstar mech that is a little lighter but has 5/8 movement and similar weaponry and similar armor. Or if you want to use a Thunderbolt mini, the TDR-9SE has jump jets and a large pulse laser which is helps a lot with moving around, but it isn't Comstar affiliated. I used the Master Unit List force builder: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Force/TWBuild. MegaMek is probably better since it shows you the stats and lets you filter against them, but MUL is pretty fast to filter against BV and faction if you have the record sheets on hand. I like to browse the official record sheet PDFs because I can scan them very quickly for things I want. I don't think most players care about factions. I like to try to build thematic lists (I like Word of Blake and Magistracy of Canopus the best) but I don't think it will be a problem with most players. It's really more important to stick to BV and not do anything actually lovely like 100 Savannah Masters. And people will note that you can find a way to justify anyone using anything. Just because the faction doesn't have a deal for a company to make certain mechs for them doesn't mean you can't buy a one-off for a special purpose, or salvage them from the battlefield, or trade for them. BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Mar 11, 2023 |
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Mar 11, 2023 09:29
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There was Wraith chat in the thread not long ago but I’d just like to mention that the Agrotera is a sicknasty robot. It’s just a tad slower than the Wraith on the ground, but it’s even better when bouncing around. I hope it gets an updated 3D-based art model for a miniature sooner than later!
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Mar 11, 2023 09:39
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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:There was Wraith chat in the thread not long ago but I’d just like to mention that the Agrotera is a sicknasty robot. It’s just a tad slower than the Wraith on the ground, but it’s even better when bouncing around. I once played in a campaign where one of the players had a TR2 Wraith (the one with an ERPPC in place of the large pulse laser) and claimed it was better because you could jump somewhere and snipe with it. I didn't argue with him because, like, why. But he's still wrong because the TR1 Wraith is one of the most fearsome mechs in the game and the TR2 ruins it. However, the Agrotera is kind of like the TR2 done right and it's definitely second to the Wraith on my list of first picks. It has an ERPPC but better (because of the AES that gives it -1) and it doesn't compromise on the back stabbing pulse lasers. Plus it has TAG for calling in homing Arrow IV missiles from third best mech, the UM-AIV Urbanmech. Or even just semiguided LRMs, which are also pretty brutal. What stops it from better is the Wraith's combination of better ground speed, better kicks, better armor, lower BV, and not using advanced tech that isn't always allowed in games. BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Mar 11, 2023 |
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Mar 11, 2023 09:49
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Saint Celestine posted:I've never even heard of the Agrotera, but thats very helpful! Thanks. I’d say it’s worth it to grab a second jumper. Try the Phoenix Hawk PXH-3PL, it’s cheaper than your Thunderbolt and will contribute more damage as well thanks to a Targeting Computer to go with its Wraith-like loadout. Just mentioned the 3PL Phoenix Hawk above.
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Mar 11, 2023 10:00
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Oh yeah, the PXH-3PL is pretty insane. Not sure how it manages to have such a low BV considering most mechs with targeting computers have highly-inflated BVs. edit: I'll throw in Preta Luminos since we're talking about screeners/harassers/backstabbers. It's not as good as the others we've talked about but I've always had it perform well, though as a Celestial-series Omnimech it's so painfully Word of Blake that you may actually get raised eyebrows if you use it in a mixed force BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Mar 11, 2023 |
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Mar 11, 2023 10:06
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The Revenant is confusing me. Lore blurbs say it's a drone/robotic mech and unmanned, but the record sheet for the UMB-1A has no mention of it being a drone and the head systems look like a normal mech's. The rest of the variants all have a Drone OS in the head.
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Mar 12, 2023 02:13
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Floppychop posted:The Revenant is confusing me. Lore blurbs say it's a drone/robotic mech and unmanned, but the record sheet for the UMB-1A has no mention of it being a drone and the head systems look like a normal mech's. The rest of the variants all have a Drone OS in the head. That's the very first Revenant, made by Word of Blake as a fully-robotic mech, controlled autonomously by its own on-board computer contained in a special cockpit rather than controlled remotely like the other Republic versions (the Drone OS seen in the Republic versions is for remote-control mechs.) The rules for robotic mechs are in Jihad: Final Reckoning. Here are the construction rules:  The official sheets show the cockpit as a "Robotic Cockpit": 
BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Mar 12, 2023 |
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Mar 12, 2023 02:21
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Ok, cool. Looks like Jihad: Final Reckoning is only available as a pdf anymore so I'll have to snag that from Catalyst. I was digging through the books I have and couldn't find anything about robotic pilots, just drones. So knowing where to look will help a ton.
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Mar 12, 2023 02:53
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You'd still need the life support systems, how else are you gonna keep the electronics cool?
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Mar 12, 2023 03:00
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Floppychop posted:Ok, cool. Looks like Jihad: Final Reckoning is only available as a pdf anymore so I'll have to snag that from Catalyst. I was digging through the books I have and couldn't find anything about robotic pilots, just drones. So knowing where to look will help a ton. Interstellar Operations or the newer Interstellar Operations: Alternate Eras book has just the rules for it and other wacky stuff from various sourcebooks if you're not interested in the Jihad lore specifically, but Final Reckoning imo was as good an ending as they could possibly derive from the mess of the Jihad. (And I say that as someone who likes Word of Blake and the bizarre poo poo they do a lot)
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Mar 12, 2023 03:13
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We got through a game today. We did the Final Exam scenario with one of the suggested lance variants from the book It took almost 6 hours to wrap up. I was on the ropes for a good amount of it but then I got a lucky crit on his thunderbolts SRM ammo. Melee seems real good and far more reliable than shooting if we're reading and understanding right. Kicking is (pilot skill)-2 so if your PS was 5 you would hit on 3+ right?
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Mar 12, 2023 05:10
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You also have to factor in movement, both yours and theirs.
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Mar 12, 2023 05:36
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The biggest issue with physical attacks in my opinion are the limited hit location tables. You can't snipe someone's head with a standard kick and ammo is rarely stored in the legs. Punches are more likely to land on something crucial, but do much less damage.
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Mar 12, 2023 05:49
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Kicks are essentially free damage that have the same ToHit bonus as pulse lasers and a legged enemy is a significantly less dangerous enemy. There is no almost opportunity cost for kicking unless your 'Mech is already so crippled it can't pass a piloting test.
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Mar 12, 2023 05:57
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Kicks can be targeted against a specific leg by kicking in the left side and right side arc. In my last game my SO won because after some good ranged hits against my last unit's leg he kicked it off with his last unit. (We were playing a very small 3000 BV game, I have a much higher win rate against him in larger games because I'm better with larger forces and heavier units) Len posted:Melee seems real good and far more reliable than shooting if we're reading and understanding right. Kicking is (pilot skill)-2 so if your PS was 5 you would hit on 3+ right? Refer to the rulebook for more specifics, but most things that apply to ranged attacks also apply to the to-hit modifiers of melee attacks. Things that do: -Attacker movement -Target movement -Target terrain -Damage to relevant actuators -Prone and/or immobile target (always kick them when they're down) -Being prone (a small number of attack types like punching allow use while prone) -Target type (infantry and BA have additional modifiers relevant to ranged and melee attacks against them) -Various advanced rules like some battlefield conditions -Things that don't: -Heat -Multiple targets (for instance, punches allow two attacks against two targets with no penalty for splitting) -Range (kind of obvious but yeah) -Gyro damage (however, it will make it more difficult to succeed on piloting skill checks for related things like missing a kick, getting hit by a kick, etc.) -Other things that only specify that they make piloting skill checks harder (like small cockpits) BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Mar 12, 2023 |
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Mar 12, 2023 06:00
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I just realized if I downgrade to the regular Phoenix Hawk I can bring a King Crab KGC-000b. Never used one before, any good?
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Mar 12, 2023 06:23
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Saint Celestine posted:I just realized if I downgrade to the regular Phoenix Hawk I can bring a King Crab KGC-000b. So what, like this?  Firstly, NICE Secondly, hell yeah I'd take that. The King Crab won't have the easiest time getting into range, but it can go after the enemy's slow targets and take them apart. As it goes ahead it should take a lot of pressure off of the Nightstar by drawing fire or creating a bubble of death that the enemy doesn't want to risk. If you can get the Nightstar to a good place it will probably be able to do a ton of damage while taking very little. BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Mar 12, 2023 |
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Mar 12, 2023 06:30
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BattleMaster posted:So what, like this? Yeah that. I think its just a regular paper map, so I was worried about the KGC getting shot up without being able to shoot back. Also, I haven't done many matches, whats considered poor sportsmanship? If I can make a WH40k analogy, I don't want to bring like a tournament list to a casual game. If I bring 4 gauss rifles in a 7k game, is that bad \/ Thanks! Saint Celestine fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Mar 12, 2023 |
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Mar 12, 2023 06:39
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Just don't bring tons and tons of units, like several dozen Savannah Masters or a bunch of cheap infantry squads that just sit in a corner and sink initiative the whole game. While there are some options that are usually better than others it's pretty well assumed that people are going to take reasonably effective units and for the most part the BV system makes you pay a reasonable cost for them. And if anything, if someone complains about units it's probably going to be more focused at jumpy pulsy units like that Wraith and Phoenix Hawk than any number of gauss rifles, unless you get an early decapitation that causes a rage quit.
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Mar 12, 2023 07:11
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Man, just picked up Shattered Fortress and read through it, and I kept seeing instances of 'The Republic was doing really well until their RISC equipment exploded', so I checked Interstellar Operations on the rules. How... just... how? Why? Who? It's no wonder the Republic got their asses kicked when so much of their fancy new gear has such a catastrophic failure rate, like the Hyper Laser that explodes violently 8% of the time whenever the trigger is pulled, or the Emergency Coolant System that has a MASC-like failure roll that the pilot can not toggle off, meaning you're stuck with a Coolant System that ironically fails and cripples your 'Mech if you're too hot for too long. Even during the wild years of the Jihad, most experimental technology limited the disadvantage of failure to 'This poo poo stops working'. RISC Technology meanwhile might as well be ticking bombs.
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Mar 12, 2023 16:08
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Rorahusky posted:Even during the wild years of the Jihad, most experimental technology limited the disadvantage of failure to 'This poo poo stops working'. RISC Technology meanwhile might as well be ticking bombs. Whoever came up with the name had an apt backronym.
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Mar 12, 2023 16:19
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Rorahusky posted:Man, just picked up Shattered Fortress and read through it, and I kept seeing instances of 'The Republic was doing really well until their RISC equipment exploded', so I checked Interstellar Operations on the rules. Somebody was reading Arthur C. Clarke's "Superiority"
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Mar 12, 2023 16:37
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BattleMaster posted:unless you get an early decapitation that causes a rage quit. This is why I like games with different objectives (recon, breakthrough, assassination, etc) because the decapitee can still win. It makes boxcars funny instead of awkward. Edit also to the original question, losing gracefully to a superior opponent is also good sportsmanship, so I wouldn't feel too bad about bringing a borderline groggy force. Your opponent has some responsibility to be tactful too. I've been on the receiving end of some bullshit but never felt bad about it bc my opponent was nice about it. Being kind, especially if you're winning real hard, turns "cheap OP win" into "valuable learning experience." Marx Headroom fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Mar 12, 2023 |
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Mar 12, 2023 17:47
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PoptartsNinja posted:Kicks are essentially free damage that have the same ToHit bonus as pulse lasers and a legged enemy is a significantly less dangerous enemy. There is no almost opportunity cost for kicking unless your 'Mech is already so crippled it can't pass a piloting test. Failed kicks requiring a PSR on (an average of) 5+ can and will bite you at exactly the worst time, though. Generally I try to avoid taking a flyer on a low-probability kick if succeeding the kick is less likely than failing the PSR if you miss (i.e. kicking on a 10+ and taking the PSR on a 5+ where both are 1/6 chance).
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Mar 12, 2023 18:59
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Rorahusky posted:How... just... how? Why? Who? Owlbear Camus posted:Whoever came up with the name had an apt backronym. So from what I am told (this is friend of a friend of a friend stuff so the message may be garbled) RISC equipment was originally going to be part of an in-universe ramp up of all factions to a new level of game balance, where the RISC-y explodey parts of the equipment would be eliminated. Notice how the RISC Hyper Laser does exactly twice the damage and makes twice the heat of a cERLL? That's because this "NewTech" would sink twice the amount of heat and take half the amount of damage from the weapon, effectively rendering it back to cERLL numbers--except older tech targets and older tech chassis, due to being obsolete, would take the full damage from getting it or full heat from using it. This property would apply to a significant list of weapons from...maybe not even Total Warfare but possibly just the Clan Invasion box set, effectively resetting everyone back to a smaller, easier-to-manage & remember list of weapons that everyone can carry. Apparently the idea to nuke everything in the game system and restart with weapon parity didn't work out for some reason. Also, It looks like Interstellar Ops had other equipment that was experimental on the metagame level, like the Supercooled Myomer that (without the RISC-y part) would have just helped simplify heat tracking without having to account for walking or running, or the Pulse Module that legit makes isLLs/isERMLs/isERLLs great skirmishing weapons (if they weren't so explodey). The APDS anti-missile system seems like a legitimately good piece of equipment though. Honestly given the big hodgepodge of mixed IS and Clan tech that's part of the 3152 meta, I'd love to see fixed (read: they don't blow up) Pulse Moduled Lasers supercede X-Pulse Lasers and become a drop-in upgrade for IS units that don't have the resources to produce or rebuild equipment from the ground up as Mixed tech
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Mar 12, 2023 19:13
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I don't think it has its roots in anything related to BT, it started out as special ability cards for Clix that gave bonuses in exchange for a downside. When they were brought over, they tried to retain that element.
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Mar 12, 2023 19:37
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CGL could have just...not retained that element if they didn't want to? Or made it into something that made sense to integrate into the game, instead of yet another one-off loosely tacked on to the long, long list of optional equipment that's out there in splatbooks (and sometimes the book with Land Air 'Mechs in it). Which brings me to another issue I think has been holding BT a little bit back in the past couple of decades or so (not counting the entire Unseen fiasco, glad that's over). The problem comes in two parts: 1.) Ed from Green Bay is sick and tired of remembering which of the 'Mechs he's playing has the Medium Variable-speed Pulse Laser and which of them has the Medium Re-engineered Laser (try saying that five times fast!), and then having to look up which rules they used (-1 or -3/-2/-1 to hit?) and whether or not they did normal damage or 4.5 damage to Reflective Armor. 2.) Bob from Reading, Pennsylvania can't pronounce Měngqín or Chalchiuhtotolin or even Götterdämmerung, so he's simply not going to play with them. The point here is that materiel for the current setting in 3152 sucks rear end because it is for huge turbonerds, and that's directly antithetical to the original "beer-and-pretzels boardgame" idea that BattleTech was originally based on. It's really too far into historical wargaming territory and sure, one could say that "you don't have to play with it", but from a business standpoint it makes a lot more sense to have the "current" content be somewhat higher-volume content instead of one of the worst-performing, and very few folks are going to want to catch up and try the content the game devs make if they're going to be hard to enjoy like that. From a higher-up perspective: With everyone spread out all over in different eras and tech levels, it becomes difficult for the developers to hit the "sweet spot" for products to keep up the (lucky) growth from the renewed interest that's been coming in recently. Strobe posted:Failed kicks requiring a PSR on (an average of) 5+ can and will bite you at exactly the worst time, though. Generally I try to avoid taking a flyer on a low-probability kick if succeeding the kick is less likely than failing the PSR if you miss (i.e. kicking on a 10+ and taking the PSR on a 5+ where both are 1/6 chance).
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Mar 12, 2023 20:04
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I call it "Git 'er dun 'er wrong"
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Mar 12, 2023 20:06
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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:The point here is that materiel for the current setting in 3152 sucks rear end because it is for huge turbonerds, and that's directly antithetical to the original "beer-and-pretzels boardgame" idea that BattleTech was originally based on. It's really too far into historical wargaming territory and sure, one could say that "you don't have to play with it", but from a business standpoint it makes a lot more sense to have the "current" content be somewhat higher-volume content instead of one of the worst-performing, and very few folks are going to want to catch up and try the content the game devs make if they're going to be hard to enjoy like that. Hard disagree for a few reasons. Firstly I don't think it's fair to ever call Battletecha beer-and-pretzels game. It's always been a simulationist nightmare, even in 3025 you had to roll for each of your 20 SRM hits individually or remember the difference between a hip, upper leg, lower leg or foot critical, not to mention the unique ways they can stack. If you want to play walking tankbots with friends with the TV on and shoot the poo poo there's a game for that, it's not introtech it's Alpha Strike. Secondly, having a ton of gear available to everyone un-solves the equation in a way that just isn't feasible with simple rules. When everyone has just the basic weapons on hand your design epitomizes slowly and surely towards a Crab or whatever. There's still room for some personal interpretation, for sure, but I can tell you the value of a battlemech build in 3025 way, way more easily when it's just "how many large lasers and heat sinks and what speed does it move at" compared to some of the truly weird Dark Age designs. The Quasimodo has 3 MVSPLs, TSM and a Blue Shield. How does that compare to a Scarecrow mounting a few Clan ERMLs and a Chameleon system? There's a tooooon more playroom and the game is way richer for it.
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Mar 12, 2023 20:28
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I wish they were more okay with creating things that were actual upgrades and letting you pay a higher BV cost for them instead of sidegrades or things with catastrophic failure modes.
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Mar 12, 2023 20:40
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| # ? Jun 5, 2024 07:09 |
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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:directly antithetical to the original "beer-and-pretzels boardgame" idea that BattleTech was originally based on.
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Mar 12, 2023 20:49
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