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LLSix posted:So any reasonable person would try every non-fatal method of extracting a cure first. 
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Mar 13, 2023 04:28
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Lol a disappointing episode full of dumb people doing dumb things is about the most perfect ending this show could have had.
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Mar 13, 2023 04:29
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WoodrowSkillson posted:amen, regardless of the game and if there is more detail there or something, with what the show presented, Joel is right. Absolutely. My only conclusion from this episode is that Joel was totally justified in killing all those guys (except the one who was trying to surrender, I guess). It just seemed too rushed for a finale; a climactic gun rampage shouldn't be shortened with a musical montage.
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Mar 13, 2023 04:34
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Marlene really sucks. Presumably she dropped off Ellie with fedra which sure for most people that'd be an okay option since she'd be pretty safe there but her main goal in life is to get rid of fedra. And she's really bad at that. A middle aged Karen accomplished what she couldn't in what, like a week or two.
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Mar 13, 2023 04:48
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Their explanation for a cure sounds about as reasonable as the explanation for the disease in the first place. The entire concept is medically unsound top to bottom, so yeah sure, maybe their hypothesis is true, it’s not any crazier than anything else going on. What is crazy is going straight to killing her instead of doing some non-lethal experiments first. Although I guess they’ve had time to devise their hypothesis based on the info Marlene already had about Ellie and the circumstances of her birth. But saying the imaginary cure would never work for the imaginary disease seems like a weird criticism.
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Mar 13, 2023 04:52
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The Fireflies were the most unlikable and clueless anti-government force I've seen since the January 6 riot. I enjoyed the show a lot but this episode has really put me in the mood to nitpick it.
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Mar 13, 2023 04:57
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wizardofloneliness posted:Their explanation for a cure sounds about as reasonable as the explanation for the disease in the first place. The entire concept is medically unsound top to bottom, so yeah sure, maybe their hypothesis is true, it’s not any crazier than anything else going on. What is crazy is going straight to killing her instead of doing some non-lethal experiments first. Although I guess they’ve had time to devise their hypothesis based on the info Marlene already had about Ellie and the circumstances of her birth. But saying the imaginary cure would never work for the imaginary disease seems like a weird criticism. The argument about whether or not the cure would have worked is pointless because if God came down with Sarah and Tess’ ghosts and said “it will 100% work, do what ya gotta do,” Joel would do exactly the same thing.
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Mar 13, 2023 04:57
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navyjack posted:The argument about whether or not the cure would have worked is pointless because if God came down with Sarah and Tess’ ghosts and said “it will 100% work, do what ya gotta do,” Joel would do exactly the same thing. Also even if it worked, the Fireflies tasked with transporting it would slip on a banana peel straight into the KC sinkhole somehow
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Mar 13, 2023 05:10
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navyjack posted:The argument about whether or not the cure would have worked is pointless because if God came down with Sarah and Tess’ ghosts and said “it will 100% work, do what ya gotta do,” Joel would do exactly the same thing. He definitely would, which is why I’ve always found a lot of the back-and-forth about that to be beside the point. Both Joel and the viewers are not given enough information to decide if their hypothesis is actually really strong or a bunch of bullshit, but to Joel it doesn’t matter at all. Although I think making their idea for a cure obviously wrong completely undercuts any tension from Joel’s decision and Ellie’s reaction. Also, they really should have made another episode, this was way too perfunctory for a finale.
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Mar 13, 2023 05:12
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The really dumb thing to me was that after Marlene gives an entire speech about how incomprehensibly badass she thinks Joel is and how he's worth at least 5 or her best men or more, after which he openly tells her that he's not going to go along with her plan and he's gonna take Ellie back by force ("i have no other choice" "I DO "), so Marlene, instead of just keeping Joel handcuffed and under guard, or knocked out, she sends him away with two guards and a weapon and... what? What did she think was going to happen? Just hope they finish the surgery before Joel fights his way back through the base? Or did she hope that when he tried to fight back, they would be able to take him down? That's an awfully bold loving bet to be risking the future of all humanity on.I know the answer is that I just need to get all the way off the writer's back about this one and it's just because it was a video game and they need a shootymans sequence but still. Honestly I woulda preferred it if Marlene just told her guys to take him out back and shoot him. She's willing to kill her best friend's little girl to save the world, this is a guy that is an active threat to that. I'd believe she can justify that death.
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Mar 13, 2023 05:36
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XboxPants posted:I know the answer is that I just need to get all the way off the writer's back about this one and it's just because it was a video game and they need a shootymans sequence but still. Honestly I woulda preferred it if Marlene just told her guys to take him out back and shoot him. She's willing to kill her best friend's little girl to save the world, this is a guy that is an active threat to that. I'd believe she can justify that death. It was either in some interviews or from audio logs in the game, but the reason Marlene doesn't want to kill Joel is because he's the only other person that cares about Ellie as much as she does. Basically no one else there cares if Ellie dies saving the world, and she really wants someone else to honor and understand her burden of what is being sacrificed to create a cure.
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Mar 13, 2023 05:45
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Finale didn’t leave me wanting more or make me care about what happens next. A shame, the season and the show had a lot of high points but it just didn’t work for me overall on almost any level other than performances. Will probably still check out s2 anyway.
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Mar 13, 2023 05:47
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Arguing over whether the fireflies "cure surgery" was medically sound or a reasonable approach misses the main point of the show so so much it's really funny to see people dying on this hill. First, the world is desperate, scared, and woefully unprepared to deal with this at this point, of course no plan to produce a cure is going to be perfect, how many specialists in this field are even left? People are in darkness violently clawing towards the light. But also, who cares. Even if they had the most enlightened plan, a 100% fool proof way to make a cure at the cost of Ellie's life, Joel still would have saved her. That's the point. Joel didn't do any arithmetic in his head about whether it was a sound plan to create a cure, he just wanted to protect her, and that is what the story is about. I agree the pacing felt odd at times. I'm not sure saying "they should have made this a standard 40 minute, ten episode ordeal" is the response. Free yourself from the shackles of normalization and let a story be told in whatever format tells it best. Though I do agree there was room for improvement in this last episode.
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Mar 13, 2023 05:48
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fullroundaction posted:Finale didn’t leave me wanting more or make me care about what happens next. A shame, the season and the show had a lot of high points but it just didn’t work for me overall on almost any level other than performances. It's not supposed to leave you wanting more. The ending is meant to tell a complete story, it wasn't written to be a teaser for the next season.
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Mar 13, 2023 05:52
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Kwolok posted:It's not supposed to leave you wanting more. The ending is meant to tell a complete story, it wasn't written to be a teaser for the next season. This. It was years before they decided there would be another story. For now, what happens? They go back to Jackson and live an idyllic life based on Joel's lie. That's it.
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Mar 13, 2023 05:55
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Kwolok posted:It's not supposed to leave you wanting more. The ending is meant to tell a complete story, it wasn't written to be a teaser for the next season. Okay well in that case I feel very unsatisfied with the way this self contained story concluded / stopped abruptly.
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Mar 13, 2023 05:56
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Like people writing "I wish they would have made it a standard tv show length with standard episode lengths" or "this didn't have me hyped for the next season" feel like terminally serialized-tv-brained individuals. The last of us has flaws, it may be the best video game adaption to date but it still of course has flaws. But it set out to tell a story about humanity in an apocalypse by focusing intently on a few key characters, and I'd say it accomplished it quite well.fullroundaction posted:Okay well in that case I feel very unsatisfied with the way this self contained story concluded / stopped abruptly. I'm curious to hear why. It was certainly abrupt, that is largely the point but I'm curious what you would have preferred.
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Mar 13, 2023 05:57
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fullroundaction posted:Okay well in that case I feel very unsatisfied with the way this self contained story concluded / stopped abruptly. Imagine what this exact ending must've felt like in videogame form a decade ago. So many gamers signed up for their unambiguous zombie shooter power fantasy only to have the game end on THAT. The hot takes at the time were wild. It was brilliant!
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Mar 13, 2023 06:02
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qbert posted:Imagine what this exact ending must've felt like in videogame form a decade ago. And we get to see it happening again live!
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Mar 13, 2023 06:06
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qbert posted:It was either in some interviews or from audio logs in the game, but the reason Marlene doesn't want to kill Joel is because he's the only other person that cares about Ellie as much as she does. Basically no one else there cares if Ellie dies saving the world, and she really wants someone else to honor and understand her burden of what is being sacrificed to create a cure. That would have been a cool thing to include. I had some issues like everyone with this episode, but generally I feel it delivered. I certainly wouldn't say I was disappointed. Maybe it was disappointing compared to the very highest heights of the show, but it was about on average. That is to say, it's a powerful ending that filled my heart with neutrality.
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Mar 13, 2023 06:12
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Kwolok posted:And we get to see it happening again live! It's really wild to see the exact same discourse playing out again ten years later with a new audience. I personally have always loved the ending itself - the whole scene on the overlook, the "okay" and the smash to credits - not to say it's on THAT level, but it but I'm glad that the show has ensured the debate about the decision will rage for another ten years at least. I'm not sure about the rest of the episode, it was good, but I'd need to watch it again at some point. The action sequence was a little weird, but I don't know if 20 minutes of Joel killing a few dozen guys would be better. Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 06:15
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A short action sequence is best. Imo they should have had it be less armed men too. Sure Joel has a ton of combat experience but he killed a lot of people without taking much more than a scratch. In a video game that's fine but the point of the sequence isn't too see Joel as a terminator badass but to just show us what he's capable of. Kill three guards, the surgeon, and Marlene. Done and done. The actual action of it is meaningless in contrast to what it's meant to represent.
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Mar 13, 2023 06:29
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navyjack posted:The argument about whether or not the cure would have worked is pointless because if God came down with Sarah and Tess’ ghosts and said “it will 100% work, do what ya gotta do,” Joel would do exactly the same thing. There’s one person who probably could’ve talked Joel into letting Ellie die, and that’s Ellie. Unfortunately the Fireflies didn’t bother to discuss the matter with her and instead felt compelled to put her under and scoop out her brain the minute she arrived, so I guess we’ll never know for sure.
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Mar 13, 2023 06:34
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General Dog posted:There’s one person who probably could’ve talked Joel into letting Ellie die, and that’s Ellie. Unfortunately the Fireflies didn’t bother to discuss the matter with her and instead felt compelled to put her under and scoop out her brain the minute she arrived, so I guess we’ll never know for sure. Do you really think the Fireflies wouldn't have tried to make a cure from her brain if she said "no"? People keep complaining about the Fireflies not asking Ellie, but like, not only do they not care what she thinks, it works out much better for them to not know what she thinks and imagine her wishes (perfectly align with theirs) after she's dead. Edit: But at the same time I feel like Druckmann never intended for all of the "Joel did nothing wrong" rationalizations that arose from the ending and probably wished he could've made Ellie's intentions clearer to take away those arguments, but then he wouldn't have been able to end the game on THE BIG LIE, which was what he was always trying to setup. qbert fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 06:36
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qbert posted:Do you really think the Fireflies wouldn't have tried to make a cure from her brain if she said "no"? People keep complaining about the Fireflies not asking Ellie, but like, not only do they not care what she thinks, it works out much better for them to not know what she thinks and imagine her wishes (perfectly align with theirs) after she's dead. crosspostin' myself to agree: Kaedric posted:I think a lot of people do that silly "if every person acted perfectly logically and with 100% information this never would have happened!! This situation is so contrived!" thing, but they're actually wrong.
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Mar 13, 2023 06:48
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qbert posted:Do you really think the Fireflies wouldn't have tried to make a cure from her brain if she said "no"? People keep complaining about the Fireflies not asking Ellie, but like, not only do they not care what she thinks, it works out much better for them to not know what she thinks and imagine her wishes (perfectly align with theirs) after she's dead. Yeah I think people are being obtuse. You risked so much to get a cure harboring child to the last known place that just maybe has the tech and know how to create a cure. You believe you are sacrificing her in order to save the whole world. In no universe would they have ever risked any of that. Telling Joel was a mistake but it was because Marlene had some level of connection/trust with him that made her not able to just shoot him where he stood. It was a miscalculation. But in no way would they have ever asked Ellie because they obviously do not give a poo poo if she consents or not.
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Mar 13, 2023 06:49
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qbert posted:Edit: But at the same time I feel like Druckmann never intended for all of the "Joel did nothing wrong" rationalizations that arose from the ending and probably wished he could've made Ellie's intentions clearer to take away those arguments, but then he wouldn't have been able to end the game on THE BIG LIE, which was what he was always trying to setup. Yeah and that’s the original sin the writers have to deal with going forward in the games and in the show- this terrible thing that Joel did, based on the concrete facts of the situation, was rescuing Ellie from people who- altruistic as their intentions may have been- were preparing to murder her.
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Mar 13, 2023 06:51
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Kwolok posted:A short action sequence is best. Imo they should have had it be less armed men too. Sure Joel has a ton of combat experience but he killed a lot of people without taking much more than a scratch. In a video game that's fine but the point of the sequence isn't too see Joel as a terminator badass but to just show us what he's capable of. Kill three guards, the surgeon, and Marlene. Done and done. The actual action of it is meaningless in contrast to what it's meant to represent. I'm torn on this because Joel going full terminator against impossible odds is kind of important to the emotional payoff in the game. What I think the TV episode was missing was the poignancy of when you walk back out again carrying her through the carnage after it's over. It's a striking representation of the fact Joel destroyed everything they had been fighting for in order to rescue her.
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Mar 13, 2023 06:56
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Jarmak posted:I'm torn on this because Joel going full terminator against impossible odds is kind of important to the emotional payoff in the game. What I think the TV episode was missing was the poignancy of when you walk back out again carrying her through the carnage after it's over. It's a striking representation of the fact Joel destroyed everything they had been fighting for in order to rescue her. You still destroy everything they had been fighting for if you dismantle the fireflies at the hospital, regardless of how many nameless foot soldiers you kill. Symbolically killing the doctor and Marlene are all you need to accomplish that. Adding in a couple soldiers and killing five people is still pretty hardcore. Killing a small army just feels too video gamey for me.
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Mar 13, 2023 07:05
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lmao twice this week I said, “well there is one chapter left of the game and I cant imagine theyre gonna have Joel hero his way through a firefight like the game” and welp It’s been a very long time since I played the original (I also never got to play the sequel), but I could have sworn there were audio or journal logs you found that confirmed the extent of the plan was basically, “open her up and idk, poke around?” I did somehow mix up Joel’s lie with the actual game over the last decade, so I might be totally off.
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Mar 13, 2023 07:10
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i thought bella ramsey knocked it out of the park with her emoting in the final scene. i think the pacing of the season has been uneven, but no complaints about any of the acting or the character writing
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Mar 13, 2023 07:11
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:i thought bella ramsey knocked it out of the park with her emoting in the final scene. i think the pacing of the season has been uneven, but no complaints about any of the acting or the character writing Absolutely. All the best scenes in this series (besides episodes 3) are ones with Joel and Ellie bouncing off of each other. I hope they both get Emmys.
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Mar 13, 2023 07:13
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Kwolok posted:But also, who cares. Even if they had the most enlightened plan, a 100% fool proof way to make a cure at the cost of Ellie's life, Joel still would have saved her. If they wanted to make the point that Joel would kill them even if he knew they were definitely going to succeed in making a cure, they should have made it seem like the Fireflies were definitely going to succeed in making a cure. Instead, they made it look like the Fireflies are morons who are immediately killing the only immune person ever to exist. For all we know the immunity could only ever be passed through pregnancy, but they're eliminating the only chance of ever knowing that (or countless other possible details about how the immunity works). You can completely ignore Joel's character and still be screaming at the screen that the Fireflies absolutely must not be allowed to go ahead with their plan. So if they want to make it look like Joel is acting without regard for morality, why give us such a strong reason to support the morality of his decision? Really though I'm not even complaining about the episode! It all works for me because Joel betrays Ellie's trust at the end. imo he does the right thing by stopping the fireflies, but he's too willing to believe Marlene's bullshit about him being selfish and chooses to embody that, lying to Ellie and preventing her from having the chance to make her own decisions about his actions and her role in all of it. Martman fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 07:16
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Skyl3lazer posted:That ending did not deliver on the promise of the first 7 episodes lol. 10 minutes of characters and a 30 minute schlocky as gently caress action sequence.
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Mar 13, 2023 07:26
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Seconding others who said I wish the season had gotten one more episode to let everything breathe just a little more. Was thrilled they kept the giraffe scene, for some reason I was convinced it happened earlier in the game and it seemed ludicrous to me that they wouldn't have it. As for the big thing of the episode, I felt the same way as I did about the game: if "saving" the world requires cutting open a little girl's brain, then that world doesn't deserve to be saved. gently caress that doctor, gently caress Marlene, we've already seen from Tommy's town that the world can recover without the need to vivisect children, and if it can't, then gently caress the world too.
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Mar 13, 2023 07:59
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What if the child herself is willing to be vivisected for the possibility of saving the world? I think a strong reason the show ends so well is because more or less everyone's reasonable is intensely understandable ways. Vivisecting a child loving sucks, but is it worth it to save billions of people? What if it's not guaranteed? What if it is? These are fun questions to ask as an audience. Obviously it's a non factor for Joel, but as an audience we understand everyone's perspective really well. The doctors and Marlene are desperate for any chance at all for a cure, even if it means doing something awful. Joel is not willing to save a billion people if it means losing Ellie but he's willing to hurt anyone in his way to do so. Everyone is a hypocrite, everyone is dealing with gray problems. I think anyone saying "a world that has to sacrifice a child to save everything isn't worth saving" is being disingenuous if they think this problem, effectively a trolley problem, doesn't illicit at least some hesitation and consideration. Kwolok fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 08:28
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Kwolok posted:Obviously it's a non factor for Joel, but as an audience we understand everyone's perspective really well.
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Mar 13, 2023 08:40
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Martman posted:Nah. The fireflies are taking an insane risk without some plot contrivance justifying them rushing so irresponsibly, and we're not really shown any of their perspective at all (aside from the fact that Marlene clearly does care about Ellie). This is like people being upset when the "hacking" depicted in tv or movies isn't realistic enough. The means through which they want to kill Ellie to try and find a cure are hand waivey and decidedly vague because who really cares what wild crazy science they're going to do to try and stop a wild crazy fungus. I cannot express how little the specific details of the "cure" matter.
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Mar 13, 2023 08:49
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We can imagine a scenario very similar to the one in the show where the Firefly doctor is a reasonable man making a difficult choice, but in the show he's a loving moron. I thought Episode 8 had an interesting situation where at first it seems that Joel is at odds with a person who has a justifiable motive to want him dead. David wants revenge for the death of his friend, even though Joel was acting in self-defense. Then it turned out David's a pedophile and a cannibal and deserves to die.
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Mar 13, 2023 08:50
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Kwolok posted:This is like people being upset when the "hacking" depicted in tv or movies isn't realistic enough. The means through which they want to kill Ellie to try and find a cure are hand waivey and decidedly vague because who really cares what wild crazy science they're going to do to try and stop a wild crazy fungus. I cannot express how little the specific details of the "cure" matter. You're acting like it's normal to take the statements of any random character in a work of fiction to be establishing facts within that universe. Like to go with your hacking example, imagine some characters are trying to hack a device to stop a nuclear bomb from going off. A character says "I will hack the computer by pouring Brawndo on it and smashing it with a hammer," another character says "gently caress you that's idiotic" and knocks them out. That's what I see in TLoU. Martman fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 08:51
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