EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

Antigravitas posted:

What economic self-interest?

There is zero economic reason for doing this. It's all because the liberals are all-in on culture war for vroom vroom.

? the short article literally discusses the economic self interest driving this, its to allow the big German car makers to keep making ICE vehicles:

quote:

To understand the German spanner, look to its domestic politics. Mr Scholz presides over a coalition of his Social Democrats, the Greens and the liberal Free Democrats (FDP), the smallest of the three, who hold the transport ministry. Rather oddly, its conception of liberalism includes mollycoddling incumbent carmakers, some of whom are not keen on having to scrap their polluting technologies. The FDP has been trounced in a spate of regional elections, and needs a cause to rally its base. It wants the EU to introduce an exemption for cars accepting �e-fuels�, which work in petrol cars but are made with renewable energy (in tiny quantities, for now). The FDP says it wants to keep technological options open. But a loophole for e-fuels might allow Porsche, BMW and others to keep making internal-combustion engines�which owners might keep filling with carbon-spewing fuels.

# ? Mar 9, 2023 23:48

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# ? May 23, 2024 12:09

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Not So Fast posted:

Are there any goons from Georgia who can give some background on the recent protests?

Why now, and why over a foreign lobbying law? Was Georgia really close to getting into the EU?

Foreign lobbying law is an incredibly charitable interpretation of what's going on. It's almost the exact same arbitrary censorship law that Russia has.

# ? Mar 9, 2023 23:48

Antigravitas: Dec 8, 2019; Die Rettung fuer die Landwirte:

Blut posted:

? the short article literally discusses the economic self interest driving this, its to allow the big German car makers to keep making ICE vehicles:

The article is wrong.

The car makers aren't interested either. (except porsche, maybe, for pure symbolism to their customers. I.e. absolute cretins)

As I said, it is literally just about the liberals throwing a tantrum because they think they haven't been obstructionist enough. There is zero, absolute zero economic justification for their antics.

e: Like, do you actually think the miniscule market of dipshits who need their vroom vroom is even close to relevant to the big car makers? They know as well as everyone else that ICE is over for consumer cars, and they've been spinning down combustion R&D as a result. If they were actually opposed to the EU plan they would've been screaming from the rooftops last year, not now.

Antigravitas fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Mar 10, 2023

# ? Mar 10, 2023 08:09

Antigravitas: Dec 8, 2019; Die Rettung fuer die Landwirte:

quote:

Berlin/Munich (dpa) - The FDP accuses the CSU of being partly to blame for the impending end of cars with combustion engines from 2035. "The CSU is putting on an astonishing show these days: it is voting in the EU against the phasing out of internal combustion engines, which its own Commission head Ursula von der Leyen is pushing for. CSU Vice-President Manfred Weber criticises the FDP, while his party, which had been in the Federal Ministry of Transport since 2009, would have had many opportunities to avert the phasing out of the internal combustion engine," FDP parliamentary group leader Christian D�rr told the Deutsche Presse-Agentur in Munich.

He especially wanted CSU Vice President Weber, in his "important position" as head of the EPP parliamentary group in the European Parliament, to support the efforts of Federal Transport Minister Volker Wissing (FDP). "This is not about party political games, but about the question of whether we can make our transport climate neutral with new technologies," D�rr said. "But in truth, the CSU is not interested in that," D�rr continued. After all, party leader Markus S�der, "the flag in the wind, has repeatedly called for the end of the combustion engine in recent years".

On Friday, the EU decision on the planned phase-out of cars with internal combustion engines from 2035 was postponed indefinitely due to German demands. Shortly before, Federal Transport Minister Wissing had said in Berlin that Germany could not agree to the planned blanket ban on internal combustion engines from 2035 at the present time.

Wissing reiterated the demand that the EU Commission submit a proposal on how "climate-neutral" synthetic fuels can be used in internal combustion engines after 2035. The Brussels authority would have to fulfil a corresponding promise.

Weber had accused the FDP of having campaigned too late for the preservation of cars with combustion engines.

(imagine a fractal of :jerkbag:

)

That's what this is about : "Look at me, I am the valiant protector of the vroom vroom, more conservativer than the Bavarian conservatives against the things we agreed to previously".

With any luck, the FDP will be out of parliament next election.

FWIW, the whole thing will probably get solved by allowing cars to emit CO2 if the fuel is carbon neutral. Which is a pointless and purely symbolic action since the efficiency of e-fuels is and always will be garbage.

Of course, the liberals will have irrevocably damaged EU processes and unity, but that's a small price to pay for getting to play strong to a nonexistent domestic audience.

# ? Mar 10, 2023 12:31

KozmoNaut: Apr 23, 2008; Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle

I don't know the specific details of the ICE ban, but I hope it's done like the incandescent lightbulb "ban", by requiring a certain minimum efficiency, rather than saying that cars must be electric and have batteries.

0g/km CO₂ should be the requirement. I don't care what the motive power is, as long as it eliminates tailpipe emissions.

E: and all the German automakers are heavy into electric cars now, with multiple models each. Only the vroom-vroom racers will miss the ICE engined models.

# ? Mar 10, 2023 13:40

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

KozmoNaut posted:

I don't know the specific details of the ICE ban, but I hope it's done like the incandescent lightbulb "ban", by requiring a certain minimum efficiency, rather than saying that cars must be electric and have batteries.

0g/km CO₂ should be the requirement. I don't care what the motive power is, as long as it eliminates tailpipe emissions.

E: and all the German automakers are heavy into electric cars now, with multiple models each. Only the vroom-vroom racers will miss the ICE engined models.

The phrasing calls for �an EU fleet-wide target to reduce CO2 emissions produced by new cars and vans by 100% compared to 2021�.

# ? Mar 10, 2023 13:54

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

Antigravitas posted:

The article is wrong.

The car makers aren't interested either. (except porsche, maybe, for pure symbolism to their customers. I.e. absolute cretins)

As I said, it is literally just about the liberals throwing a tantrum because they think they haven't been obstructionist enough. There is zero, absolute zero economic justification for their antics.

e: Like, do you actually think the miniscule market of dipshits who need their vroom vroom is even close to relevant to the big car makers? They know as well as everyone else that ICE is over for consumer cars, and they've been spinning down combustion R&D as a result. If they were actually opposed to the EU plan they would've been screaming from the rooftops last year, not now.

Ah yes, the article in one of the most internationally respected English language news publications is wrong because forums poster Antigravitas says so. Of course.

ICE vehicles are far more profitable for car manufacturers than EVs currently, thats a well established fact. Car manufacturers are being seen to "embrace the changeover" because its good optics (and because they have to politically), but they're doing their best to delay everywhere they can to maximise their profits in the meantime. Which is exactly whats happening in Germany. Its really not a difficult concept to grasp.

# ? Mar 10, 2023 13:55

KozmoNaut: Apr 23, 2008; Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle

cinci zoo sniper posted:

The phrasing calls for “an EU fleet-wide target to reduce CO2 emissions produced by new cars and vans by 100% compared to 2021”.

Good, that is what I was hoping for.

# ? Mar 10, 2023 13:58

BabyFur Denny: Mar 18, 2003

Blut posted:

Ah yes, the article in one of the most internationally respected English language news publications is wrong because forums poster Antigravitas says so. Of course.

ICE vehicles are far more profitable for car manufacturers than EVs currently, thats a well established fact. Car manufacturers are being seen to "embrace the changeover" because its good optics (and because they have to politically), but they're doing their best to delay everywhere they can to maximise their profits in the meantime. Which is exactly whats happening in Germany. Its really not a difficult concept to grasp.

That dipshit of an article mentions "But a loophole for e-fuels might allow Porsche, BMW and others to keep making internal-combustion engines" but completely forgets to mention that all major German car manufacturers except Porsche and BMW already committed to phasing out ICEs well before the deadline suggested by the law. It's extremely bad faith.

# ? Mar 10, 2023 14:03

Antigravitas: Dec 8, 2019; Die Rettung fuer die Landwirte:

Forums Poster Antigravitas has been politically active in German politics for two decades.

Yes, I do know better than the Economist about the motivations of the liberals.

# ? Mar 10, 2023 14:19

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

You know who else was active in German politics for over two decades?

# ? Mar 10, 2023 16:50

Antigravitas: Dec 8, 2019; Die Rettung fuer die Landwirte:

How apropros, the Germany thread is on page 1935 right now. You're welcome to come over and have the locals tell you about the FDP.

# ? Mar 10, 2023 17:02

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

steinrokkan posted:

You know who else was active in German politics for over two decades?

"That's right."

# ? Mar 10, 2023 17:30

An insane mind: Aug 11, 2018

steinrokkan posted:

You know who else was active in German politics for over two decades?

He went out with a bang right?

# ? Mar 10, 2023 18:03

Herman Merman: Jul 6, 2008

steinrokkan posted:

You know who else was active in German politics for over two decades?

A DnD classic well executed, I approve

# ? Mar 10, 2023 18:29

SlowBloke: Aug 14, 2017

What I'm seeing on newspapers and socials here in Italy doesn't seem to be an opposition on technological terms(even if efuels and biofuels zero co2 credentials are suspect at best) but a contrarian wave, much like the reaction to lockdown or mandatory vaccination. Gullible chuds going against the politicians just because they feel their freedoms compromised.

# ? Mar 10, 2023 19:51

Pope Hilarius II: Nov 10, 2008

An insane mind posted:

He went out with a bang right?

He was a bit of a one-Hitler wonder though

# ? Mar 10, 2023 19:53

mortons stork: Oct 13, 2012

SlowBloke posted:

What I'm seeing on newspapers and socials here in Italy doesn't seem to be an opposition on technological terms(even if efuels and biofuels zero co2 credentials are suspect at best) but a contrarian wave, much like the reaction to lockdown or mandatory vaccination. Gullible chuds going against the politicians just because they feel their freedoms compromised.

To be fair italy is also shockingly car-dependent, I remember an article with stats about public transport that found that even in big cities not even a significant proportion, but the majority, of movement, was done by car.

We are stuck at around 40 years ago in urban planning philosophy, which means the countryside is stuck 70 years ago.

The concern that the rug is gonna be pulled out from under people after the italian state sunk billions upon billions of good money after bad money (car infrastructure, ridiculous car subsidies etc) is real.

Of course, electing reactionary shitheads isn't gonna get us the regional rail and local public transport money we need, so the democratic crisis of representation affects this issue in a very real way.

# ? Mar 10, 2023 20:00

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

cinci zoo sniper posted:

Foreign lobbying law is an incredibly charitable interpretation of what's going on. It's almost the exact same arbitrary censorship law that Russia has.

Thankfully Russia have stayed out of this dispute and haven't thrown some of their spare LNG onto the flam-- https://twitter.com/PMSimferopol/status/1634111915596173312

:staredog:

And yes, it's the real one:

# ? Mar 10, 2023 21:21

Small White Dragon: Nov 23, 2007; No relation.

I'm honestly sort of surprised that Georgia is given/considered for EU candidate status; I've never really considered it European.

Has the EU ever specified what it considers the borders of Europe?

# ? Mar 11, 2023 07:04

Dawncloack: Nov 26, 2007; ECKS DEE!; Nap Ghost

Small White Dragon posted:

I'm honestly sort of surprised that Georgia is given/considered for EU candidate status; I've never really considered it European.

Has the EU ever specified what it considers the borders of Europe?

I meam, it HAS specified that Morocco is not within it's borders. That's something, right?

# ? Mar 11, 2023 07:34

Torrannor: Apr 27, 2013; ---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

Small White Dragon posted:

I'm honestly sort of surprised that Georgia is given/considered for EU candidate status; I've never really considered it European.

Has the EU ever specified what it considers the borders of Europe?

Not exactly. But the dividing line between Europe and Asia is arbitrary in any case, and Georgia lies just on the other side of the most commonly accepted dividing line. Turkey is technically a valid candidate to join the EU due to their territory around Istanbul (although they won't get in any time soon, if ever). Iceland is also an edge case of whether it's in Europe or North America. Cyprus definitely is in Asia.

Generally, the EU has been willing to accept countries right on the edge of the generally accepted geographic borders of Europe as long as there's a cultural/historical connection. Georgia is a Christian Orthodox country, so that might be enough.

# ? Mar 11, 2023 07:39

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

steinrokkan posted:

You know who else was active in German politics for over two decades?

Bismarck?

# ? Mar 11, 2023 08:08

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

Antigravitas posted:

What economic self-interest?

There is zero economic reason for doing this. It's all because the liberals are all-in on culture war for vroom vroom.

Germany is an industrial world leader in a bunch of vehicle-components that are rendered worthless if EV:s dominate the planet.

# ? Mar 11, 2023 08:41

Torrannor: Apr 27, 2013; ---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

MiddleOne posted:

Germany is an industrial world leader in a bunch of vehicle-components that are rendered worthless if EV:s dominate the planet.

Are you deliberately ignoring the fact that all most German car companies already announced that they will stop using ICEs before the deadline that the new EU law is going to set? There have been several posts about this thread, some even on this very page.

# ? Mar 11, 2023 08:58

Angry Lobster: May 16, 2011; Served with honor
and some clarified butter.

Torrannor posted:

Are you deliberately ignoring the fact that all most German car companies already announced that they will stop using ICEs before the deadline that the new EU law is going to set? There have been several posts about this thread, some even on this very page.

German car companies, paragons of honesty and virtue.

# ? Mar 11, 2023 09:14

mortons stork: Oct 13, 2012

I for one definitely trust the giant corporations who directly profit off of destroying the planet with cars and making the world more car dependent not to lobby the government to let them make more planet destroying cars

# ? Mar 11, 2023 09:19

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

They said they were going to switch, but since when are corporations expected to follow through on their promises? I don't see it as any more credible than the commitment by EU governments that turned out to be worth less than the paper it was published on, of anything it's even less credible on account of the nature of business and not being beholden to the public. Even if they do mostly transition to EV, that doesn't mean they won't be tempted to wring as much residual revenue from legacy ICE manufacturing as possible.

# ? Mar 11, 2023 09:20

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

Even if there is an honest desire to switch over to EVs it is going to be a risky move. These corporations have heavy institutional experience in making ICEs and have every capitalist incentive to not abandon that investment.

# ? Mar 11, 2023 10:08

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

Torrannor posted:

Are you deliberately ignoring the fact that all most German car companies already announced that they will stop using ICEs before the deadline that the new EU law is going to set? There have been several posts about this thread, some even on this very page.

It's a an intentional and well-known stall tactic and one they've been employing for the better part of the last decade. They market, research and develop green, but lobby for ICE. I personally listened to one of Daimlers top executives talk about it as early as 2015. Germany is behind in EV technology and ahead in technology that that is going to be rendered worthless so every year delayed is precious for the competiveness of the german auto industry.

It's not like you guys are alone. Sweden re-structured its green-car incentives for years to not outpace the transitioning of domestic car manufacturer Volvo who are still laughably behind and steadily catching up. Car industries are fragile and eveyone knows it.

MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Mar 11, 2023

# ? Mar 11, 2023 10:34

Antigravitas: Dec 8, 2019; Die Rettung fuer die Landwirte:

SlowBloke posted:

What I'm seeing on newspapers and socials here in Italy doesn't seem to be an opposition on technological terms(even if efuels and biofuels zero co2 credentials are suspect at best) but a contrarian wave, much like the reaction to lockdown or mandatory vaccination. Gullible chuds going against the politicians just because they feel their freedoms compromised.

Yup. But dumber:

https://www.capital.de/wirtschaft-politik/fdp--nein-allein-reicht-nicht-33270084.html

Capital.de posted:

Since its election defeat in Berlin, the FDP has been looking for a ruckus in the coalition. This creates noise, but draws attention to a major deficit: the party lacks plans and ideas.
At least Olaf Scholz can still be relied on. This is how a prominent liberal summed up his mood this week. The chancellor has an interest in a strong FDP, the man continued, because he knows that he only has a chance of re-election with the FDP. The Greens alone were not enough to secure his power in the next election, and they were more competitor than support anyway. So Scholz would make sure that the FDP could assert itself in the coalition from time to time and get its successes.

Voting FDP so that Scholz remains chancellor - one can already vividly imagine the posters in 2025. But how bitter must it be for such a self-confident and eloquent party leader as Christian Lindner when the best hope in his position is Olaf Scholz?

After the defeat in mid-February in the Berlin repeat election - the FDP flew out of the city parliament with 4.6 per cent - the party is in a desolate situation. It could have been just the prelude to a whole series of further depressing election results: On 14 May, Bremen votes, where the party is polling at four per cent - it would be the next expulsion. And on 8 October, the elections in Bavaria and Hesse will follow: In Hesse, the FDP currently has six percent of the vote, but in Bavaria only three percent.

Barely 18 months after the Bundestag elections with a respectable 11.5 per cent and actually strengthened by four important ministries in the federal cabinet, the party is already experiencing another political near-death experience - and has apparently opted for rioting as an antidote. If not even its own supporters take note of its beneficial work, it has to be all the louder. The slogan that party vice-president Wolfgang Kubicki already issued in frustration on the evening of the Berlin election applies: "From now on, it's pure FDP", and if the Green Minister of Economics blocks the construction of new motorways, then there will be no new power lines either.

Internally, however, the party leaders have started to investigate the causes and rely on an old core competence of the Liberals: with impressive relentlessness they look for the culprits - everywhere, but not within themselves.

For example, there is a strangely familiar explanation, already familiar from the last black-yellow coalition from 2009 to 2013: they chose the wrong portfolios after the election. It was a mistake on Christian Lindner's part to choose the unfamiliar Ministry of Finance instead of the Ministry of Economics (which had been led by the liberals for many years). After all, as finance minister you always have to please everyone else and have no leeway for your own initiatives. During the coalition negotiations, the decision in favour of the ministry was considered a particularly wise move - after all, the treasurer can deny everyone their wishes.

The reasoning brings back memories of a very similar complaint in 2010/2011, when other party leaders were happy to explain why it had been wrong of the then party leader Guido Westerwelle to have chosen the Foreign Office for himself and not the finance portfolio, which was actually due for the tax-cutting party, but which was much more difficult. A few months later, Westerwelle was ousted as party leader, but it did not help the party. At the time, it was said that the party had become a party of failure by renouncing the powerful finance portfolio and the tax reform it had always demanded. Today, top party leaders declare that this image of the party of failure is now leading to the attitude of "pure FDP", no matter what the cost.

The Ministry of Transport and Digital Affairs was also the wrong choice. For there, the CSU had created a mess for many years - recognisable to everyone beforehand - and today a new abyss is opening up behind every door. The brave head of department, Volker Wissing, is doing his best to bring order to the chaos, but all too often the competence for transport and digital affairs does not lie in his house, but with the L�nder and municipalities. What is he supposed to do there?

And so it goes on and on. What all ministries have in common, including education and justice, is that the ministers are not able to do much and thus cannot set priorities for the party. This is the reason why the party is perceived as weak and pale. The next culprit is the media, which without exception conspires against the FDP. Whenever a liberal comes around with a proposal, it is downright put down and has no chance of a fair evaluation.

It is an unpleasant mixture of self-pity and helplessness in which the party is entangled. It seeks its way out of this situation by preventing what it sees as the grossest mischief of the coalition partners: no softening of the debt brake, no ban on cars with combustion engines from 2035, no speed limit on German motorways, no hasty ban on oil and gas heating, no change in index-linked rents. The list could be continued: The colleagues of the "S�ddeutsche Zeitung" recently came up with a good 30 controversial bills.

"Why do we still need the FDP?" asked a supporter in the round with the party celebrity this week, to provide the answer at the same time: "So that there are no tax increases." Preventing the worst, that is the raison d'�tre of the FDP, nothing less - but also nothing more.

This motive is not new, but in view of the poll results, the question arises whether this is really enough. At least for more than those three to slightly over five percent who reliably vote for the party but do not offer any guarantee of existence. This probably even reveals a structural weakness of the FDP: in a way, it is a victim of its own brand essence - because it always wants to contain the state, it finds it easy to pick apart the concepts of its political competitors. But it finds it difficult to develop its own concepts. For a long time this was tax policy, but even in this field the party has given up its ambitions - although, or precisely because, it now leads the finance ministry.

The conceptual failure in the Ministry of Transport and Digital Affairs is particularly striking: instead of finally equipping Deutsche Bahn and its ailing track network legally, with personnel and financially in the way that would be necessary, the state secretary in charge of the department indulged in a grotesque PR gaffe: the planned Deutschland-Takt on the railway's long-distance lines would probably not come in the next two to three years, but rather be a project until 2070. Later, the man explained that his quotes had been misrepresented, but the communication is nevertheless symptomatic: the will to really reorganise the railways is not discernible. And the situation is similar with digitalisation: Where are the FDP's initiatives to digitalise offers and services in transport, public administration, schools and universities?

Originally, Finance Minister Lindner wanted to present the federal budget for 2024 next week, but he cancelled the decision in the cabinet on Thursday at short notice. Apparently, the gaps between his insistence on the debt brake and the additional spending requests of his cabinet colleagues are still too large. Chancellor Olaf Scholz is said to have promised him his backing - but one suspects that this alone will hardly be enough to make it a big success for the FDP.

The fantasy of the liberals acting in anyone's interested but their own delusions is downright comical. Oh, to live in a world where the FDP acts according to rational interests. What optimism and faith in politics.

# ? Mar 11, 2023 10:49

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Small White Dragon posted:

I'm honestly sort of surprised that Georgia is given/considered for EU candidate status; I've never really considered it European.

Has the EU ever specified what it considers the borders of Europe?

Kazakhstan and Israel are UEFA members. The definition of Europe is extremely flexible. Though I will say that one boundary is traditionally viewed as the Urals and Caucasus mountains. So Azerbaijan, Armenia & Georgia are European by that metric

# ? Mar 13, 2023 13:01

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Eurovision map is the only accurate European map, complete with Morocco and a tiny Australia trying to look inconspicuous in one of the corners.

# ? Mar 13, 2023 13:09

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

Guavanaut posted:

Eurovision map is the only accurate European map, complete with Morocco and a tiny Australia trying to look inconspicuous in one of the corners.

Australia should have sent AC/DC

# ? Mar 13, 2023 13:15

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Rust Martialis posted:

Australia should have sent AC/DC

Sorry, it's illegal to have good music at Eurovision

# ? Mar 13, 2023 13:34

BabyFur Denny: Mar 18, 2003

forkboy84 posted:

Sorry, it's illegal to have good music at Eurovision

That still doesn't explain why they don't send AC/DC

# ? Mar 13, 2023 14:40

Haramstufe Rot: Jun 24, 2016

Torrannor posted:

Not exactly. But the dividing line between Europe and Asia is arbitrary in any case, and Georgia lies just on the other side of the most commonly accepted dividing line. Turkey is technically a valid candidate to join the EU due to their territory around Istanbul (although they won't get in any time soon, if ever). Iceland is also an edge case of whether it's in Europe or North America. Cyprus definitely is in Asia.

Generally, the EU has been willing to accept countries right on the edge of the generally accepted geographic borders of Europe as long as there's a cultural/historical connection. Georgia is a Christian Orthodox country, so that might be enough.

The dividing line is whether or not the country is Christian enough

# ? Mar 13, 2023 15:12