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WoodrowSkillson posted:If they were actually going to let him go than it's even more evidence in the "absolute morons" pile since there is absolutely no way that ends well for them. Marlene considered Joel a friend (or as close to a friend as Marlene would allow), she considered herself indebted to him for bring Ellie to her, and, like any reasonable person, would not expect one man to be able to take down a hospital full of armed guards. She is hardly being an idiot. I don't think anyone would expect Joel to do what he did for her. She was "cargo" after all and while Joel does protest (though all he literally says is "I do"), to assume Marlene could know the extent for which Joel would protect her, and undo all the work to bring her there is hilarious if you honest to god believe all of that. Marlene believes she knows how difficult this is far more than Joel could ever know, she was there when she was born after all. Its like you think a character would know what the audience knows. You understand that isn't the case right? Like marlene didn't watch The Last of Us.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:59
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qbert posted:The entire dialogue from Marlene about the messenger stuff explaining why Ellie's immune wasn't in the game. They definitely added more medical mumbo-jumbo to try and persuade the audience that creating a cure would have probably been successful. And the whole flashback with Ellie's mom wasn't in the game to explain why she specifically was special and why they probably weren't going to find someone else who was immune, or immune in a way that could create a cure other than her. That's interesting but ultimately none of that helped things for me. This: Marx Headroom posted:That abandoned hospital where Joel got bunted could've been the setup. Show monkeys in cages with half of them infected. Maybe they find a dissected clicker on an operating table. I don't know, just show us the Fireflies have been trying but nothing else works instead of taking it on faith from Marlene. This is basic stuff. Is more what i had in mind for the Firefly's motivations. Now, being fair to Marlene, regarding Joel, she couldn't have possibly known he bonded with Ellie the way he did, all she knows is Joel the ruthless selfish motherfucker from Boston. So in her mind Joel would care less.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:59
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Frionnel posted:That's interesting but ultimately none of that helped things for me. This: I literally think if they added one line about how in boston they ran all sorts of tests on ellie, and sent her blood elsewhere to be analyzed and they had been preparing for this surgery now for a long long time as all other methods to provide a cure failed would have helped a lot of people move past this one piece that they can't seem to get past.
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Mar 13, 2023 18:01
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average viewer who took a course on media literacy based goon zombie enjoyer 
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Mar 13, 2023 18:09
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Kwolok posted:It's a world where cordyceps infect people's brains, cause them to never decay, can cause them to grow ten times their size, develop echolocation, and have a vast network of fungal based communication. Kwolok posted:In your mind, is any character in any media that says "I have a plan" a fool of we aren't shown that explicit plan working in the past? The point is that the audience can't tell whether the character is bad at science and this is a stupid plan, or if this might actually be a reasonable plan because this is a reasonable example of how TV show science works. You don't need to show that explicit plan working to show that the guy isn't a fool, but he needs to sound somewhat credible when he's proposing it. Like, the lights go out, right? Someone says "Oh, I think we got a short circuit" and I think "okay, sure, this guy might know something about their electrical system." If the guy had said "Oh, I think the lightbulb wasps are at it again" then I'm not sure if the guy is a complete moron or if lightbulb wasps are a legitimate concern in this TV universe.
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Mar 13, 2023 18:13
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Phenotype posted:The point is that the audience can't tell whether the character is bad at science and this is a stupid plan, or if this might actually be a reasonable plan because this is a reasonable example of how TV show science works. You don't need to show that explicit plan working to show that the guy isn't a fool, but he needs to sound somewhat credible when he's proposing it. You would think that though if you existed in a universe where lightbulb wasps were a real thing. As I said before, the science sounds a bit silly and ridiculous but we exist in a silly ridiculous world with fungus turning people into homicidal bats. Desperate times, desperate measures etc etc
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Mar 13, 2023 18:21
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That was a very boring episode, especially for a finale. All in all, decent show but nothing praise worthy. I hope they do a way better job with season 2. From what little I know about the 2nd game, it has potential to be better. Should be a lot more fighting and we get to see more than a handful of characters.
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Mar 13, 2023 18:34
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Kwolok posted:I literally think if they added one line about how in boston they ran all sorts of tests on ellie, and sent her blood elsewhere to be analyzed and they had been preparing for this surgery now for a long long time as all other methods to provide a cure failed would have helped a lot of people move past this one piece that they can't seem to get past. But you then have to handwave away one minor little point. The fact that they didn't know that Joel and Ellie were coming. I don't want to hear about the game, in the TV show its over 6 months since Marlene made a deal with Joel to get Ellie to the Boston statehouse. The Boston statehouse was then exploded and all the Fireflies based there were never heard from again. Even if they had survived that, Joel was never asked by the Fireflies to bring Ellie as far as he did. Even if he had been, they weren't actually at the original hospital they were expected to be at. Even if Joel still knew where to go, its basically suicide to try and cross the country like that as demonstrated by Marlene and 5 bodyguards barely making it. So all that considered, please don't tell me that the fireflies were sitting there in their hospital, prelim tests all done and just waiting for Ellie to show up that day. Its why the "Do it immediately" plan is such a huge turd dragging down the plot, there is no reasonable scenario where Ellie shows up out of the blue and within a few hours is sedated and ready for brain dismemberment. Medically and scientifically that is a horrible plan., most especially in a world where the damage was already done 20 years ago and it would take another 20 years to get the vaccine distributed anyway.
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Mar 13, 2023 18:41
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bucketybuck posted:But you then have to handwave away one minor little point. The fact that they didn't know that Joel and Ellie were coming. Yeah I mean it's just nothing more than bad video game writing. Kind of sucks they didn't realize it and try to correct it, but that's all it is. Just shallow writing that never got punched up. Just like Joel, we just need to accept it and search for something else to care about.
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Mar 13, 2023 18:47
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Kwolok posted:Marlene considered Joel a friend (or as close to a friend as Marlene would allow), she considered herself indebted to him for bring Ellie to her, and, like any reasonable person, would not expect one man to be able to take down a hospital full of armed guards. By that logic, Marlene's "I owe you an explanation" preamble also doesn't make sense. If she reads the situation as Joel just having completed a long job, why not just "here's your payment, it's none of your business where she is, go on your merry way"?
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Mar 13, 2023 18:48
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bucketybuck posted:But you then have to handwave away one minor little point. The fact that they didn't know that Joel and Ellie were coming. Hey that's a good point lol. They just have a surgery suite ready to go for months and months hoping "maybe they are still alive". This is actually funny and true critique. Doesn't really affect the actual themes of the decisions but yeah from a practical perspective a pretty good goof.
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Mar 13, 2023 18:53
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qbert posted:Is the original TLOU game thread archived still on these forums? It would be fun to go back through them a decade later and see the exact same arguments/debates being repeated from then and now. Spoiler thread here that gets right into discussion about the game: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3555417 Original thread is still there too (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3550017) although it's more gameplay stuff from what I clicked through
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Mar 13, 2023 18:55
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What the story boils down to for me is that Joel and Ellie are the only investment I have in this fictional world; so if Joel is willing to crush the possibility of a vaccine to save Ellie, I can intellectually grasp the gravity of that decision, but emotionally I don't feel any sort of conflict about it because there is so little else about humanity as it's presented in the show and the game that's worth saving outside of those two characters. And I think that's kind of the point of the ending, that Joel and Ellie, and likely you, the viewer, all decide they can live with the price that's been paid. (And that's all setting aside whether a vaccine really helps fix civilization in a meaningful way, which I think is very much up for debate.)
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Mar 13, 2023 18:56
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Ror posted:Spoiler thread here that gets right into discussion about the game: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3555417 The one thing to keep in mind is that Part II wasn't even announced as a thing for another 3 years. So the end, which is almost exactly as it was shown on TV, was all we had (and then the Left Behind DLC w/ Riley).
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Mar 13, 2023 19:03
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BIG HEADLINE posted:I think the message to take from the season finale regarding the Fireflies is the message that was clear from the onset. They don't want to save everyone from FEDRA, they want to be the *new* FEDRA because they think everyone else is incompetent or a barrier to the world *they* want to create. Maybe. What I find interesting about the fireflies is that their goal of creating a cure seems not the main mission but instrumental to their main goal. The main goal being "anti FEDRA" and their proposed alternative society to authoritarian government being...whatever. I imagine any group like that would probably have dissenting voices within it on what the new world is supposed to look like. At the same time the situation in the last of us presents a situational argument for FEDRAS authoritarianism. Since how else are you gonna govern society. Yeah Victoria does it fine, but its a small town of 200 pop where everyone knows each other. In any population bigger than a small town how the hell do you keep tabs on everyone to ensure no ones getting bitten? Theres always the possibility that when/where FEDRA is toppled the alternative is worse. Maybe the fireflies, or at least some of them do want to take over as a new authoritarian gov. But even if they were thats not a simple 'both sides bad' thing because the vaccine would mean genuinely new possibility. Yes It could easily be used as a means of control - do what we say if you want your shots. But the fact its there as an option would mean the possibility of alternative ways of living and alternative political entities arising wanting to take/distribute it massive spider fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 19:06
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Evil Badman posted:The one thing to keep in mind is that Part II wasn't even announced as a thing for another 3 years. So the end, which is almost exactly as it was shown on TV, was all we had (and then the Left Behind DLC w/ Riley). The last scene is an ending so good that they probably should've just let it be.
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Mar 13, 2023 19:16
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Yeah, as bad as fedra is, in an actual post apocalyptic situation the whole "the govt is bad for doing XYZ" calculus does get a bit thrown off. Paranoia about the fireflies drives a bunch of the fascist oppression by fedra as it's the first thing mentioned by the fedra people we see, the infected are always secondary. Would they finds new boogeyman afterwards? I guess but it already exists with the infected. The whole show is just nihilist as gently caress which I can get behind though. Fedra and the firelies will hamstring each other and humanity will consist of a few communities like Jackson until they can no longer make that work and it all goes away.
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Mar 13, 2023 19:16
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General Dog posted:What the story boils down to for me is that Joel and Ellie are the only investment I have in this fictional world; so if Joel is willing to crush the possibility of a vaccine to save Ellie, I can intellectually grasp the gravity of that decision, but emotionally I don't feel any sort of conflict about it because there is so little else about humanity as it's presented in the show and the game that's worth saving outside of those two characters. And I think that's kind of the point of the ending, that Joel and Ellie, and likely you, the viewer, all decide they can live with the price that's been paid. Yeah this is absolutely the central theme of the story. Everything else is really just window dressing.
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Mar 13, 2023 19:17
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General Dog posted:The last scene is an ending so good that they probably should've just let it be. That pause and the music swelling got me both in the game and show.
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Mar 13, 2023 19:19
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General Dog posted:The last scene is an ending so good that they probably should've just let it be. Yeah I was really against the idea of the game having a sequel because the ending is completely perfect. I was glad to be proven wrong though, TLOU2 is great.
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Mar 13, 2023 19:36
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Kwolok posted:A lot of you, and I mean this earnestly, should consider a media literacy course at like a community college. "character 1: I can fly character 2: no you can't, that's dumb, no one can fly" the end you: this work has conclusively established that character 1 can fly, why are you being so illiterate?? Like I'm not gonna endlessly debate the issue in TLoU because the point has been made. But when you seem unable to distinguish between A Thing Happening in Fiction vs. A Character Saying Something in Fiction, it calls your own media literacy into question and makes it really weird to take snipes like this at people Martman fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 20:00
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Khanstant posted:If the game and show are wanting to ask "would u kill 1 to save all?" Well, a) hasn't the game/show already answered this question since you'll kill many to protect 2 In self-defence, though. Aside from references to his and Tommy's past of being on "both sides" of an ambush, within the show itself, do we ever see him kill anyone who isn't actively attempting to harm himself or Ellie?
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Mar 13, 2023 20:43
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freebooter posted:In self-defence, though. Aside from references to his and Tommy's past of being on "both sides" of an ambush, within the show itself, do we ever see him kill anyone who isn't actively attempting to harm himself or Ellie? In the finale he shoots a guy who is surrendering, although he doesn't trust that guy not to sneak up behind him later. He kills two tied-up captives in the episode before that.
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Mar 13, 2023 21:08
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It's really cool to come into this thread and see the same debates and conversations that happened when the game first came out in 2013. A huge thing that made the ending of the original game so impactful was there really was a sense that final "Okay." and the ambiguity of it could be all there was. Yes there was Left Behind and a spin off prequel comic, but that was the end of the story for a long long time. Naughty Dog did well to play coy about whether there would ever be a sequel, going off to make more Uncharted etc and there was a solid 4 or 5 years I think before it was ever officially announced* (although I think a dev accidentally spoiled it by referring to it as "the first last of us" in a Livestream shortly before that) and 7 before the sequel actually came out. There was soo much anticipation around whether we'd even get more Joel and Ellie and what that would even be Obviously in this case a season 2 has already been announced and it's not going to be seven years. I love TLOU2 and am incredibly curious about how they adapt it *Edit: I just googled it and it was only 3 but those still felt like three long years when it was getting celebrated as one of the greatest games ever made and it was unclear if there would be a follow up BOAT SHOWBOAT fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 21:42
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Omg drat it I am so loving sorry  Spinz fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 21:44
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Wrong thread
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Mar 13, 2023 21:44
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Yeah dude edit that out
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Mar 13, 2023 21:45
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freebooter posted:In self-defence, though. Aside from references to his and Tommy's past of being on "both sides" of an ambush, within the show itself, do we ever see him kill anyone who isn't actively attempting to harm himself or Ellie? The actual ambush in the show where he executes the the guy that Ellie shot and who is begging for his life.
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Mar 13, 2023 21:47
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I was very disappointed that I did read Part 2 leaks when they came out before the game did. Everything I read was much much better in context of the game than what it read in isolation. The game still ended up being one of my favourite stories of all time anyway, but I know I took the wind out of some moments by seeing those
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Mar 13, 2023 21:52
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freebooter posted:In self-defence, though. Aside from references to his and Tommy's past of being on "both sides" of an ambush, within the show itself, do we ever see him kill anyone who isn't actively attempting to harm himself or Ellie? I guess self defense doesn't carry that much weight with me. Seems like when you pick up a gun, you're saying there are some cases in which you'd kill someone with it. I have a hard time believing someone who would kill in self defense couldn't find some other motivation to also kill, at best would suspect they'd expand their definition of self defense to encompass wider range of acceptable violence.
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Mar 13, 2023 21:52
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Psst! This is the non-spoiler thread!
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Mar 13, 2023 21:52
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Thanks I had been wondering how the entire 2nd half of the series would end.
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Mar 13, 2023 21:55
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classic Spinz
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Mar 13, 2023 22:03
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qbert posted:Is the original TLOU game thread archived still on these forums? It would be fun to go back through them a decade later and see the exact same arguments/debates being repeated from then and now. BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:It's really cool to come into this thread and see the same debates and conversations that happened when the game first came out in 2013. Please stop doing this.
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Mar 13, 2023 22:41
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Kwolok posted:Is all you need like "Joel, we ran so many tests on her back in Boston, we've done all we can do without cracking her open"? Kind of, yeah. Having Ellie prepped for a brain removal like 2 hours after finding her randomly felt pretty silly. Just a "We've had a lot of time to run through things since Boston, this is all we've got left" or something. WoodrowSkillson posted:If they were actually going to let him go than it's even more evidence in the "absolute morons" pile since there is absolutely no way that ends well for them. They were going to let him go and not even give him the truck battery they promised him 
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Mar 13, 2023 22:55
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Sockser posted:They were going to let him go and not even give him the truck battery they promised him It's a bug associated with not properly finishing the battery fetch quest way back at the beginning.
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Mar 13, 2023 23:07
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Sockser posted:Kind of, yeah. Having Ellie prepped for a brain removal like 2 hours after finding her randomly felt pretty silly. Just a "We've had a lot of time to run through things since Boston, this is all we've got left" or something. If you wanted to, you could even make it feel like there's more of a legitimate plan in place by revealing Joel was always delivering Ellie to her death. Have Marlene say they shipped out blood and tissue samples for testing while Ellie was in Boston, and after months of research the west coast group was confident the brain surgery was a genuinely viable solution or something. Good TV shows don't rely on viewers going "cmon, you know the kind of thing they were going for" to properly set up their Big Moral Questions
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Mar 13, 2023 23:16
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Its also kind of weird that they had the doctor just ready to go at a moments notice and were just waiting around for Joel I guess to show up since he was several months late.
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Mar 13, 2023 23:24
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Hollismason posted:Its also kind of weird that they had the doctor just ready to go at a moments notice and were just waiting around for Joel I guess to show up since he was several months late. I mean they were in a hospital. He probably does other stuff there.
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Mar 13, 2023 23:25
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stev posted:I mean they were in a hospital. He probably does other stuff there. Its just strange that after getting Joel and Ellie they immediately just jump to "cut out her brain" instead of like I dunno run some blood tests maybe I dunno do a x ray.
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Mar 13, 2023 23:36
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