|
Iron Crowned posted:I don't have any issues with the Sinclair/Sheridan handoff, especially since Sinclair gets a nice send-off IMHO The first time you see it, Sinclair just vanishes and you don't even get to see him leave the station. I can see someone would be rankled about a major character change like that with no lead up.
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 12:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 05:27 |
|
|
V-Men posted:The first time you see it, Sinclair just vanishes and you don't even get to see him leave the station. I can see someone would be rankled about a major character change like that with no lead up. Yeah, I can too, but the show deals with it relatively gently. He gets a send off (and then another one waaay down the line) and everyone does the unusual "who's this new guy I don't like him" dance that's meant to hold the audience's hand a little bit during the transition. There are waaaay more brutal ways leads have been dispatched from shows. There was this one UK show that killed the old leads off between episodes, and revealed this by showing the new leads literally pissing all over the graves of the old ones. Or another show that had a big rock fall on the old lead's head two minutes into a season premier before moving swiftly on.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 13:03
|
|
|
Open Source Idiom posted:There are waaaay more brutal ways leads have been dispatched from shows. There was this one UK show that killed the old leads off between episodes, and revealed this by showing the new leads literally pissing all over the graves of the old ones. Lol, is this Ultimate Force? Or did another show do this?
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 14:05
|
|
|
Open Source Idiom posted:Yeah, I can too, but the show deals with it relatively gently. He gets a send off (and then another one waaay down the line) and everyone does the unusual "who's this new guy I don't like him" dance that's meant to hold the audience's hand a little bit during the transition. Two and a Half Men killed off Charlie Sheen by dropping a piano on his head.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 14:11
|
|
|
Criminal Minds was really pissy and passive-aggressive about Mandy Patinkin leaving. After he went, the characters had a brief bit of "How will we manage without him? Welp, movin' on...", but a couple of seasons later the creators decided to have Gideon brutally murdered in his own home (never once showing his face even as the team examined his body).
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 14:19
|
|
|
Remember when Kal Pen committed suicide on House, and then everyone forgot about him by the next episode
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 14:29
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:Isn't that the point of the show? You scream at your screen "Londo, what the gently caress are you doing?", but you still sort of like Londo, and it's all very The thing about Londo is that at the start of the show, he's right. As the show goes on, you see all his motivations, and they make sense. Continued Narn expansion is a thread, they nearly killed Londo's nephew with their conquest. The Centauri Republic is decaying, their quarantine on Na'ka'leen Feeders was lifted as a cost-cutting measure, endangering the galaxy. On the day Morden comes, he has to hand over a bunch of the Republic's cash over to some criminal dingus to recover a lost artifact of their former glory. You can see where he's coming from, and it's subtle at what point he slips into being wrong and doing wrong, and even when he changes his mind, he just can't turn things around. And also at the start of the show, G'kar was wrong, the Narn Regime is bad. G'kar's a gross womanizer, he's a liar, he got into his position by making enemies who try to kill him. The Narn Regime is trying to start a war, they're arms dealers giving assistance to pirates. And it's not exactly easy to say either when G'kar on balance starts doing more good than bad, when he has put aside selfishness and lust for power, and when he redeems himself, although that's generally less of a concern to figure out for most people.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 16:28
|
|
|
Vavrek posted:I think G'Kar, when trying to get Delenn into an alliance early on, says something like "Ours is the youngest race, yours the oldest—well except for the Vorlons of course—just imagine what we could do together!" I was actually thinking about this very thing a few days ago because that is just the kinda weirdo that I am. About how there are real young races in the Babylon 5 universe. And really in real life, our galaxy and universe, is pretty young still, so I was thinking that if you truly account for realism, all of the races in the B5 universe would be on equal level and probably none of them would be space faring yet, even the vorlons and shadows. Completely silly thoughts that don't matter, I know. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 16:55
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:The thing about Londo is that at the start of the show, he's right. As the show goes on, you see all his motivations, and they make sense. Continued Narn expansion is a thread, they nearly killed Londo's nephew with their conquest. The Centauri Republic is decaying, their quarantine on Na'ka'leen Feeders was lifted as a cost-cutting measure, endangering the galaxy. On the day Morden comes, he has to hand over a bunch of the Republic's cash over to some criminal dingus to recover a lost artifact of their former glory. You can see where he's coming from, and it's subtle at what point he slips into being wrong and doing wrong, and even when he changes his mind, he just can't turn things around. Is it enough that they made sense for Londo, though? He was a racial supremacist, and he just plain forgot about Na-toth for years. Yes, Londo was representing a failing empire which he wanted to fix, and drives a lot of the narrative, but was he ever in the right of any argument? The Centauri were a dying people.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 17:09
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:Is it enough that they made sense for Londo, though? He was a racial supremacist, and he just plain forgot about Na-toth for years. Yes, Londo was representing a failing empire which he wanted to fix, and drives a lot of the narrative, but was he ever in the right of any argument? The Centauri were a dying people. His opinion that the Centauri could be something better and more noble than a dying empire holding onto the scraps of old conquest and wallowing in nostalgia for the good old days was right, at least, and you can palpably sense the crushing guilt he has in the couple hours between Emperor Turhan's apology to the Narn and the beginning of the bombing of Quadrant 14 because he's realized how utterly he hosed it I think someone else said this earlier in the thread: Londo consistently makes the worst decisions in pursuit of a noble goal, while G'Kar consistently makes the best decisions in pursuit of selfish goals The Chairman fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Mar 14, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 17:19
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:Is it enough that they made sense for Londo, though? He was a racial supremacist, and he just plain forgot about Na-toth for years. Yes, Londo was representing a failing empire which he wanted to fix, and drives a lot of the narrative, but was he ever in the right of any argument? The Centauri were a dying people. "in the right" as in, morally right? I wouldn't say so. But he is "in the right" in that he is correct. Well except in killing Refa. Cause gently caress him. Also in getting rid of all the shadow stuff on Centauri Prime, including getting ready to die himself to keep the Vorlons from blowing up the planet. But no one in the show is 100% right or wrong on any moral scale. I think it is a slight but important distinction for his character that when he tells Mr Morden what he wants, he frames it in positive changes for his people. Not in negative changes in everyone else. There's plenty of other supremacists who's driving goal is framed entirely on hurting people they view as lesser. The Chairman posted:His opinion that the Centauri could be something better and more noble than a dying empire holding onto the scraps of old conquest and wallowing in nostalgia for the good old days was right, at least "I want my people to reclaim their rightful place in the galaxy. I want to see the Centauri stretch forth their hand again, and command the stars! I-I want a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power. I want to stop running through my life like a man late for an appointment, afraid to- to look back, or to look forward. I want us to be what we used to BE! I want…I want it all back, the way that it was! Does that answer your question?" I don't think Londo's goals here are really noble though. He wants the Centauri to be powerful, to be able to do conquest again, or at least have the power to do so. But with Londo, the cruelty isn't the point. CainFortea fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Mar 14, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 17:20
|
|
|
He basically wanted to Make Centauri Great Again
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 17:29
|
|
|
The fact that many of the main characters were deeply flawed but had good intentions and were not maliciously evil, was really great at the time. Very groundbreaking writing back then.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 17:30
|
|
|
The Chairman posted:I think someone else said this earlier in the thread: Londo consistently makes the worst decisions in pursuit of a noble goal, while G'Kar consistently makes the best decisions in pursuit of selfish goals I think this stops being true after G'kar is tortured and loses his eye. Or even before that, because he goes to find Mister Garibaldi for selfless reasons? Londo is a war criminal. G'kar aspires to be one, but he doesn't ever make it that far, does he. I said come in! posted:The fact that many of the main characters were deeply flawed but had good intentions and were not maliciously evil, was really great at the time. Very groundbreaking writing back then. Also this.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 17:40
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:so I was thinking that if you truly account for realism, all of the races in the B5 universe would be on equal level and probably none of them would be space faring yet, even the vorlons and shadows. Completely silly thoughts that don't matter, I know. How is this realism, things can be "young" in the grand scheme of things and still have very different ages on a relevant timescale.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 17:41
|
|
|
I always felt that "young" in relation to the Narns (and other species, for that matter) wasn't about (or at least JUST about) their biology, but their political relevance. The Narns only recently became independent, and not only independent, but important. Significant enough to get a seat at the Big Table! They're "young" because they're in the early steps of being a major power, acquiring territory and resources and making alliances with other important powers. The Centauri and Minbari, by contrast, are "old" because they already did those things a long time ago. It's as much about the feeling of everything being new as it is about how long ago their ancestors emerged from the primal sludge.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 17:47
|
|
|
MrL_JaKiri posted:How is this realism, things can be "young" in the grand scheme of things and still have very different ages on a relevant timescale. Because the universe evolves and changes on a scale of billions of years, and that is only for very tiny changes. In order for the B5 universe to make sense, it would have be millions instead. That is a significant difference in time.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 17:55
|
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:I always felt that "young" in relation to the Narns (and other species, for that matter) wasn't about (or at least JUST about) their biology, but their political relevance. The Narns only recently became independent, and not only independent, but important. Significant enough to get a seat at the Big Table! They're "young" because they're in the early steps of being a major power, acquiring territory and resources and making alliances with other important powers. The Centauri and Minbari, by contrast, are "old" because they already did those things a long time ago. It's as much about the feeling of everything being new as it is about how long ago their ancestors emerged from the primal sludge. It's a bit of both, but it's definitely less about literal number of years and more about level of maturity as a society/species.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 17:56
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:Because the universe evolves and changes on a scale of billions of years, and that is only for very tiny changes. In order for the B5 universe to make sense, it would have be millions instead. That is a significant difference in time. "Young" can just mean "younger than me" Also the universe changes every moment. The whole thing is only 14 billion years old. So 1 billion years isn't a "very tiny change". Also also, biological and evolutionary scale isn't the same as astrophysical structure scale.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 17:57
|
|
|
V-Men posted:He basically wanted to Make Centauri Great Again It's even a Republic.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 17:59
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:I think this stops being true after G'kar is tortured and loses his eye. Or even before that, because he goes to find Mister Garibaldi for selfless reasons?
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 18:03
|
|
|
CainFortea posted:"Young" can just mean "younger than me" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTrFAY3LUNw&t this video is a better explanation. We are actually really in the beginning of time. Biological and evolutionary scale isn't the same, but it's still super slow. None of this actually matters, but in reality a B5 like galaxy wouldn't really happen for another few trillions of years.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 18:37
|
|
|
You can't possibly say that with any certainty. We currently have a sample size for the development of spacefaring life of one.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 18:45
|
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:I always felt that "young" in relation to the Narns (and other species, for that matter) wasn't about (or at least JUST about) their biology, but their political relevance. The Narns only recently became independent, and not only independent, but important. Significant enough to get a seat at the Big Table! They're "young" because they're in the early steps of being a major power, acquiring territory and resources and making alliances with other important powers. The Centauri and Minbari, by contrast, are "old" because they already did those things a long time ago. It's as much about the feeling of everything being new as it is about how long ago their ancestors emerged from the primal sludge. Just like his planet he's young scrappy and hungry and he's not throwing away his shot
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 19:00
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:but in reality a B5 like galaxy wouldn't really happen for another few trillions of years. This is an absolutely silly thing to say. That video is just some theory crafting based on vibes. There is nothing at that suggests humanity is the first space faring intelligence in the universe.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 19:04
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTrFAY3LUNw&t this video is a better explanation. We are actually really in the beginning of time. Biological and evolutionary scale isn't the same, but it's still super slow. None of this actually matters, but in reality a B5 like galaxy wouldn't really happen for another few trillions of years. This video is nothing to do with your initial post, and makes some big big assumptions so even if it was relevant it wouldn't mean much in terms of "realism".
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 19:09
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:Because the universe evolves and changes on a scale of billions of years, and that is only for very tiny changes. In order for the B5 universe to make sense, it would have be millions instead. That is a significant difference in time. B5 original First Ones (Lorien's people, at least) were born immortal, naturally. It's unclear how much of what Lorien can do is technology and how much biology, but given that he doesn't seem to carry any devices or have any kind of manufacturing we could reasonably assume that his people could manipulate matter directly. They also appear to be able to travel through space without ships; we don't know whether they can access hyperspace or another mode of FTL. Immortal, galaxy-traveling beings capable of restructuring matter at an atomic level could absolutely engineer changes on a scale of millions of years, if we assume that that's unlikely otherwise. And "taking care of the Younger Races" is supposed to be a responsibility, presumably passed down from the original First Ones and probably applied by Lorien's people to races like the Shadows and Vorlons (given how they behave towards him).
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 19:21
|
|
|
Narsham posted:B5 original First Ones (Lorien's people, at least) were born immortal, naturally. It's unclear how much of what Lorien can do is technology and how much biology, but given that he doesn't seem to carry any devices or have any kind of manufacturing we could reasonably assume that his people could manipulate matter directly. They also appear to be able to travel through space without ships; we don't know whether they can access hyperspace or another mode of FTL. Yeah, this is basically how the B5 universe works, and there is nothing wrong with doing this at all. It makes for better sci-fi. Everything else is entirely academic and no one should read too much into it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 19:24
|
|
|
My understanding of the first ones was that they are technology based too, including their immortality. It is just that their technology is so advanced that it is indistinguishable from Magic by the younger races.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 19:29
|
|
|
Lorien was immortal, naturally. It's unclear how it worked out with the Vorlons and Shadows.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 19:30
|
|
|
I just didn't believe him. Revisionist self history isn't exactly uncommon in the show.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 19:34
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:Lorien was immortal, naturally. It's unclear how it worked out with the Vorlons and Shadows. Yes, but was Loriens Greatgreat... n~69 ..Grandpa Immortal? I think not.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 19:35
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:Yeah, this is basically how the B5 universe works, and there is nothing wrong with doing this at all. It makes for better sci-fi. Everything else is entirely academic and no one should read too much into it. Yes. It's a hand wave so the story can happen and that's fine.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 19:38
|
|
|
Alright, but if everyone in the show is an unreliable narrator, it makes for a very different viewing experience.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 19:39
|
|
|
Issaries posted:Yes, but was Loriens Greatgreat... n~69 ..Grandpa Immortal? Lorien is just grandpa, and that is all that matters.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 19:39
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:Alright, but if everyone in the show is an unreliable narrator, it makes for a very different viewing experience. The only reliable narrator is yourself
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 19:40
|
|
|
Iron Crowned posted:The only reliable narrator is yourself That isn't really how fiction works, as a rule, but thanks weird Covid man!
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 19:41
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:That isn't really how fiction works, as a rule, but thanks weird Covid man! I believe that was a joke.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 19:56
|
|
|
Poop. I am sorry, Covid man and Babylon 5 thread in general 
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 20:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 05:27 |
|
|
Rappaport posted:Is it enough that they made sense for Londo, though? He was a racial supremacist, and he just plain forgot about Na-toth for years. Point of clarification: I don't think there's evidence that Londo forgot about Na'Toth. Londo didn't know that she was in the dungeons. He presumably was aware that G'Kar had an aide, and then didn't have an aide any more, and I wouldn't be surprised if he never really thought about this very much. I always assume he had nothing to do with her capture and was completely ignorant of it until they find her. Londo may have forgotten about Ko'Danth. Actually, he might remember Ko'Danth, and then mix up her and Na'Toth.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2023 20:09
|
|
