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Personally my current headcanon is the Resonance includes an artificial Blessing, but unintentionally and unrealized. The Garleans went for an angle of 'okay here's an Echo-haver, here'a a non-Echo-haver, let's copy the differences from A to B', and by sheer chance that resulted in them accidentally including the Blessing because they happened to pick people who also had that. Explains everything that happens, and also lets Hydaelyn off the hook of 'why did you give Zenos your blessing, he's a garbage bag with legs'. But let's all acknowledge that these are headcanons to paper over an obvious retcon, none of us actually know poo poo about how this 'really' works and are all just trying to justify it to ourselves. I'd happily throw my interpretation out with counterevidence, but it doesn't exist, so.
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Mar 15, 2023 23:29
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"idk aether" is as good an explanation as any considering that the process is described as a copy-paste of someone's aetherial signature (along with a ton of extra aether from the sacrifice specimens).
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Mar 15, 2023 23:32
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Cleretic posted:Personally my current headcanon is the Resonance includes an artificial Blessing, but unintentionally and unrealized. The Garleans went for an angle of 'okay here's an Echo-haver, here'a a non-Echo-haver, let's copy the differences from A to B', and by sheer chance that resulted in them accidentally including the Blessing because they happened to pick people who also had that. Explains everything that happens, and also lets Hydaelyn off the hook of 'why did you give Zenos your blessing, he's a garbage bag with legs'. No, we know explicitly how it works, it was explained in game by Urianger. We also know the Echo alone provides protection because it has from the start and even when the Blessing was stripped. Like the only thing that isnt explained is how Resonants are different but considering they are just Cyber Newtypes the answer is almost certainly 'they have problems' You keep insisting it is a retcon but it is entirely in line with what we know throughout. 'The Echo and The Blessing are different' has been there since ARR.
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Mar 15, 2023 23:49
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ImpAtom posted:You keep insisting it is a retcon but it is entirely in line with what we know throughout. 'The Echo and The Blessing are different' has been there since ARR. Then explain why the Blessing is suddenly credited with the protection previously credited to the Echo in Endwalker, despite the fact that said protection is clearly identical, evidenced by the fact Zenos is fine. Please provide evidence, since you seem pretty confident it exists, and my main issue is that there isn't any.
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Mar 15, 2023 23:57
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Cleretic posted:Then explain why the Blessing is suddenly credited with the protection previously credited to the Echo in Endwalker, despite the fact that said protection is clearly identical, evidenced by the fact Zenos is fine. The part where MIdgarsormr stripped us of the Blessing of Light and we were still able to fight Primals? Edit: In fact Midgarsormr *literally says that.* The translation loses it but he says "This light... You protect him! Hydaelyn, you bestow more power on this one, who already bears the Echo!" in the Japanese script. Edit 2: Like literally the entire scene with Midgarsormr is him going "Oh, you have the Echo. I guess that is why you are so strong. Welp, I'm still not gonna help you, gently caress off puny human" and then the Blessing protects you and it makes him change his tune to "Oh, okay, Crystal Mom thinks you are something special, I want to see what exactly you can do without her powering you up." Again this is pre-HW! This has been the case for a while. The Blessing of Light was power on top of the power of the Echo. It is what lets us do stuff like tank Ultima or summon a big rear end sword of light and is an extra layer of protection over the existing power of the Echo, which is flat-out supposed to be our 'natural' power. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Mar 16, 2023 |
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Mar 16, 2023 00:05
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ImpAtom posted:The part where MIdgarsormr stripped us of the Blessing of Light and we were still able to fight Primals? ...I don't think that's the evidence you think it is. Midgardsormr's scene and us still having protection afterwards says 'the Blessing of Light does not provide protection against tempering, that's the Echo'. This is in keeping with Stormblood's Resonance, because that's a fake Echo, and Zenos and Fordola (and later Misija) use it for protecting against tempering. Then come Endwalker, suddenly they're saying the Blessing is responsible for this protection. It's the exact same thing requiring defenses--down to even being the exact same primal, both the Tower of Babil Zenos is in and the Tower of Zot the studies were focused on were both emanating Anima's tempering. The only difference is that suddenly everyone's saying it's the Blessing providing protection, not the Echo. There is no acknowledgement or explanation of this. That's the obvious retcon. The Echo still provides weirdo visions and language understanding (although they kinda forgot that last part), the Blessing still provides laser swords when dramatically appropriate, but Endwalker just randomly decided to shift the protection against tempering over to the Blessing and pretended it was always like that.
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Mar 16, 2023 01:13
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Cleretic posted:...I don't think that's the evidence you think it is. At no point did the game ever say "The Blessing of Light does not protect against tempering." The game said the loss of the Blessing did not mean we weren't unprotected, because the Echo protected us. And you are wrong that the Blessing protecting us from tempering was not brought up until Endwalker, because the entire plot of Shadowbringers was predicated on the idea that the Blessing of Light would keep the Lightwardens light from tempering us. The Exarch specifically said that it was the Blessing he needed. And that makes sense, because the First is actually full of people who have the Echo.
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Mar 16, 2023 01:26
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So, to summarize the argument I'm seeing here, one side is saying "Before it was only the Echo that protected from Tempering, and now it's only the Blessing, which breaks every plot so far", while the other side is simply saying "No, they *both* protect you from tempering, it has *always* been both."
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Mar 16, 2023 01:30
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They're both protection, the Blessing of Light being more protection does not suddenly retcon the Echo being resistance to tempering. The story hasn't, at any point, said the Echo does not give resistance to tempering. That the Blessing of Light is a stronger protection doesn't change the Echo situation at all. If they both provide protection, then the Blessing being better matters because it is also easier to replicate. BlazetheInferno posted:So, to summarize the argument I'm seeing here, one side is saying "Before it was only the Echo that protected from Tempering, and now it's only the Blessing, which breaks every plot so far", while the other side is simply saying "No, they *both* protect you from tempering, it has *always* been both." Yes, also that the story supports the reading that both protect and there is no retcon involved. There is no evidence of "The Echo does not protect from Tempering" because nobody ever says anything like that. They just focus on the protection of the Blessing in Endwalker because it is he thing they are trying to replicate, because replicating the ECHO involves literal monster human sacrifice science magic. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Mar 16, 2023 |
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Mar 16, 2023 01:32
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Cleretic posted:...I don't think that's the evidence you think it is. No they haven't. Literally they point out that people who have the Echo are the best to fight primals up to and including in the Endwalker role quests. It has never gone away. You saw them talking about being able to replicate the defensive abilities of the Blessing for the talismans and took that to mean they forgot about the Echo having that trait, which isn't true. Like flat-out this isn't even contradictory! The blessing doesn't just make swords, it explicitly lets you nullify aetheric binds or fetters on your character! No poo poo it is going to do the same thing to tempering which is aetheric power overriding your own.
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Mar 16, 2023 01:37
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Lord_Magmar posted:They're both protection, the Blessing of Light being more protection does not suddenly retcon the Echo being resistance to tempering. The story hasn't, at any point, said the Echo does not give resistance to tempering. That the Blessing of Light is a stronger protection doesn't change the Echo situation at all. Specifically, you can only have the Echo naturally of you are a reincarnation of one of the Ancients, otherwise it's mad science time, time to graft part of a reincarnated Ancient soul to you.
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Mar 16, 2023 01:40
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Cleretic you have created a Retcon that doesn't exist, because they happened to for a moment stop talking about the Echo defending against tempering, when they also explicitly are trying to copy the Blessing and not the Echo, after Shadowbringers shows that the Blessing is better protection than the baseline Echo. Also the only known way of replicating the Echo involves Soul Desecration and human sacrifice.sweet geek swag posted:Specifically, you can only have the Echo naturally of you are a reincarnation of one of the Ancients, otherwise it's mad science time, time to graft part of a reincarnated Ancient soul to you. Not even part, they didn't remove any part of Krile's soul (she would notice), they ripped up a bunch of OTHER SOULS, to cut and mould into a copy of Krile's Soul Echo. It is also plausible that people could work out how to awaken the Echo on its own, since it appears to primarily be soul manipulating magic, like Alisaie's Porxie. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Mar 16, 2023 |
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Mar 16, 2023 01:41
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Lord_Magmar posted:Cleretic you have created a Retcon that doesn't exist, because they happened to for a moment stop talking about the Echo defending against tempering, when they also explicitly are trying to copy the Blessing and not the Echo, after Shadowbringers shows that the Blessing is better protection than the baseline Echo. Also the only known way of replicating the Echo involves Soul Desecration and human sacrifice. Part of, copy of, whatever. It's not a nice thing. Nothing that comes out of Garlean labs is nice.
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Mar 16, 2023 01:50
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Like it's honestly not particularly hard to grasp. The Echo is an innate natural part of a person. You have it or you don't and it's connected in some way to having enough of a soul heritage that you go back to the Ancients. The Resonants do not actually have The Echo. They have a shitload of aether molded into the rough approximation of the Echo slammed into them. It grants similar powers but it's basically like a black box where they know it works but not *how* it works. The Blessing of Light is an active blessing, not an innate part of who the person is, and it stacks on top of the Echo. In-universe they assumed that one came with the other but again we have ARR-era text that explicitly states that was not the case and the people in universe were wrong. Midgarsormr considered the Echo your own natural power which is why stripping the Blessing of Light from you was separate from it. Both grant protection because at the end of the day they are tapping into similar wells, except one is magical genetic memory and the other is power being gifted by a being with absurd amounts of aether. The talismans came about because the cast realized that the two were not the same, in addition to figuring out how to cure tempering which in turn allowed them to reverse engineer protection. The good guys used the Blessing because it was a consensual magical spell that didn't involve murdering people's souls but it required the greatest minds in the world to come together with previously unknown knowledge to come up with. The bad guys used Resonance because it was quick, easy and didn't really need to be understood to work.
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Mar 16, 2023 01:55
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BlazetheInferno posted:So, to summarize the argument I'm seeing here, one side is saying "Before it was only the Echo that protected from Tempering, and now it's only the Blessing, which breaks every plot so far", while the other side is simply saying "No, they *both* protect you from tempering, it has *always* been both." Except that the second argument hasn't really been directly stated in the game, except for maybe in the Japanese version of one cutscene. In the English script the Blessing being a tempering protection different to the Echo was never really set up. (If I'm wrong, I'd love citation.) The protection from Light corruption makes sense in retrospect as the same thing, but was never really stated and it kinda feels to me like we got that information backwards; we used the Blessing to protect against aetheric corruption before we even learned aetheric corruption was the same as tempering. Incidentally that Midgardsormr cutscene's come up a lot as one with pretty severe differences between English and Japanese, so I'd love to see a direct translation to compare against.
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Mar 16, 2023 01:58
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It seems fairly obvious that at the beginning of Endwalker a switch was flipped and everybody in the setting, whether well-informed or not, begins asking for "a warrior with the Blessing of Light" instead of "a warrior with the Echo". I'm not really sure why this point is even being argued.
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Mar 16, 2023 02:06
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Cleretic posted:Except that the second argument hasn't really been directly stated in the game, except for maybe in the Japanese version of one cutscene. In the English script the Blessing being a tempering protection different to the Echo was never really set up. (If I'm wrong, I'd love citation.) The protection from Light corruption makes sense in retrospect as the same thing, but was never really stated and it kinda feels to me like we got that information backwards; we used the Blessing to protect against aetheric corruption before we even learned aetheric corruption was the same as tempering. The Blessing of Light was part of why we were able to tank a shitload of light-aspected Aether in Shadowbringers until even that started to strain the limits. You can argue that is where the retcon starts to come in but it's one of the areas where it specifically stands out. It also explicitly protects us from other big ol' piles of aether damage which is why it can tank Ultima. (Though that particular case strained even the weakened Venat.) Also: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/2tc5fk/comment/cny2lxw/ for a direct comparison.
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Mar 16, 2023 02:07
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Cleretic posted:Except that the second argument hasn't really been directly stated in the game, except for maybe in the Japanese version of one cutscene. In the English script the Blessing being a tempering protection different to the Echo was never really set up. (If I'm wrong, I'd love citation.) The protection from Light corruption makes sense in retrospect as the same thing, but was never really stated and it kinda feels to me like we got that information backwards; we used the Blessing to protect against aetheric corruption before we even learned aetheric corruption was the same as tempering. Tempering being Aetheric Corruption has been known since ARR. The fact that Aetheric Corruption can be reversed at all is a revelation from Shadowbringers. Also the second argument doesn't need to be stated by the game, since it is the logical result of the current game story, rather than a retcon of the Echo providing resistance that simply goes unremarked upon when the capabilities of the blessing are more relevant. Edit: It boils down to this, the story has not at any point explicitly stated the Echo does not give protection from Aetheric Corruption, it has also not explicitly stated both the Echo and the Blessing of Light give protection in one sentence. However, because it has not stated the Echo does not give protection, there is no retcon involved in the focus on the Blessing of Lights protection. They would need to state the Echo does not give protection for the retcon to actually exist. They have not done so, thus the logical stance supported by FFXIV is that both give protection and Endwalker is more focused on the Blessing because it is easier and more ethical to replicate than the Echo. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Mar 16, 2023 |
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Mar 16, 2023 02:08
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Rand Brittain posted:It seems fairly obvious that at the beginning of Endwalker a switch was flipped and everybody in the setting, whether well-informed or not, begins asking for "a warrior with the Blessing of Light" instead of "a warrior with the Echo". I'm not really sure why this point is even being argued. Because that isn't the case and multiple characters still mention the Echo as being an important protection from Primals? It is literally the entire reason why Fordola is still running around because she has the Echo and is using it to fight Primals. It has not suddenly been retconned unless you ignore the specific parts where it is brought up. Lord_Magmar posted:Tempering being Aetheric Corruption has been known since ARR. The fact that Aetheric Corruption can be reversed at all is a revelation from Shadowbringers. Yes, we've known that from the start. It is why those tempered by Leviathan started to turn into fishmen and poo poo.
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Mar 16, 2023 02:09
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Just repeat to yourself, "it's just aether, I should really just relax"
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Mar 16, 2023 02:25
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Antivehicular posted:Just repeat to yourself, "it's just aether, I should really just relax" Not going to lie, I'd watch the Evil Dr. Venat (and TV's Argos) sending cheesy movies to Emet-Selch, Elidibus and Lahabrea in the Zodiark of Love. Hythlodaeus is also there but just to gently caress with Emet.
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Mar 16, 2023 02:28
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ImpAtom posted:Not going to lie, I'd watch the Evil Dr. Venat (and TV's Argos) sending cheesy movies to Emet-Selch, Elidibus and Lahabrea in the Zodiark of Love. Give Hyth the "usually taking care of the ship but sometimes appearing for bizarre asides using what little processing power he can spare" role, which is pretty close to his role in non-Elpis canon
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Mar 16, 2023 02:30
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Cleretic posted:Except that the second argument hasn't really been directly stated in the game, except for maybe in the Japanese version of one cutscene. In the English script the Blessing being a tempering protection different to the Echo was never really set up. (If I'm wrong, I'd love citation.) The protection from Light corruption makes sense in retrospect as the same thing, but was never really stated and it kinda feels to me like we got that information backwards; we used the Blessing to protect against aetheric corruption before we even learned aetheric corruption was the same as tempering. Except for even in the English version he strips us of the blessing and we...fight 2 whole primals without it restored just fine. So something has to be protecting us from the tempering. Perhaps that thing they say in the script does? I think it's called Reverb act 3?
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Mar 16, 2023 02:35
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Oh poo poo no it's The Echo, that's right!
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Mar 16, 2023 02:36
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Except for even in the English version he strips us of the blessing and we...fight 2 whole primals without it restored just fine. Honestly the primals in that period clearly aren't tempering people on our level of contact anyway, so it's not actually useful as evidence. Most notably, Bismarck's fight has the Ironworks right up near it the whole time (which is also true about Alexander), I believe some non-Echo havers were around for Ravana although I'd have to check. Shiva confirmably wasn't going for tempering. The first primal we see post-Midgardsormr that confirmably actively tempered was Thordan, but not only was he not trying against us, but we had the Blessing anyway so it's not a relevant discussion point.
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Mar 16, 2023 03:13
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Cleretic posted:Honestly the primals in that period clearly aren't tempering people on our level of contact anyway, so it's not actually useful as evidence. Most notably, Bismarck's fight has the Ironworks right up near it the whole time (which is also true about Alexander), I believe some non-Echo havers were around for Ravana although I'd have to check. Shiva confirmably wasn't going for tempering. Only the WoL and Ysayle went to confront Ravana, specifically because Ravana was tempering everything.
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Mar 16, 2023 03:40
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Cleretic posted:Honestly the primals in that period clearly aren't tempering people on our level of contact anyway, The literal text of the game is that you and Ysalye go face Bug Dad alone because he and the overmind were on a tempering spree. Please I beg you actually play the game.
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Mar 16, 2023 03:47
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sweet geek swag posted:Only the WoL and Ysayle went to confront Ravana, specifically because Ravana was tempering everything. See, that's more useful and digestible information than saying we fought three, specifically for that reason, thanks for confirming. I can explain away Bismarck and Shiva, I can't do that for Ravana! I feel like Ravana is the most forgettable primal, but it's hard for me to figure out why. Maybe because he doesn't get a proper arc and just kinda turns up, but unlike the other primals that 'just kinda turn up' (King Mog, Susano), Ravana isn't a total non-sequitir where that's almost the joke.
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Mar 16, 2023 03:50
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Cleretic posted:I feel like Ravana is the most forgettable primal, No one but you forgot.
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Mar 16, 2023 03:51
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Yeah, isn't the whole thing with the Gnath the same as the Vanu Vanu, where previous coexistence was disrupted by (probably Ascian-influenced, obvs) primal summoning, tempering, and the fresh tempered getting warlike? Like, IIRC things with the dragons and the Gnath were never friendly, but Ravana is what tipped the scale towards active conflict. I might be misremembering this, though.
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Mar 16, 2023 03:53
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Cleretic posted:See, that's more useful and digestible information than saying we fought three, specifically for that reason, thanks for confirming. I can explain away Bismarck and Shiva, I can't do that for Ravana! He gets overshadowed by Susanoo, who has the same basic 'fight me!' theme but has that really cool sword QTE. Ravana is a fun enough primal, but time has kind of made him blend in a bit.
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Mar 16, 2023 03:53
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Antivehicular posted:Yeah, isn't the whole thing with the Gnath the same as the Vanu Vanu, where previous coexistence was disrupted by (probably Ascian-influenced, obvs) primal summoning, tempering, and the fresh tempered getting warlike? Like, IIRC things with the dragons and the Gnath were never friendly, but Ravana is what tipped the scale towards active conflict. I might be misremembering this, though. The Gnath managed to kill a dragon that was flying over their territory and this success led to them summoning/turning their leader into Ravana as they intend to now war against the dragons who they have historically been absolutely terrified of.
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Mar 16, 2023 03:55
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sweet geek swag posted:He gets overshadowed by Susanoo, who has the same basic 'fight me!' theme but has that really cool sword QTE. Ravana is a fun enough primal, but time has kind of made him blend in a bit. Ravana's a different tone of Fight me and has a banger of a song where it's essentially him singing at you alongside the background song. He's still a highlight.
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Mar 16, 2023 03:58
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Lord_Magmar posted:The Gnath managed to kill a dragon that was flying over their territory and this success led to them summoning/turning their leader into Ravana as they intend to now war against the dragons who they have historically been absolutely terrified of. Ah, okay, that makes sense. I should hit the Encyclopedias and refresh my memory of some of this stuff.
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Mar 16, 2023 03:59
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Ravana's a different tone of Fight me and has a banger of a song where it's essentially him singing at you alongside the background song. He's still a highlight. Oh, I agree, but I've also replayed Ravana relatively recently. From the perspective of someone who hasn't played it since launch I can see the two fights getting confused.
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Mar 16, 2023 04:30
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Antivehicular posted:Yeah, isn't the whole thing with the Gnath the same as the Vanu Vanu, where previous coexistence was disrupted by (probably Ascian-influenced, obvs) primal summoning, tempering, and the fresh tempered getting warlike? Like, IIRC things with the dragons and the Gnath were never friendly, but Ravana is what tipped the scale towards active conflict. I might be misremembering this, though. Yeah, this is broadly correct. I think the reason Ravana sort of falls back in the collective memory story-wise might be because he doesn't bring anything new to the table. You can look at each primal we met in sequence and, with a bit of analysis, see how it influenced our mental image of what a primal could be or do. Ifrit's our introduction, Titan's story tells us how dangerous they can be if left unchecked, Garuda's the first with historical roots (although we learned that later), King Mog disavows us of the notion that they have to be elemental, so on. Ravana's the first primal that I genuinely feel like we learned nothing new about primals from. After him the next one that brings nothing new to the table conceptually is Lakshmi, but she's extremely influential on the story, which even Ravana doesn't do; in terms of story influence he mostly exists as a very big version of an 'errand you need to do to gain trust' quest. Also sweet geek swag is right, they're similar enough that Susano pretty handily eclipses him as 'fight-horny battle god', which doesn't exactly help his case.
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Mar 16, 2023 04:43
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Cleretic posted:Yeah, this is broadly correct. If I had to add what Ravana brings as new to the table, it's that there can be Primals born from new concepts not just old faiths. Ravana didn't exist until Heavensward as a concept to the Gnath, a dragon crashed into their hive and they killed it and born from that was the idea that they could kill, be strong, conquer. That's what Ravana is and why he's important, he's a brand new faith given form, a belief in change, in Lord Ravana who will lead them to total victory. He's the counterpoint specifically to Thordan being the same idea for Ishgard. Ravana might well have been an important Gnath within the One Mind elevated to godhood because he led the effort against the injured dragon, although this detail is never fully explored.
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Mar 16, 2023 05:23
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sweet geek swag posted:He gets overshadowed by Susanoo, who has the same basic 'fight me!' theme but has that really cool sword QTE. Ravana is a fun enough primal, but time has kind of made him blend in a bit. REJOICE IN THE GLORY OF COMBAT > WILD AND PURE AND FOREVER FREE 
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Mar 16, 2023 05:32
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SirSamVimes posted:REJOICE IN THE GLORY OF COMBAT > WILD AND PURE AND FOREVER FREE what even is susano anyway? ravana is a cool bug and has cool butterflies.
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Mar 16, 2023 07:20
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Zeruel posted:what even is susano anyway? ravana is a cool bug and has cool butterflies. In terms of design I think he's, like, a crustacean or isopod in a suit of ornate armor. Keeping in mind that he's a kojin-envisioned deity summoned from their treasure hoard, I think you're generally supposed to identify him more by his armor to the point where you miss the creature inside, similar to how the kojin's armor puts on such airs that you miss that they're not turtles.
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Mar 16, 2023 09:03
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