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Jerkface posted:if you pull out a grenade in the middle of a horde you're going to die. Of course if you're moving in to a horde or create enough space yea the grenades are dope. Like the key thing is that as a vet you don't want to get stuck in the actual melee meat grinder, because you want to be able to do heavy powersword swings with it fully activated. you want to be able to grenade for your teammates to buy space. Ogryn and Zealot both have ways to create their own space and the vet does not, they have dogshit tools for that.
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Mar 16, 2023 22:38
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Valtonen posted:Agree; I just wanted to mention this since the nades for zealot ( which are ofc better for CC But non-replenishing) need similar prep time yet they are in the argument, so omitting them felt dishonest. I agree with your sentiment but theres actually just so much more you can do as a zealot if you need to grenade in a melee. if you want to grenade in a melee as a zealot you can: gain toughness just by being in proximity to enemies and eat some attacks to do it, use your massive stamina and push efficiency to make space, ult to knock back enemies while pulling your grenade out, use your massive CC melee weapons to make space, eat the damage because you currently have 50% DR due to a crit and regenerating toughness, use your passive to be functionally immortal and grenade then attack enough to heal back to full etc Vet you can: Ult and maybe fire off a bunch of bolter shots? Push once and hope its enough to give you room? Push twice and deplete your entire stamina pool and hope its enough? Insert name here posted:You absolutely can get away with it with a well timed push or two and being quick about it. Won't help if there are enemies too far to your sides/rear but that's generally a bad time for anyone, regardless of class. Thats the exact situation you'd want to grenade though. I don't need to grenade as zealot unless its to rescue a teammate, even if I'm surrounded! Vet doesn't need to grenade if everything is in front of him as thats the ideal spot since you can hack dodge back activate PS hack dodge back activate PS Jerkface fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Mar 16, 2023 |
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Mar 16, 2023 22:39
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.Z. posted:
Right yes, mixed them up!
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Mar 16, 2023 22:43
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Jerkface posted:I agree with your sentiment but theres actually just so much more you can do as a zealot if you need to grenade in a melee. if you want to grenade in a melee as a zealot you can: gain toughness just by being in proximity to enemies and eat some attacks to do it, use your massive stamina and push efficiency to make space, ult to knock back enemies while pulling your grenade out, use your massive CC melee weapons to make space, eat the damage because you currently have 50% DR due to a crit and regenerating toughness, use your passive to be functionally immortal and grenade then attack enough to heal back to full etc VT2 had 'blessings' to grant additional grenade options, this game sorely needs that.
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Mar 16, 2023 22:55
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Valtonen posted:Agree; I just wanted to mention this since the nades for zealot ( which are ofc better for CC But non-replenishing) need similar prep time yet they are in the argument, so omitting them felt dishonest. you're also omitting the fact Vet needs a feat to have a "replenishing supply" I think it's one of the better feats on that tier imo but it isn't like every vet will pick that or the "elite kills in coherency" feat either.
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Mar 16, 2023 23:12
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big cummers ONLY posted:Fixes like these are so trivial that unpaid volunteers can see the need, develop a fix, and implement it, while Fatshark cannot. Wild. be nice to not have to tell my group I'm a gun wizard, looking forward to the vitriol flowing all on its own
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Mar 16, 2023 23:15
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Jerkface posted:https://www.nexusmods.com/warhammer40kdarktide/mods/82 I like this one better - https://www.nexusmods.com/warhammer40kdarktide/mods/81 Press E to swap between melee and ranged. That way you can still know if you have an Ogryn who's bringing a shield so you can go spend 20 minutes doing something else with your time. CaptainAssholay fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Mar 17, 2023 |
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Mar 17, 2023 03:08
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Evil Kit posted:you're also omitting the fact Vet needs a feat to have a "replenishing supply" I think it's one of the better feats on that tier imo but it isn't like every vet will pick that or the "elite kills in coherency" feat either. Please, every veteran runs the same build with zero coordination because there is a very clear best in class when it comes to feats There is no real build diversity at all.
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Mar 17, 2023 04:47
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Back Hack posted:Please, every veteran runs the same build with zero coordination because there is a very clear best in class when it comes to feats There is no real build diversity at all. There's a tiny bit of diversity in the level 30 feat, but I agree, there are quite a few "best in slot" choices for the various levels.
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Mar 17, 2023 06:32
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dropping a frag at your feet as you go down helps, but you should be throwing those all the time with the regen talent and the aura talent. Wish it helped psykers though. I want a Tanith long dagger option.
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Mar 17, 2023 06:36
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Back Hack posted:Please, every veteran runs the same build with zero coordination because there is a very clear best in class when it comes to feats There is no real build diversity at all. Some builds want dead shot or sniper. Sniper is ridiculous on the helbore depending on the level.
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Mar 17, 2023 06:45
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Back Hack posted:Please, every veteran runs the same build with zero coordination because there is a very clear best in class when it comes to feats There is no real build diversity at all. If I see a bolter or plasma vet I'm not gonna assume they have an unlimited supply of grenades because getting 50% faster reload speed on those is pretty important. Also you can't expect anything out of the  . If I'm playing with goons it's a different story of course.I think a lot of Vet feats are actually pretty good and only like, two feat levels have an obvious BiS with the other two choices being incredibly niche or just useless.
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Mar 17, 2023 13:51
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I've been having a lot of success with vet on Damnation with a 510+ rating Catachan sword; It still takes forever to kill anything but the attack speed, cleave, and stagger are juust in the right spot to be able to hold a chokepoint or corner without having to reposition constantly, which is vital when a horde is trying to target a downed teammate or you're the last man standing. The counter even has some use against maniacs/bulwarks, but otherwise you're better off spamming swings or pushing than trying to pull it off.
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Mar 17, 2023 14:30
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I actually do not use the reload feat with bolter because its only valuable if you have ammo in the mag. Its very needed for plasma gun tho. Tier 1 Confirmed Kill - The best one IMO there are more than enough elites/specials/big guys to get your toughness back Exhilarating Takedown - weakest option IMO At Arms Length - Some people use this for the constant regen, seems to have biggest benefit when you're in those ranged standoffs Tier 2 Sniper - Great, scaling up to bonus 20% damage? Tactical Reload - Situationally good Demo Stockpile - Great Tier 3 Bio-Optic Targeting - Some vets run this and its very useful Demo Team - I always take this though Covering Fire - Probably worst in slot Tier 4 Unwavering Focus - Lots of vets swear by this I think its kind of a trap except for 3 builds (autogun, autopistol, shotgun) Duck and Dive - Pointless Camo - THE BEST mwa ha ha ha Tier 5 Frag Storm - The worst but kind of useful still Deadshot - Second best One After Another - The best one IMO because it helps keep your ult up time up Tier 6 Sustained Fire - The worst one IMO Counterfire - The best one The bigger they are... - I run this one with bolter exclusively because Im mostly killing all the bulwarks, crushers, and reapers
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Mar 17, 2023 15:22
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Unwavering Focus is the best by far in T4... If you're playing Counter Fire Vet. The ability to push forward into shooter groups to take aggro for your teammates to push up is incredibly value and BiS by far for that build. Camo optics is for cowards and people who can actually stay still. (I can't stand still lol) Imo Duck and Dive wouldn't be pointless if Deadshot wasn't also on the same tier as elite kills let you reload fast. But it is, so why bother taking Deadshot ever lol.
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Mar 17, 2023 15:44
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Unwavering focus is such a trap IMO - its only good in the specific scenario where you are running out in the open guns blazing with your ult up and being fired at. It turns off the second you swap to a grenade or melee and doesn't do anything if you're not being shot. Its obviously really strong, as zealot got their 75% DR nerfed to 50%. However, zealots were using theirs while in melee which makes sense as its hard to block 100% of incoming in a scrum. Its comparatively easier to suppress enemy shooters or kill them with your gun to stop them from firing or dodge/slide which you should be doing anyways. I do take it sometimes when I am running braced or autopistol because you're gonna wanna get up close anyways but honestly just having the elite toughness regen tends to be more than enough to cover it. This is one where like I'm definitely at odds with most in the community, but I just find camo way more universally powerful. Works vs melee and ranged, allows you to attack uncontested, do objectives uncontested, revive uncontested, reload in tight spots, prep a grenade in a tight spot, bug out enemies pathing (especially fun around knee high structures that hordes fall over or split level designs that make the enemy jump up and down). I know why most pubbies hate the idea of it, because they think they're going to have to deal with an extra 25% of enemies but I find that misguided in practice. The vet should be killing more than their share (if you're vet and not topping the offensive scoreboard except against maybe flamer zealot ur doing it wrong) anyways and even if a large horde or whatever is targeting your team you should be eliminating them before they actually deal the damage. quote:I'm posting so much cuz I just love darktide but enjoy this mod spotlight: Jerkface fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Mar 17, 2023 |
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Mar 17, 2023 16:23
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You are absolutely a minority. Yes, the more situationally useful and clear cut feat that lets you do the job you should be doing (killing shooters) is more powerful. This may be more personal FPS habits but imo if you aren't constantly moving you're playing wrong, and standing still is the ultimate trap. Sure you get the benefit of enemies being more willing to ignore you but they don't totally ignore you, and in the situations where you *are* the target already it does literally nothing for you. Camo is also generally more intangible of a perk and harder to quantify so I'm not gonna knock someone for preferring it over 75% toughness DR, but saying Unwavering Focus is a trap is kinda lol. Even with a MK12 you should be using it to wade out into the open to stop shooters destroying your team, and Confirmed Kill means you don't have to worry about dying ever. Barring random melee dudes of course.
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Mar 17, 2023 16:38
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Jerkface posted:This is one where like I'm definitely at odds with most in the community, but I just find camo way more universally powerful. Works vs melee and ranged, allows you to attack uncontested, do objectives uncontested, revive uncontested, reload in tight spots, prep a grenade in a tight spot, bug out enemies pathing (especially fun around knee high structures that hordes fall over or split level designs that make the enemy jump up and down). I agree with this, I feel like I've avoided a few situations when everyone would be stuck behind cover getting shot at by gunners and everyone's got zero toughness and there's a sniper around everyone will take significant damage trying to chip through the enemy shooters. If you're in the right position with camo, you can nicely take out ranged and specials one after another to quickly clear a problem out for your team. While ranged damage resist would also help, I think camo has a little bit of an advantage when also used for revives and stuff like you say It feels very powerful to me when used with a nice, large magazine precision shooting gun like headhunter autogun or lasgun or helbore lasgun or laspistol while shooting enemies don't take cover from you
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Mar 17, 2023 16:46
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Camo is good for when you feel like you're the main character and everyone else should just support you. Unwavering focus is good if you want to be a team player and soak up ranged damage as the character best suited for it. Obviously it only works with counterfire but shooters are such a huge problem on heresy and above that it's my go to feat with every weapon.
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Mar 17, 2023 16:53
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I’ve never used camo once because it seemed like a “please carry me” toggle
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Mar 17, 2023 16:56
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Evil Kit posted:You are absolutely a minority. Yes, the more situationally useful and clear cut feat that lets you do the job you should be doing (killing shooters) is more powerful. Well I mean thats the thing with camo, you don't need to use it all the time! Outside of Action Quake 2 & Team Fortress most of my FPS play are games like CS, Rainbow Six Siege, PUBG, Battlefield where you can gain a lot by strategically NOT moving. And camo works on demand, if you just stop moving it instantly activates. Only enemies who are already in their attack animation will keep going. I move around A LOT, probably more than the average pubbie with Camo, but when I stop I gain a lot of advantage over the map and what to do next. The reason I say UF is a trap is because the vet is not a tank, there is nothing saying that you will be getting shot by all the ranged enemies as you don't have a taunt, even if you did have a way to be targeted you still don't actually want to be hit, and the best way to play the game is to play to avoid being shot in the first place. Like why wade out into the open with a lasgun if you can kill all the shooters without going into the open? If you're wading out in the open you should be dodging while moving up and shooting anyway! Its like an emergency feat. You only gain the benefit if you gently caress up X Y and Z and actually start getting shot and have your ult active at the time. And actually the one use case where you'd really want it (dreg stalkers, how i hate them!!) it doesn't work because they don't extend your ult! So you have no way to actually force enemies to hit you, you don't want to be hit to begin with, and the feat only activates under a very specific circumstance. I dunno, seems like a trap pick! Owl Inspector posted:I’ve never used camo once because it seemed like a “please carry me” toggle I carry damnation games using camo, this is like the meme view of it or the braindead pubbie way of playing with camo. Tagichatn posted:Camo is good for when you feel like you're the main character and everyone else should just support you. Unwavering focus is good if you want to be a team player and soak up ranged damage as the character best suited for it. I am the main character as I will be the best player in any damnation lobby if I'm playing with pubbies - but you're actually wrong, Camo is incredibly useful for supporting your team. See below ! And sorry I disagree that anyone on the team should be TRYING to soak up damage. Everyone should be playing to take no damage. Jerkface posted:One thing I don't see people doing as much is if you're running camo on vet (which you should its OP) - you should be positioning yourself a few steps ahead of your team and they should naturally be positioning slightly behind you / drawing enemies past you. With camo you don't get targeted and what this does is funnel enemies by you in a completely no stress environment where you can just focus on hacking away at the horde with your powersword. This is great for big horde segments or anywhere with a choke point. In a choke the vet should be by the choke entrance and everyone else inside the choke. You will blend everyone coming in through the choke for free and cleaning up whatever is left is very easy for the rest of the team. Exactly Imagine the scenario where your zealot or ogryn has charged in some where and are being shot by ranged enemies. How are you getting those ranged guys to shoot at you to make use of your DR? You don't, better to just kill them all as quickly as possible. \/\/ Jerkface fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Mar 17, 2023 |
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Mar 17, 2023 16:58
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Tagichatn posted:Camo is good for when you feel like you're the main character and everyone else should just support you. Unwavering focus is good if you want to be a team player and soak up ranged damage as the character best suited for it. I see the direction you are coming from but I think you are underselling the ability to clear groups quickly because you can keep shooting with impunity, while sometimes with unwavering focus you aim at some enemies and five scabs running attack you from behind because your ogryn is off hunting plasteel or bulwark gets in your way, which you can avoid if they are just targeting something else, and it isn't like unwavering focus actually taunts ranged enemies to focus you Not to say that unwavering focus is purely bad trash that you should never pick (it is also good) but I think ignoring camo because it can sometimes be used poorly or be used for trolling is throwing the baby out with the bathwater EDIT: jerkface had a bit more detail on what I was thinking with his diagram, you're in position to take out problems from behind your crates or whatever, just a short distance ahead/to the side of the team Captainicus fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Mar 17, 2023 |
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Mar 17, 2023 17:02
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Jerkface posted:Well I mean thats the thing with camo, you don't need to use it all the time! Outside of Action Quake 2 & Team Fortress most of my FPS play are games like CS, Rainbow Six Siege, PUBG, Battlefield where you can gain a lot by strategically NOT moving. And camo works on demand, if you just stop moving it instantly activates. Only enemies who are already in their attack animation will keep going. I move around A LOT, probably more than the average pubbie with Camo, but when I stop I gain a lot of advantage over the map and what to do next. I'd like to write my thoughts up better maybe when I'm not phone posting, but considering my main FPS comp game is Apex Legends, grew up playing TF2 mostly and I generally like action shooters more I can see why we differ on this so much lol. Too much ingrained strafing in my gaming.
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Mar 17, 2023 17:10
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Camo is great if you're a piece of poo poo who wants to offload damage on the rest of your team.
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Mar 17, 2023 17:16
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I don't like Camo because 90% at least of the users of it don't understand how to use it and the effect it therefore has is to dump an additional 25% ranged damage on the other members of the team, which is bad. Camo requires a skilled user and a team prepared to set up the vet to use; Unwavering Focus Just Works and always does its job, so on the balance I know which one I'd rather bring and what I hope other people are using unless we've specifically coordinated it.
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Mar 17, 2023 17:17
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I'm going to side with Kit on this one. Part of the difficulty with camo is that you are offloading your incoming damage on to the other members of the team. This is potentially problematic as the vet is the best suited for tanking incoming gunfire with confirmed kill/exhilarating td, unwavering focus, and counterfire. With that setup, you are very survivable against gunner packs, which should be the primary focus of the vet. I think this boils down to gun/playstyle choice. I get it works for you, and that's awesome. Personally, I'm going to take and use the lowest skilled options because I'm just bad at the game, and XII + counterfire is very strong and very straightforward.
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Mar 17, 2023 17:22
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Jerkface posted:I am the main character as I will be the best player in any damnation lobby if I'm playing with pubbies - but you're actually wrong, Camo is incredibly useful for supporting your team. See below ! And sorry I disagree that anyone on the team should be TRYING to soak up damage. Everyone should be playing to take no damage. Toughness damage is not real damage actually.
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Mar 17, 2023 17:23
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z17l3BzkQIM Wizards Tower 2.0 let's loving go
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Mar 17, 2023 17:32
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Tagichatn posted:Toughness damage is not real damage actually. Losing your toughness leads you to taking real damage. Like you only want to tank 1 melee hit @ 100% and taking any ranged damage means any melee hit = HP damage. Legit Businessman posted:I'm going to side with Kit on this one. Part of the difficulty with camo is that you are offloading your incoming damage on to the other members of the team. I don't think this is true though. What do you mean tanking incoming gunfire? You have no way to force the enemy to shoot you. You just mean standing in the open and hoping to get shot at? The only way you actually use UF effectively is to advance far beyond your team to draw all the shooter aggro. Or have everyone else hide/fight somewhere else while you are the only visible target of shooters. In that situation its obviously a goated feat. I do that if im running braced autogun, just run right at everyone like a maniac, sure, but is that the wisest course of action on Damnation? And you're not really "offloading damage" onto your team. 1. Camo is not 100% vs shooters so you still draw aggro as the shooters may only have you in targetable range and it requires a teammate to be within both the enemies range and range of your character to work. 2. You should be doing something if camo is activated. 3. This premise assumes all the incoming attackers actually get their damage off which isn't going to happen because you're a vet and you're doing your job. Last post about this for now, good talk everyone!! Sneaky Edit to get around last post: You're not using camo to avoid ranged fire you're using it so the approx 1 million melee enemies on damnation don't stop you from doing your job or for getting very easy free damage on enemies (see above) - If the enemy goes past you to get to your teammates, but never actually makes it to them, your teammates have not had any damage offloaded onto them. All camo does is reduce your threat, or conversely increase your teammates threat, it doesn't MAKE them take damage. Just like UF does not make you absorb damage for your teammates. If you activate UF and you're standing even or slightly behind your teammates, you may absorb 0 damage. Its not a taunt!!! \/\/ Jerkface fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Mar 17, 2023 |
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Mar 17, 2023 17:37
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With Camo, if you're drawing aggro, you're going to get toughness broken very quickly on Damnation, since you have no DR. Additionally, since you have to be holding still, you lock your teammates in position as well in your scenarios - they need to drawing said fire so the feat actually does something. Which means that they're always going to be absorbing fire meant for you, or what's the point of the feat at all? Camo forces you to offload damage to allies or it's functionally a dead feat. Unwavering Focus allows you to absorb damage for allies, or at worst make it so that damage you would be taking anyway doesn't do you any harm. There are loads of situations where Camo is useless or actively detrimental; there are basically no situations where Unwavering Focus doesn't at least benefit you. EDIT: The best use of camo is sneak completing reboots while everyone else dies. A++ Jerkface posted:You're not using camo to avoid ranged fire you're using it so the approx 1 million melee enemies on damnation don't stop you from doing your job or for getting very easy free damage on enemies (see above) - If the enemy goes past you to get to your teammates, but never actually makes it to them, your teammates have not had any damage offloaded onto them. All camo does is reduce your threat, or conversely increase your teammates threat, it doesn't MAKE them take damage. Just like UF does not make you absorb damage for your teammates. If you activate UF and you're standing even or slightly behind your teammates, you may absorb 0 damage. Its not a taunt!!! Increasing threat on your teammates is increasing damage on them, because nobody's perfect and someone will screw up and get hit more than they expect. Camo will make your teammates take hits they otherwise would not have. Cheap free hits on hordes are basically the least relevant thing for a vet versus being able to stand and fight a shooter squad without subjecting your allies to additional risk. Enemies do not laser focus on the closest person; they spread damage across everyone within their firing range. UF just means you need to stand in range of ranged enemies - which is a very long range! You don't have to do jack to draw fire, you naturally just will at all but the furthest engagement ranges. Alternatively, your melee guys can take the position you put the camo vet in in your diagram and let you fight people at further range while the melee gets stuck in with them instead. K Prime fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Mar 17, 2023 |
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Mar 17, 2023 17:44
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I can see the merits of both but I gotta say, i agree with jerkface that you need to always be playing with the goal of taking 0 hits. I still used the DR talent because my dumb rear end is going to take hits, but while I would position myself to draw fire if I could, I never wanted to be standing and trading shots until the fight was almost over anyway. I suspect the talents are actually well balanced and it's a playstyle choice overall, maybe with one of them being a clear winner if you are a very good player.
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Mar 17, 2023 17:48
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Lemme take a stab at some points before laying this to rest for myself: 1. While there's no way to *force* enemies to attack you (on any class), it's easy to position yourself to manipulate shooter/gunner aggro so you're taking the majority of the fire. As any class really, but on Vet it's more important to force it if you're using UW. How do you do it? Just be the first to walk forward and engage, it's really simple imo. On Heresy and Damnation that might be harder to force if there's mixed groups around and just not pure shooters where you need to be more careful of being rushed by melee elites, and the sheer volume of shooters may either take you down or will just aggro on other players anyway. Maybe Fatshark programmed in a limit for aggro, maybe they didn't who knows. 2. Toughness is a resource, and knowing when to spend some of it more efficiently eliminate a threat is a cool way to offer up a trade off when it comes to gameplay choices. UW reinforces this choice and I dig it because it rewards aggressive play. The latter part here is me admitting my bias for aggressive play in any game, so I know this affects my opinion on this quite a bit. 3. Tbh unfamiliarity with Camo has made me not nearly as aware of what you can do with it, so I may try giving a go more often! Jerkface's arguments for it make it sound more like an actual balanced choice than simply a BiS situation option no matter what for UW. I don't agree it's OP personally even after reading said arguments tho but it requires further testing for me at least. 4. We can all agree Dodge and Dive sucks.
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Mar 17, 2023 18:04
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Arc Hammer posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z17l3BzkQIM That Sofia model is 100% just Sienna's model. Which is fine, I'm not going to get all worked up about a little bit of asset reuse on new content in a game as old as VT2, but it's kind of funny to me for some reason.
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Mar 17, 2023 18:07
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Evil Kit posted:4. We can all agree Dodge and Dive sucks. It doesn't make sense as a talent for vet either because dodging doesn't even cost stamina and theres no real playstyle for vet that benefits from "sprinting" and using your stamina to begin with. Then when you compare it to what else is in that tier its a joke. Vet is already so strong it'd be funny if they replaced it with something else, but they 100% should replace it with something that benefits the bolter/plasma gun playstyle, as I think UF trends towards close range rapidfire and camo towards lasgun/DMR. Edit: like maybe if it gave back stamina on kill or weakshot hit or crit or something you could pair it with deadshot
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Mar 17, 2023 18:13
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Jerkface posted:It doesn't make sense as a talent for vet either because dodging doesn't even cost stamina and theres no real playstyle for vet that benefits from "sprinting" and using your stamina to begin with. Then when you compare it to what else is in that tier its a joke. I think you're supposed to pair it with Deadshot by sliding and dodging ranged fire but like it's so awkward to actually use why even bother? And it doesn't really do much by itself which kills whatever niche it might have.
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Mar 17, 2023 18:26
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Evil Kit posted:I think you're supposed to pair it with Deadshot by sliding and dodging ranged fire but like it's so awkward to actually use why even bother? And it doesn't really do much by itself which kills whatever niche it might have. Its absolutely intended to pair with Deadshot and for that it can be fun playing as a revolver, laspistol or braced gunslinger. But that's a weird niche loadout at the best of times.
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Mar 17, 2023 19:24
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I didn't make this
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Mar 17, 2023 22:05
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I am a big fan of Focus. It actually reduces the amount of damage incoming to your team and the situations where it’s bad are situations where camo would probably be worse.
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Mar 17, 2023 22:50
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My precious slashy son
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Mar 17, 2023 23:42
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 I just got this an emperors gift, I was like "oh sweet a tier 4 blessing to consume!" then I saw the stats distribution 
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Mar 18, 2023 00:06
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