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tbh, if I was an HR-tier recruiter, I'd just ignore all of the applications that put in a filler number and work with the other 50 applications I have who followed instructions. Their job is to filter down applications to those nominally qualified at an acceptable tco before sending it to the real hiring manager. Somebody already not playing by the rules or complicating things just gets dropped.
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Mar 7, 2023 00:38
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Methanar posted:tbh, if I was an HR-tier recruiter, I'd just ignore all of the applications that put in a filler number and work with the other 50 applications I have who followed instructions. This is why I tell HR to let me do all the screening. Its rare for HR to toss people because of a "pass" on the salary field, in my experience. But they will sometimes make similar stupid moves so I always insist on doing the culling.
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Mar 7, 2023 00:46
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Dik Hz posted:If you’re going to do that, why not just wipe the whole database. The only good ATS is a dead ATS. 
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Mar 7, 2023 01:35
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Methanar posted:tbh, if I was an HR-tier recruiter, I'd just ignore all of the applications that put in a filler number and work with the other 50 applications I have who followed instructions. Counterpoint: there are no "rules", only stupid arbitrary decisions you've made, that these applicants have rightly worked around. Good job filtering out the better candidates in favor of those who are likelier to be initially browbeaten into accepting lower pay, though. Mission accomplished!
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Mar 7, 2023 01:45
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Is it wrong for HR to screen out candidates with lateral thinking skills? Is it wrong to ensure that the new Chief People Officer is a B or C tier candidate with a box ticking mentality? I leave these complicated questions in the capable hands of the new Chief People Officer.
Beefeater1980 fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Mar 7, 2023 |
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Mar 7, 2023 01:52
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Methanar posted:tbh, if I was an HR-tier recruiter, I'd just ignore all of the applications that put in a filler number and work with the other 50 applications I have who followed instructions. Edit: also there are jobs I’d do for no salary if the benefits were good enough. What number should I put in the field?
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Mar 7, 2023 01:54
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"If I was an HR-tier recruiter"
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Mar 7, 2023 03:29
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Thing is, I’ve already had the HR screen, and due to my mentioning that I’ve got other offers she wants me to progress to formal interview, so I’d hope that submitting the form with ‘1’ for salary wouldn’t cause too many issues at this stage…
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Mar 7, 2023 05:43
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Methanar posted:tbh, if I was an HR-tier recruiter, I'd just ignore all of the applications that put in a filler number and work with the other 50 applications I have who followed instructions. Lmao How many honestly qualified applications do you think most roles get? Throwing otherwise good people out of the loop for nonsense is a recipe to not meet your hiring goals. Corporate recruiters are judged on their ability to fill roles. Which isn't to say they're terribly good at that. But if you can't meet the hiring plan eventually you get sacked.
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Mar 7, 2023 07:01
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An offer I received was 7% lower than my current salary. Imagine I could push it up a bit but I was hoping for a 10-15% increase from what I’m on now, which I doubt they’d go for. At this stage is it worth letting them know what I’m on, saying the offer is below my current salary in vague terms (“this is below what I am earning now, I was looking for £x”), or just say “I was looking for £x”?
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Mar 8, 2023 12:55
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Tell them what they need to pay you to get you to agree to work for them. You don't need to anchor, and you probably shouldn't. First of all, straight up telling them what you make now is a good way to get them to counter with marginally more than that at best. If you tell them "Sorry, that's below what I'm making now, I am looking for X" that masks what you make now for about 2 seconds until they reply "so what do you make now?" which you can deflect if you're good, but few people are actually good enough to pull that off. So just stick with "I am excited by the prospect of joining your rubber chicken factory, but I need an offer for $X to leave my current role. Please let me know if that is possible." Semantics but: you weren't looking for X, you ARE looking for X.
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Mar 8, 2023 14:14
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Skimming previous posts you can avoid mentioning your own pay at all and just point out that the offer is significantly below the going market rate. Maybe don't even say "I want X", since if I'm reading your posts right they're approaching half the market rate. Plus you're in the UK and inflation has gone apeshit here, so really you should probably be setting X at ~110k.
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Mar 8, 2023 14:37
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It’s a little tricky in that the offer I got already is for a more senior position, but in a startup-type company that to me has risks I don’t want to bother with due to various circumstances. It’s also on project types I’m not so keen on. The recent offer is for a similar role to mine, but considering my experience, the fact this company seems to be in need of my type of role, and inflation, I was hoping for £85-90k. I’m on 73 and they offered 68. I highly doubt I could get them up to 85, but I suppose it doesn’t hurt to try. I’ve also got another interview for a similar role - if they offer similar then at least I’ll know I’m not underpaid in my current role, which is something. I don’t dislike my current job so it wouldn’t be a bad thing if I stayed.
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Mar 8, 2023 14:50
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I mean, they gave you a number now you counter. I'd probably counter pretty aggressively and maybe even let them know their counter is below market but that would be to just try to shortcut the inevitable billion back and forths and get them to throw in the towel if they aren't looking to pay market rates, but it may not be the most optimal strategy. Tell them you are considering other offers that you've been given. I probably wouldn't share what the other offer is, but there's a chance it might knock some sense into them about the market.
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Mar 8, 2023 15:30
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I've been negotiating with a late stage startup (Company B) for the last 3 months. I have played it tight to the chest regarding salary expectations, primarily because I expected the offer to have a substantial equity component so the base number wouldn't be apples to apples. I've gotten through 8 interviews and they've made it clear that I'm the top candidate. When the recruiter was verbally trying to feel me out last week before putting together the formal offer, he tossed out some numbers "mid 230s to mid 240s". At that point I anchored high by casually saying that I'm looking at my final pay stub from 2022 and made 299k not including the 25k in RSUs I am awarded every year. That did include a substantial bonus for a 4 month period of extended work hours including a period of 80-95 hours per week between Thanksgiving and New Years but I didn't mention that part. He fell over himself trying to sell me on the potential value of the equity etc. I finally got a formal offer and I'm pretty torn on it. I actually enjoy my current job (Company A) and really like the people that I work with. Hell I hired most of them. I have a pretty visible role in the company and that keeps my ego well fed. However, it is a huge grind and demands lots of hours and late night wakeup calls (24/7 heavy industry manufacturing industry). Company B sounds really exciting and has convinced me that they have a product that will be successful. They are currently manufacturing and selling a value-added alternative to an in-demand material that has a lot regulatory and societal support. Their production today is on a small scale and my job will be to build out and execute the commissioning plan for their first industrial sized operation over the next 2 years. Currently around 200 people and the CEO told me he expects to go public shortly after starting up the new facility in a couple of years. Current 409a valuation is over 3Bn, approximately 3x multiples every fundraising round which they've done about every 1.5 years. I drank the kool-aid and think there's a good chance the ISOs will end up being worth somewhere between the $1mm they're "worth" now with upside to ending up as "generational life changing money" in 4-5 years. But I still gotta pay the bills and enjoy life in the mean time.  Company B also uses annual equity grants as end of year bonuses for high performers but I didn't include that above. They have offered liquidity events at the last couple of fund-raising rounds allowing employees to sell X% of their holdings. "We recognize you can't buy a house with options that are worth a lot on paper". The options expire in 10 years or 3 months after I leave the company. Aside from the guaranteed vs potential money, the commute is a huge hangup for me. It is at minimum 4 days per week in the office and I personally prefer in-office work anyway. I just get a lot more done and benefit quite a bit from the hallway conversations. But I despise commuting and Company B's normal business hours are 9-5. Mrs. 3million and I agreed that moving closer isn't going to be considered a possibility when making this decision. Company B has been pitching the more steady, predictable pace (excluding the commissioning period of the new plant) and there's definitely something to be said for not having to worry about getting calls in the middle of the night. The 3 month expiration upon departure is also a downer. If I were to leave pre IPO, I wouldn't be able to afford the $500k out of pocket to exercise the options on top of paying AMT without a mechanism to sell the shares immediately. Golden handcuffs indeed. It's great to have two good options but arrg this is why I don't often entertain offers, the mental anguish of having to decide is almost worse than having the option at all! If ya'll wouldn't mind not quoting the details of this post, I'd like to edit out some of them out later thanks
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Mar 18, 2023 15:03
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Is the ISO number a typo? 930k shares at a FMV of $47.50/share would be over $44M, which is a lot.
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Mar 18, 2023 15:13
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30k shares, $16.5 strike, $47.5 FMV as of the latest fundraising round. 30,000 x (47.5-16.5) = $930,000 Or maybe I'm not evaluating them right? Obviously none of this includes taxes.
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Mar 18, 2023 15:17
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Ah that makes more sense. That's a very healthy initial grant, and given they're likely a Series D company and a healthy 409A, I'd say it's a de-risked start-up. But, since it's on paper, I wouldn't look too much at them. Removing that, the TC is much better where you are now, though not fully guaranteed. I'd be looking at the job itself. Is the potential ISO payout worth the longer commute and starting over at a new place? Only you can say
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Mar 18, 2023 15:24
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If you hate commuting half as much as I do then don't do it. I wouldn't do it. You'll never get any refund on all those extra hours of your prime you spent frustrated and/or miserable.
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Mar 18, 2023 16:33
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spf3million posted:I've been negotiating with a late stage startup (Company B) for the last 3 months. I have played it tight to the chest regarding salary expectations, primarily because I expected the offer to have a substantial equity component so the base number wouldn't be apples to apples. I've gotten through 8 interviews and they've made it clear that I'm the top candidate. When the recruiter was verbally trying to feel me out last week before putting together the formal offer, he tossed out some numbers "mid 230s to mid 240s". At that point I anchored high by casually saying that I'm looking at my final pay stub from 2022 and made 299k not including the 25k in RSUs I am awarded every year. That did include a substantial bonus for a 4 month period of extended work hours including a period of 80-95 hours per week between Thanksgiving and New Years but I didn't mention that part. He fell over himself trying to sell me on the potential value of the equity etc. I'd ask for an extra week or two of PTO from B if you go that route. If you have faith in the ISOs holding up value it seems like a no brainer. It's roughly a wash outside that. It sounds like B is an opportunity to skill up for whatever the next role would be. What would you be doing in that time at A?
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Mar 18, 2023 16:38
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I’m also curious if you fully buy that it’s only 9-5 M-F. I feel like being in an integral role and helping them make major growth/transition could easily require extended hours as well.
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Mar 18, 2023 17:55
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"You couldn't pay me a million bucks to do that commute" only literally. The bay area is wack
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Mar 18, 2023 18:06
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:I’m also curious if you fully buy that it’s only 9-5 M-F. I feel like being in an integral role and helping them make major growth/transition could easily require extended hours as well. This. But also the job itself sounds like it’s compelling, and you have to ask yourself what that is worth.
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Mar 18, 2023 20:26
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Spf3million, what’s your career path look like at company A? There any further growth available? (Hopefully without relocating) If it was me I would stay put, but for the others in this thread I know where you work, so my opinion is colored by that information. I’m also someone who just wants a comfortable career and doesn’t like to job hop. That grind though is no joke. My BiL worked 70 days straight, overnight 12 hour shifts last year. The money is nice but drat it’s a grind. The chance at those ISO’s from B though… depending on your situation it might be worth the gamble. What are the odds of an actual ipo vs acquisition? The bonus and pension at company A though hard to walk away from. Tough call.
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Mar 18, 2023 20:58
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It sounds like the stage of his career is one in which growth won't really come from salary anymore, but equity in various situations. The question is if THIS opportunity is the right one or not. I personally have no idea how to answer that, but very likely if they want to make a move it will be at one of these kind of things.
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Mar 19, 2023 01:42
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When a company can't hit a pay range, what alternate negotiating options are available? Extra PTO or other things? I'm in a situation I feel like is the opposite of everything on the first page: I'm making average pay for my role outside a specific subset of my industry, but way above average for that subset of the industry. I have a few job options that are really compelling for different reasons, with one that's a favorite. I can also remain where I am. Of the opportunities: My current place is above a few of them (my place is probably 1.5x the total compensation of the lowest end offers), one place is probably 1.5x my current pay. The jobs I'm most excited about are on the low end, so a pay cut. I'm trying to think of alternate options for negotiation, things that they might be able to put into the offer to make it more compelling when it's past their pay cap. These are all good jobs, with good people, etc, but it's an industry that can be just as driven by the product, and I'm definitely more excited about some of these products than others. I also had people point out that if I go for the place that's 1.5x my current pay, I'm basically going to be locking myself out that subset of the industry.
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Mar 19, 2023 02:22
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:I’m also curious if you fully buy that it’s only 9-5 M-F. I feel like being in an integral role and helping them make major growth/transition could easily require extended hours as well. Had a similar thought given it’s billed as a start up, no matter what stage. Best case it’s 9-5 plus another ~2.5 hours per day commuting.
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Mar 19, 2023 03:06
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Isn't the usual way to negotiate with options to ask for a bonus that covers the exercise cost and the tax implications, and/or to go for RSU's instead?
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Mar 19, 2023 05:39
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Eric the Mauve posted:If you hate commuting half as much as I do then don't do it. I wouldn't do it. You'll never get any refund on all those extra hours of your prime you spent frustrated and/or miserable. Epitope posted:"You couldn't pay me a million bucks to do that commute" only literally. The bay area is wack REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:I’m also curious if you fully buy that it’s only 9-5 M-F. I feel like being in an integral role and helping them make major growth/transition could easily require extended hours as well. Jordan7hm posted:This. Democratic Pirate posted:Had a similar thought given it’s billed as a start up, no matter what stage. Best case it’s 9-5 plus another ~2.5 hours per day commuting. leper khan posted:I'd ask for an extra week or two of PTO from B if you go that route. If you have faith in the ISOs holding up value it seems like a no brainer. It's roughly a wash outside that. It sounds like B is an opportunity to skill up for whatever the next role would be. What would you be doing in that time at A? skipdogg posted:Spf3million, what’s your career path look like at company A? There any further growth available? (Hopefully without relocating) Lockback posted:It sounds like the stage of his career is one in which growth won't really come from salary anymore, but equity in various situations. The question is if THIS opportunity is the right one or not. I personally have no idea how to answer that, but very likely if they want to make a move it will be at one of these kind of things. But. I'm 38 and I've been saying I want to "retire" at 40 forever. Over the years that has morphed into wanting to be "able to retire" at 40 and likely continue working while being selective with what I do. The reality is that unless something goes horribly wrong we're going to end up "rich" no matter what happens. We're less than a year away from dual incomes and don't plan to have kids. But if the ISOs hit, it's the difference between a comfortable life vs a comfortable like plus a villa in Tuscany. It's definitely first world problems but where else can we talk about this outside of BFC? TheParadigm posted:Isn't the usual way to negotiate with options to ask for a bonus that covers the exercise cost and the tax implications, and/or to go for RSU's instead?
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Mar 19, 2023 15:10
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I know of 2 people that got those top(ish)of the pyramid jobs with company A and both of them had to relocate to places they didn’t want to live and wait for the chance to get back. One guy spent 4 years in ND….. the other took 6 years before they got back to where they wanted to be. I’m guessing that’s not something you want to do. The money from what I’ve heard is insane.
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Mar 19, 2023 21:00
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I'd probably revisit the moving question if you can, but unless you specifically want a new challenge and are interested in playing equity lottery games, I don't think that much of the rest of the offer sounds all that compelling, and much of what you are listing as upside (chill schedule!) can be false promises or can easily change.
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Mar 20, 2023 14:28
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Chainclaw posted:When a company can't hit a pay range, what alternate negotiating options are available? Extra PTO or other things?
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Mar 20, 2023 14:41
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Dik Hz posted:One thing you can negotiate for is steps on a seniority ladder, if one exists. Oftentimes PTO or other perks are graduated based on seniority. I don't know if this is an actual problem with it, or just companies using it as an excuse, but I had two places tell me that, due to Washington state salary transparency laws, they can't move job titles up / down in seniority. The job has to match the public listing and the listed salary. This is going from non-games software to games software, so the pay is just much lower. In some cases, a role that's one level of seniority higher than mine would pay less than half of a traditional software job. So it's tough to argue "bump me up 4 job levels from the offer." I even had places immediately turn me down based on my current place. The phone screen with that recruiter was "I see you're at company X. We're games, we can't get anywhere close to that pay, we'll only talk to you if you're willing to take a pay cut to <a number that's 2/5 of what I make now>"
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Mar 20, 2023 15:06
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If you're trying to get into games then you just need to accept that the pay is "gently caress all" and the conditions are " ".
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Mar 20, 2023 15:21
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Chainclaw posted:I don't know if this is an actual problem with it, or just companies using it as an excuse, but I had two places tell me that, due to Washington state salary transparency laws, they can't move job titles up / down in seniority. The job has to match the public listing and the listed salary. Arquinsiel posted:If you're trying to get into games then you just need to accept that the pay is "gently caress all" and the conditions are " Pay is better in mobile, but still not FAANG levels. I've gotten multiple offers from AAA companies this year that would be a 50% cut and I'm already in games.
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Mar 20, 2023 15:38
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Arquinsiel posted:If you're trying to get into games then you just need to accept that the pay is "gently caress all" and the conditions are " I'm willing to get back into games because conditions have improved since the mid '00s when I was regularly working 80 hour weeks and sometimes 100 hour weeks. Most places I've talked to are against crunch because every game is a service game now. It's not like the rush to a boxed product launch of 80+ hour weeks and then fire everyone after the game ships. Now they need people to maintain the game post-release and provide updates. That plus all the people who left games due to crunch resulted in bigger gaps at senior roles that companies want to re-fill. It's just a tough decision between: Take a job that will vastly advance my skills, on a project I would be very excited about, but pay way less than what I make. Or, move farther out of games to a standard software job that wouldn't really build new skills and just rely on existing skills, for a 30% pay raise. Or I guess stay where I am, half a foot out of games, which is still on the table. I'm talking to friends who stayed in games, love what they do, but they're looking at their equivalent of a $150k a year job at 30-40 years of experience to their friends who left games for traditional software jobs. It sounds like people with ~40 years of coding experience are able to pull down around $700k a year. I'm much less experienced than that, and based out of the US, so the pay swing isn't nearly as much for me as a choice between $700k and $150k. It's not an easy decision, and it's why I've been basically spending every waking hour thinking about it. Building budget spreadsheets, figuring out where we could cut back, etc. leper khan posted:Pay is better in mobile, but still not FAANG levels. I've gotten multiple offers from AAA companies this year that would be a 50% cut and I'm already in games. Outside of a few games I find really compelling, I'd rather stay where I am than most mobile studios, unless it was a pay bump. I did some time in mobile development, and I did not enjoy the predatory nature of a lot of it.
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Mar 20, 2023 15:43
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40 years of coding experience?
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Mar 20, 2023 15:48
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Lockback posted:40 years of coding experience? Yeah, 30-40 years. My buddy's at roughly 30 years, and he's got friends from when he started out that had been coding a while. I'm at just under 20 years of experience, which is why I'm talking to people farther down the path than me. Edit: ideally everyone has mentors in their role with more experience. However, his feedback is mixed. Definitely get back into games, but also don't go back into games because those software jobs paying potentially $500k is a lot of money to turn down, even if you're working for a mega company everyone hates on software everyone hates. So the way I look at it is, neither answer is wrong, and hopefully the other options will still exist in 5-10 years when I'm ready for the next job jump. Chainclaw fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Mar 20, 2023 |
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Mar 20, 2023 15:52
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ok, so I think your perspective on the industry is kinda skewed, as I wouldn't bucket people differently between "20 years" vs "30-40 year" of experience. At that point, you have the skills or not. I'm not looking at a 45 year old saying "Man, this dude will be great once he gets more time under his belt". You can obviously still grow in any role at any age, but it's not like you have to have coded during the Reagan Administration to qualify for a job. There's also FAANG(MANGA) and everything else. If that's your target, right now is a BAD time but more power to you. But, the advice for those jobs are very different than any other job, there is a specific skillset you need to hone and you don't do it with office experience. There are others who are much better at walking you through that in the CoC sub-forum. But someone with 4-8 years experience can pull 500k+ there if they have the right skills, but for every person who gets that job there are 10, 20, 50 who don't. Then you have "Game Industry" vs "Everything Else", which is much closer together but still some differences. And honestly, the last 6-10 years they've been getting closer and closer. Still, all things equal, leaving the games industry means somewhat more money, better working conditions, and generally more stable job. Lots of caveats there but I feel pretty good about that. And yes, I think Mobile is probably better than most other game industries. But for "Boring Job" If you have 20+ years of experience (and you are actually good, say Upper-end Senior/Architect/Staff-level) your targets should probably start at ~$150k-$200k and go up (multiply that if you're in the Bay area, or a smaller but still significant multiple if you're in high demand cities) plus some kind of Equity/Stock structure that can be anywhere from 20% to double that salary. From what I understand the game industry is usually less, but the skills and roles are very similar. I'd get it out of your head that when you get to your 50s or 60s then high paying jobs start coming up. If your at the level you say you are, you are in your highest-paying phase.
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Mar 20, 2023 16:11
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Lockback posted:
This is very true and applies to all sectors in my experience. If you stay in a IC role you should be pretty much at the top by 20-25 years of experience. Most people find their top end at that point in their career.
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Mar 20, 2023 16:32
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