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Professor Shark posted:Metal grots go for as much as nobz on eBay, I’ll have to start some planning when I’m done with Intercessor Kill Team 2.0 If you can do 3D printing, Red Nebular on Patreon has some grots that you might really like. https://www.patreon.com/hobgoblindigital/posts 
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Mar 18, 2023 02:12
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Awesome stuff to consider! I’m still thinking of taking them as regular boyz with a Stormnob but it’s good to think about the commando option
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Mar 18, 2023 12:02
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Well I just bought some plastic Nob arms and I think I’m going with the Nobz-Count-As-Regular-Boyz Killteam. I figure my roster will be: 1 Nob: Kombi Skorcha, Powerklaw 2 Shoota Boyz 1 Rokkit Boy (will need to mod) 6 CCW Boyz This leaves me with the choice of an additional Nob or a couple Gretchen, I’m leaning towards the Gretchen just for fun. It probably isn’t competitive, but will hopefully be fun!
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Mar 19, 2023 00:10
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Hello, long time TG stalker and very occasional poster, but, I have a question or two I feel compelled to ask: Is Kill Team 2e actually any good? Kill Team 1e (not including the 40k supplements ofc) was some of the best fun I had in wargames and we actually had multiple sizable gaming communities built around it that have mostly gone dark since 2e came out. Has New Kill Team actually changed and/or improved from launch? Is it worth getting into and putting forth the emotional labor to try and wrangle some people together to play it? Secret bonus question: why tf hasn't GW revived Mordheim or BFG? Both seem like they'd be goldmines in this era of beloved skirmish games.
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Mar 19, 2023 21:25
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Paranoid Dude posted:Hello, long time TG stalker and very occasional poster, but, I have a question or two I feel compelled to ask: "KT21 is GW's most balanced game" is what I hear on those warhams podcasts. I play it with my friends and have a blast doing so. Well I play vet guard, so I hope my friends don't have many blasts 
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Mar 19, 2023 22:10
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They've been making balance changes fairly often to react to tournament outcomes. New Kill Teams have been collected in the Annual, and there's a really interesting Intercessors team available on the web. Check it out, it'll show off a lot of what a team looks like now https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/5a7RlS5vbFWvaWZD.pdf And there's a KT Lite PDF, the new rules in 3 pages: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/08/16/download-the-core-rules-for-kill-team-and-a-new-intercessor-team-for-free/
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Mar 19, 2023 22:22
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Paranoid Dude posted:
Mordheim seems to be having an online moment as I'm seeing more and more stuff popping up. It seems like an obvious choice for a reboot, as GW could go the KT route selling big boxes with a few minis and lots of terrain for megabucks. But it's all just speculation at this point.
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Mar 20, 2023 02:48
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Paranoid Dude posted:Secret bonus question: why tf hasn't GW revived Mordheim or BFG? Both seem like they'd be goldmines in this era of beloved skirmish games. Beffer posted:Mordheim seems to be having an online moment as I'm seeing more and more stuff popping up. It seems like an obvious choice for a reboot, as GW could go the KT route selling big boxes with a few minis and lots of terrain for megabucks. But it's all just speculation at this point. what would be the functional difference between a new mordheim and warcry? BFG seems to me it'd be like AT or AI only even more niche, and those are pretty niche games to begin with.
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Mar 20, 2023 03:42
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Cease to Hope posted:what would be the functional difference between a new mordheim and warcry? Mordheim is much more grounded than Warcry. I like Warcry, but Warcry campaigns don't function the same way as Mordheim does. I see what you're saying, but the game would be much more comparable to fantasy Necromunda than Warcry. I think BFG would have a much better time than AT because AT is just a humans vs humans snoozefest. Listbuilding is fun and the gameplay is shockingly deep, but AT lacks the panache and the flair of BFG's wide range of differing ship types.
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Mar 20, 2023 04:19
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fallingdownjoe posted:I like this a lot! It’ll make a nice change from a lot of the dour, dirty schemes I see on rats. Do share the whole team when they’re done! crosspostin' GreenBuckanneer posted:
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Mar 20, 2023 04:26
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Finished up another model for my Rohan force. 
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Mar 20, 2023 04:36
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Paranoid Dude posted:Mordheim is much more grounded than Warcry.  TBF Warcry seems more comparable to Kill Team than Neceomunda so I get what you mean
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Mar 20, 2023 04:58
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Played Underworlds for the second time tonight, really had the rules underneath us this time. It’s a lot of fun!
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Mar 20, 2023 05:11
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Paranoid Dude posted:Mordheim is much more grounded than Warcry. I like Warcry, but Warcry campaigns don't function the same way as Mordheim does. I see what you're saying, but the game would be much more comparable to fantasy Necromunda than Warcry. i guess that was a bad way to phrase that question, since i get that the difference is ongoing managed campaigns. mordheim just has the big obstacles that it was also a human vs human snoozefest (unless you broke out a bunch of black library teams that didn't really have a good reason to be in mordheim) and so badly balanced that it barely worked (a problem exacerbated by the presence of non-human teams), on top of the already existing management nightmare that is necromunda. there wouldn't be a lot of difference between warcry and what GW would sell for a hypothetical new mordheim, except that they'd probably have the same problem that necromunda does: people would constantly want new stuff for their old gangs rather than having the freedom to do something that isn't tied to those first half-dozen or so concepts, which both limits what can be done and turns the game into a long-tail stock nightmare. i could see a new BFG i guess. KT, AT, and (for all its faults) Underworlds are proof that GW can make a game that feels like it was designed this century. (AI too but they just cribbed WOW/XW while making it worse.) they'd need to do something about the fact that people are going to want to play as space marines but space marines are totally lacking in an interesting visual or mechanical identity, and they're going to have to figure out some mechanical identities for factions that aren't "gently caress the movement rules lol" or suicide bombers: the faction. i strongly suspect one of the main reasons that AT is all humans versus humans is because of the difficulty of finding design space for new factions, and a BFG that's just imp navy versus chaos would be pretty niche. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Mar 20, 2023 |
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Mar 20, 2023 08:53
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By those standards, do you consider Necromunda to be a Human vs Human snoozefest? Warcry meets the same criteria too, for the most part.
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Mar 20, 2023 09:33
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Cease to Hope posted:i guess that was a bad way to phrase that question, since i get that the difference is ongoing managed campaigns. mordheim just has the big obstacles that it was also a human vs human snoozefest (unless you broke out a bunch of black library teams that didn't really have a good reason to be in mordheim) and so badly balanced that it barely worked (a problem exacerbated by the presence of non-human teams), on top of the already existing management nightmare that is necromunda. there wouldn't be a lot of difference between warcry and what GW would sell for a hypothetical new mordheim, except that they'd probably have the same problem that necromunda does: people would constantly want new stuff for their old gangs rather than having the freedom to do something that isn't tied to those first half-dozen or so concepts, which both limits what can be done and turns the game into a long-tail stock nightmare. I think the Imperial fleet is the Space Marines of BFG. They look awesome and are ubiquitous in the fluff. The actual Space Marines don't have the same draw, which isn't a problem that needs solving.
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Mar 20, 2023 09:48
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Mordheim was the game we wished we could have played in high school, however terrain was the big obstacle. The Mordheim comic is available for free online now. It’s fine, really gets the feel for the setting and cut throat characters. I thought the ending where the main characters betray and kill each other just at the gates of the city while leaving, only for the narrator in the gibbet to hop out and take their plunder was funny. In other news, I ordered a couple Gretchen instead of another Nob. I’m leaning towards a denim blue, dark grey, and white armour paint scheme with red highlights, though I still want to check some examples out
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Mar 20, 2023 10:46
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I wonder if GW isn't releasing BFG because of licensing terms with the computer game developers. That may sound bonkers (why wouldn't they want the games to promote one another?) but the lead-in time for the first BFG game would have been long enough for the licence to be signed back under Kirby's tenure, and he believed that video games would cannibalise tabletop sales. There have been on-and-off rumours for years, but any BFG game would have to be completely incompatible with the old minis or GW would lose sales to the swarm of third party manufacturers that have sprung up over time. That might make a re-release unpalatable, or just low priority forever.
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Mar 20, 2023 11:55
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Loxbourne posted:I wonder if GW isn't releasing BFG because of licensing terms with the computer game developers. That may sound bonkers (why wouldn't they want the games to promote one another?) but the lead-in time for the first BFG game would have been long enough for the licence to be signed back under Kirby's tenure, and he believed that video games would cannibalise tabletop sales. They wouldn't need to do much apart from re-releasing the old kits. Apart from some exceptions (Tau) most of the kits (especially Imperial and Chaos) stand up very well. There are a lot of 3D printed things out there but most would cost the same as a GW offering but at best look the same.
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Mar 20, 2023 12:01
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GreenBuckanneer posted:crosspostin' Thanks for sharing - these are great! I hope they serve you really well
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Mar 20, 2023 12:08
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Loxbourne posted:I wonder if GW isn't releasing BFG because of licensing terms with the computer game developers. That may sound bonkers (why wouldn't they want the games to promote one another?) but the lead-in time for the first BFG game would have been long enough for the licence to be signed back under Kirby's tenure, and he believed that video games would cannibalise tabletop sales. I think it's simply a financial decision - they feel that they couldn't make enough money to justify it. TBH, like a lot of GW games, the concept was great, but the execution was somewhat lacking. It was fine for what it was (space Age of Sail) but adding Eldar in broke a lot of stuff and was like putting Tomahawk systems into Wooden Ships and Iron Men. Paranoid Dude posted:Mordheim is much more grounded than Warcry. I like Warcry, but Warcry campaigns don't function the same way as Mordheim does. I see what you're saying, but the game would be much more comparable to fantasy Necromunda than Warcry. Only if GW doesn't flub Mordheim like they have with Necromunda. I am an unabashed original NM fan, but I feel like GW hopped the 40K train with NM17 and it's just too many books at this point, and no clear way to get started with new players. The game unfortunately went from scrappy gangs trying to eke out a living to house armies with access to extremely powerful weapons and tech. As much as I would love some new Mordheim weirdos, I would like for GW to just let Mordheim sleep in its shallow grave so we can continue to enjoy it for what it is.
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Mar 20, 2023 13:02
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berzerkmonkey posted:Only if GW doesn't flub Mordheim like they have with Necromunda. I am an unabashed original NM fan, but I feel like GW hopped the 40K train with NM17 and it's just too many books at this point, and no clear way to get started with new players. The game unfortunately went from scrappy gangs trying to eke out a living to house armies with access to extremely powerful weapons and tech. As much as I would love some new Mordheim weirdos, I would like for GW to just let Mordheim sleep in its shallow grave so we can continue to enjoy it for what it is. This is 100% how I feel. I played a ton of LRB Necromunda in like 2010-2012, and whatever was out in 1999-2002 or so. Then Mordheim in 2002-2004. Old Necromunda and New Necromunda are totally different beasts. The entire thing was contained in one pdf before, with the differences in gangs basically being their starting gear, and which skills they can get, so that they diverged more from each other as the games went on. This whole 'one book per gang, and they all have insane options and high tech gear' is not the Necromunda I recognize, and just the amount of rules and books makes it impossible to start. Mordheim was very much Fantasy Necromunda in that they both played the same way. Have a group, play a game, get money, injuries, experience, everyone got stat bonuses and the heroes got skills, and you could get new equipment for them all. The new Warcry gets a bit closer to having a decent campaign, but it's still locked to the original stats of the characters, only one can gain anything resembling skills, and models can only get one extra item, which is a temporary bonus which goes away. The Warcry rules are also a lot more arcade-y, it's hard to explain. KillTeam : Warcry :: Old Necromunda : Mordheim
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Mar 20, 2023 13:58
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Goonhammer put out a Necromunda houserule set called Lost Zone that does a good job of capturing the older feel of scrappy gangs barely surviving in a deadly underworld. https://www.goonhammer.com/necromunday-lost-zone-index/
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Mar 20, 2023 14:16
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Improbable Lobster posted:Goonhammer put out a Necromunda houserule set called Lost Zone that does a good job of capturing the older feel of scrappy gangs barely surviving in a deadly underworld. Yeah, but at this point, I'd rather just play NM CE. I want to play a skirmish game, not an RPG that happens to use models. IMO the current designers want to make a PC skirmish/RPG but aren't quite cognizant of the fact that stuff like that is fun because the programming handles 90% of the heavy lifting. I don't begrudge anyone who enjoys it, but I just don't care for the current system (though the background is dope.) And to take the PC analogy one step further, I'm really annoyed with the DLC-style bullshit. In order to play my Escher in Ash Wastes, I have to get a hold of the Cinderak Burning sourcebook ($50) in order to get two pages I need for the Cutter and Crew. Again, I love NM, but how can you tell a new player that they have to buy a gang ($50) the core rulebook, ($60) a gang book that might be currently out of stock ($50) and what is essentially a GM's campaign book ($50) for a skirmish game? Add $100 if you want a box of vehicles ($50) and the Book of the Outlands rules to use them ($50.) It's just frustrating to see a game I enjoy being taken down this path.
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Mar 20, 2023 14:52
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You do the only logical thing and hook them up with pirated rules pdfs so they dont have to pay 200 dollars to play a skirmish game (that is already assuming somebody else has a board and terrain)
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Mar 20, 2023 15:39
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berzerkmonkey posted:Yeah, but at this point, I'd rather just play NM CE. I want to play a skirmish game, not an RPG that happens to use models. IMO the current designers want to make a PC skirmish/RPG but aren't quite cognizant of the fact that stuff like that is fun because the programming handles 90% of the heavy lifting. I don't begrudge anyone who enjoys it, but I just don't care for the current system (though the background is dope.) I totally agree with this, the sheer number of books needed to have access to stuff is just insane. Make the rules available free somewhere and I'll buy the models. The books should be a "I want the fluff and art for my favorite group" thing, not a mandatory purchase to keep up with the meta.
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Mar 20, 2023 15:39
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I'll never be able to verify it, but I feel like the outlandish amount of dead tree DLC was a compromise with the suits over the low model count.
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Mar 20, 2023 15:51
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While I definitely agree that book proliferation and the rules being scattered around is a problem, I love new model Necromunda. I really don't get the complaint that house gangs have too much stuff, are too well equipped etc. It's far better to house rule limits on that stuff, then it would be to not have it and need to make it all up from scratch. I have played in one very good old-rules Necromunda campaign, I am not an expert or as tied to it as some players here. But I think you all have rose tinted glasses. It didn't have alternating activations and the old style of Overwatch was a blight on the game. New Necromunda definitely has problems with balance in skills and stat upgrades. But it's better than the full randomness of the old rules. Gangs used different models but all of their stats down to the last detail were the same, a Goliath was exactly as strong as a Van Saar. Houses did get unique weapon lists in Necromunda 2nd edition but the overlap was very big, it was a generic equipment pool. I much prefer the flavour and multifarious options we have now. To each their own, I guess.
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Mar 20, 2023 15:58
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Genghis Cohen posted:I have played in one very good old-rules Necromunda campaign, I am not an expert or as tied to it as some players here. But I think you all have rose tinted glasses. It didn't have alternating activations and the old style of Overwatch was a blight on the game. New Necromunda definitely has problems with balance in skills and stat upgrades. But it's better than the full randomness of the old rules. Gangs used different models but all of their stats down to the last detail were the same, a Goliath was exactly as strong as a Van Saar. Houses did get unique weapon lists in Necromunda 2nd edition but the overlap was very big, it was a generic equipment pool. I much prefer the flavour and multifarious options we have now. Like I was saying, the differentiation is in the skill lists. Goliath will get Strength and Combat skills, Van Saar will get Shooting and Tech, etc. They all start similar but differentiate pretty quick. You get individual characters with fairly unique sets of skills because they're all rolled randomly. It's emergent. But they all develop from the same simple set of stats, choices and rules. I have the new Escher book, and there's so much stuff in there on crafting your own poisons and chems that anyone I play with that doesn't have the book will just have to take my word for it, because it doesn't exist anywhere else. Every group in the new Necromunda rules have similar 'just for them' rules that makes it difficult for anyone to understand what they're fighting against without a huge explanatory session beforehand. Since they won't have access to their rules because it's $50/book for each faction. Anyway, old overwatch isn't as terrible as people make it seem if you actually have the right amount of terrain on the board, and you remember the firing arcs. Overwatch basically shuts down an alley, forcing the other player to go around. It's neat.
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Mar 20, 2023 17:37
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Yeah, I love Necromunda as a concept but the bespoke rules for everyone, the insane complexity that non-house gangs add (I'm looking at you Helots) and the fact that after a few campaign weeks your rag-tag gang is better armed than most Kill-Teams and the flavor of the game changes because of that makes it a relationship that sours as the weeks roll on and the credits roll in. Going to give the One Page Rules "Gang Wars" a look. I know Goonhammer has their modified campaign, but you have to house rule so many things (with their campaign or not) it's tough to be an Arbiter. That or make my own game! (coming in fall of 2048)
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Mar 20, 2023 18:07
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Man I wish OPR would do gangs instead of whole "we have Warhammer at home" armies. E: how is their gang game though? moths fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Mar 20, 2023 |
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Mar 20, 2023 18:11
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Ravendas posted:Like I was saying, the differentiation is in the skill lists. Goliath will get Strength and Combat skills, Van Saar will get Shooting and Tech, etc. They all start similar but differentiate pretty quick. You get individual characters with fairly unique sets of skills because they're all rolled randomly. It's emergent. But they all develop from the same simple set of stats, choices and rules. I just don't get the complaint that there's too much stuff in the rules. I think it's great, you can spend ages poring over the rulebook and building a unique gang. I am aware of how that could be off-putting if you simply want to understand all the options at a glance, get playing, and have your opponents also understand all your options. I never found that final bit necessary to enjoy Necromunda, I don't play it competitively and am happy to take things happening in game as they come. Different strokes for different folks, as I said. I still maintain you'd be better off playing new-Necromunda with reduced credit income, maybe restricted House lists and a 'no special rules' for different gang types rule. So no Orlock legendary names, no Cawdor acts of faith etc. You'd surely want the prospect/special champion fighter types, the variety of lower-level weapons, the huge number of new scenarios, even the alternating activations, I can't imagine going back from those. Not trying to win an argument here, it's only my personal view on the game experience. I have usually been the arbitrator for my group and although we've never played a toned-down campaign in the style of Goonhammer's Lost Zone, I think it would be eminently doable and preserve a bit more modern flair than old-Necromunda.
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Mar 20, 2023 18:48
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Newcromunda also has the issue with them including models that are able to be outright OP right out the gate - Turn 1 of the campaign and I have a Delaque Nacht-Ghul Psyker with built-in stealth deployment, WS 2+, S4 and 2 attacks, and I can buy him Serpents Fangs for S6 and 4 attacks with rending? Plus the ability to have some weird psychic powers? Why thank you, I would love to be able to mow through any model that is within 12 inches of me. At least old necromunda had leaders and champions be stuck with mostly normal gear until you could roll the crazy stuff. Newcromunda thinks that gangers should mostly be ablative wounds to allow champions and leaders to rack up easy experience.
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Mar 20, 2023 19:33
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I think the sheer volume and consistency proves Necromunda is doing very well. I love the new game, and am thrilled it gets such constant support. People sad it isn't a 1:1 remake of the classic book seem insane to me. I would rather houserule things a given campaign is or isn't using than have nothing to choose from. The amount of books is a valid concern, but all you need is your house book and just don't sweat anything else! If another book has a cool campaign or scenario you can just play that if you want, but nobody says you have to. If the campaign organizer feels compelled to own everything for a delightfully maximalist vision of what he wants to run that is his choice.
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Mar 20, 2023 19:43
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I think the sheer volume and consistency proves Necromunda is doing very well. I love the new game, and am thrilled it gets such constant support. Yeah I would recommend picking rules that seem interesting and fun to have a good time with friends instead of trying to do absolutely everything for everyone
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Mar 20, 2023 19:48
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poo poo, i posted in the last thread that i didn't love that newcromunda is now a game where you can start with jetbikes with twin-linked plasma guns and people yelled at me, lolThirsty Dog posted:I think the Imperial fleet is the Space Marines of BFG. They look awesome and are ubiquitous in the fluff. The actual Space Marines don't have the same draw, which isn't a problem that needs solving. the problem is how bad every fleet after the initial two sucked. you could say it was a problem that started with armada but the rot was already setting in with orks, which were boring and one-dimensional, and eldar, who just weren't even playing the same game. space marines were boring box kites, necrons broke the game open, tyranids didn't even loving work. it was a mess of ugly models and bad rules, because there wasn't enough visual or game design space to go very far past dreadnaughts and pre-dreadnaughts in space. it's the flip side of boring human on human fights. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Mar 20, 2023 |
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Mar 20, 2023 21:06
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chin up everything sucks posted:Newcromunda also has the issue with them including models that are able to be outright OP right out the gate - Turn 1 of the campaign and I have a Delaque Nacht-Ghul Psyker with built-in stealth deployment, WS 2+, S4 and 2 attacks, and I can buy him Serpents Fangs for S6 and 4 attacks with rending? Plus the ability to have some weird psychic powers? Why thank you, I would love to be able to mow through any model that is within 12 inches of me. I would say that if you don't enjoy that experience with the Nacht-Ghul, it is the sort of thing that an active Arbitrator for a low-power campaign would identify for removal, or locking behind some further hoops for the late campaign. But also, in an alternating activations game, the ability to charge and delete one model (or two if you split your versatile attacks right and don't flub the rolls) isn't necessarily a game winner, if your Nacht Ghul gets taken out himself later that same round. Cease to Hope posted:poo poo, i posted in the last thread that i didn't love that newcromunda is now a game where you can start with jetbikes with twin-linked plasma guns and people yelled at me, lol Well I hope no one is going to yell at you, it's up to you what you prefer. But surely it's ok for the designers to write rules for jetbikes, and if you and your friends want to play games without them, you still can, but you have a robust framework for adding lower tech weapons, vehicles etc into your campaign. Improbable Lobster posted:Yeah I would recommend picking rules that seem interesting and fun to have a good time with friends instead of trying to do absolutely everything for everyone Exactly this. Groups don't have to use everything. It seems like a lot of people who don't enjoy the proliferation of special, powerful stuff in Necromunda would be willing to play without it themselves, but feel their opponents in campaigns will definitely use it, so they have it shoved in their faces. And the only solution to that is talk to your friends and figure out what most people like.
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Mar 20, 2023 21:40
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Cease to Hope posted:poo poo, i posted in the last thread that i didn't love that newcromunda is now a game where you can start with jetbikes with twin-linked plasma guns and people yelled at me, lol I hate that about Newcromunda too, I just found your framing of Mordheim as a human v human snoozefest to be kind of bizarre. But there is plenty to criticise Mordheim for even so, and you're absolutely right that a lot of the subsequent factions just threw balance out of the window. I still have an ambition to re-skin the Newcromunda rules with the Mordheim setting. For all that I have frustrations about Newcromunda, the core gameplay framework is good. I think it would suit Mordheim really well.
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Mar 20, 2023 21:40
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berzerkmonkey posted:Yeah, but at this point, I'd rather just play NM CE. I want to play a skirmish game, not an RPG that happens to use models. IMO the current designers want to make a PC skirmish/RPG but aren't quite cognizant of the fact that stuff like that is fun because the programming handles 90% of the heavy lifting. I don't begrudge anyone who enjoys it, but I just don't care for the current system (though the background is dope.) If you don't like the gameplay of newcromunda that's fine but the Lost Zone isn't intended to make it play like oldcromunda. It's supposed to make the higher quality equipment rarer and more valuable to like in oldcromunda. It sounds like you'd be better served by playing a different game system entirely so I don't know why you'd think that a modified campaign system would be for you.
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Mar 20, 2023 21:57
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Set up Man O War, I really need to tidy the attic so it can go up there. Had to temporarily blu-tac some of the masts on but looks like it's all there. I suspect this will be fun. At some point I may use the Mighty Empire forts for Man O War scenery. I'm never going to play Mighty Empires, but I am happy to own it finally.  
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Mar 20, 2023 23:52
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