|
Philippe posted:I see he's still weirdly obsessed with putting oblivion gates in his mods. Oblivion gates are now a toggle 
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 03:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 00:48 |
|
|
sebmojo posted:Oblivion gates are now a toggle If only Martin had known where the switch was.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 03:22
|
|
|
Uh...ok cool I guess?
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 05:03
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:This will absolutely be how it comes about. Least of all because porn has the most data to train off Or very, very angry.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 05:16
|
|
|
Is there still not an alternative to Open Cities? This kind of thing happened in Kerbal Space Program. Super popular mod. Author was an asshat. Someone came in, made their version of the guy's popular mod, and everyone pushed the shithead out of the community.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 05:49
|
|
|
The point is that this guy is trying to make an alternative to Open Cities, and that's what got Arthmoor to rethink his "no Nexus" policy, at least for the specific case of OC.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 05:57
|
|
|
Commander Keene posted:The point is that this guy is trying to make an alternative to Open Cities, and that's what got Arthmoor to rethink his "no Nexus" policy, at least for the specific case of OC. He already had mods other than the one he doesn't have full control over (The unofficial patch) on the Nexus. I don't know what his decision process was for those, but he also said he'd never update them on the Nexus. I guess he figured people would go to his site for the updates, so it was like advertising? Either way, Open Cities had no alternatives, so I guess he felt like it didn't need the "advertising" of being on the Nexus. The second that changed, up it went.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 06:33
|
|
|
It’s interesting that, to my knowledge anyway, this is the only other attempt at the same idea. Moving the doors and buildings between cells wouldn’t be that hard so I assume moving the NPCs and their full quest and script calls is a complete nightmare given how often Open Cities broke everything a decade ago. (Jesus Christ.)
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 06:48
|
|
|
back in the day some people uploaded their own takes on "open cities but without the stupid loving oblivion gate thing" he was somehow buddy-buddy enough with nexusmods to get them to take those mods down
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 07:44
|
|
|
That figures.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 07:58
|
|
|
RPATDO_LAMD posted:back in the day some people uploaded their own takes on "open cities but without the stupid loving oblivion gate thing" I think those were actually based on his own mod, so he had SOMETHING to stand on. This one is from scratch. Another problem is that... well, any mod compatibility is hosed. If any mod edits the inside of any city in any way, it is not compatible. The edit will be in the city cell, not the open city space. And goddamn but that affects a whole lot more mods than you might like. Avoiding city overhauls isn't remotely enough. It's just a tremendous pain in the rear end if you use any other mod at all.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 08:08
|
|
|
I think a new open cities mod is cool, just because it pisses off Arthmoor, and it's a technically impressive feat. But I never really understood the point of them, all the cities are still surrounded by walls so it's not like there's new ways to get into a city. It removes a loading screen I guess, if you don't mostly travel to cities via fast travel? Like, after the first time I visit a city 90% of the time I don't use the front gate to enter or leave it, so there's gonna a loading screen anyways.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 08:45
|
|
|
RPATDO_LAMD posted:back in the day some people uploaded their own takes on "open cities but without the stupid loving oblivion gate thing"
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 09:01
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:I think a new open cities mod is cool, just because it pisses off Arthmoor, and it's a technically impressive feat. But I never really understood the point of them, all the cities are still surrounded by walls so it's not like there's new ways to get into a city. It removes a loading screen I guess, if you don't mostly travel to cities via fast travel? Like, after the first time I visit a city 90% of the time I don't use the front gate to enter or leave it, so there's gonna a loading screen anyways. There are a number of knock-on effects. For example, Oblivion axed levitation & jump spells because cities are now a pocket dimension, so trying to fly in breaks the game. For that matter, it means cities have to be walled. It also means things like dragon attacks can never happen in major cities, and it makes combat weird, whether you're running from bandits hoping for help from guards or running away from guards. There are a million little gameplay systems like this that get affected by cities with load zones.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 09:38
|
|
|
aniviron posted:There are a number of knock-on effects. For example, Oblivion axed levitation & jump spells because cities are now a pocket dimension, so trying to fly in breaks the game. For that matter, it means cities have to be walled. It also means things like dragon attacks can never happen in major cities, and it makes combat weird, whether you're running from bandits hoping for help from guards or running away from guards. There are a million little gameplay systems like this that get affected by cities with load zones. Dragon attacks can happen in the walled in cities, they just happen while you're inside the city. It's rare, but I've had it happen to me and I googled it to make sure it happened to other people and wasn't just some mod I'd forgotten about.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 09:50
|
|
|
It wasn't just cities that killed levitation and mark, but also quests, dungeons, and basically anything and everything that required loading zones or sequences to function. I remember an interview with one of the devs who said that those spells made development a nightmare because every quest or problem had to be bracketed by "well, what if the player just flies/teleports away." Of course, then they put Fast Travel in, which... man, why not just make that diegetic the way Morrowind did?
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 09:53
|
|
|
Skippy McPants posted:It wasn't just cities that killed levitation and mark, but also quests, dungeons, and basically anything and everything that required loading zones or sequences to function. I remember an interview with one of the devs who said that those spells made development a nightmare because every quest or problem had to be bracketed by "well, what if the player just flies/teleports away." When was the first and last time you purposefully used one of the carts
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 09:56
|
|
|
Orv posted:When was the first and last time you purposefully used one of the carts I probably used them once or twice in a new game if I wanted to get to a city I hadn't visited yet, without walking there to unlock fast travel., but that's the only real reason to use them.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 10:41
|
|
|
Orv posted:When was the first and last time you purposefully used one of the carts That's not the cart's fault. The game lets you fast-travel to everywhere a cart can take you, so why ever use one? What made the "fast travel" in Morrowind good was that the Boats, Stilt Striders, Mage Guild Teleports, and Propylon Chambers all offered different ways to move about the world that didn't necessarily overlap. The fastest route from A to B often involved two or even three different kinds of traversal. It made moving about quickly a reward for learning and understanding the various systems, all of them dietetic. I appreciate something like that a lot more than clicking on the map to teleport wherever, whenever. The way Morrowind handles travel is one of the best things about the game, and it confounds me why more (any?) open-world games don't follow its example.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 11:19
|
|
|
Skippy McPants posted:That's not the cart's fault. The game lets you fast-travel to everywhere a cart can take you, so why ever use one? What made the "fast travel" in Morrowind good was that the Boats, Stilt Striders, Mage Guild Teleports, and Propylon Chambers all offered different ways to move about the world that didn't necessarily overlap. While I don’t disagree with you you also have to keep in mind that we (I’m assuming you too are a Morrowind sicko, apologies if not) know that poo poo like the back of our hand. I know where to go to Almsiivi halfway across the continent but as I recall, almost nothing in game actually points out or tutorializes the various fast travel systems in Morrowind, aside from “Hey I wonder what’s up with that hosed up bug.” I guarantee there are people who beat Morrowind who never knew they did anything, let’s not even get into the Propolyon Index. There’s a whole discussion there to be had about whether such things need tutorials but I tend to come down on the side of “There’s no reason not to (now) aside from obstinacy.” Rambling about Morrowind brain worms aside, I don’t think Skyrim was interesting enough and was too big for a fully diagetic travel system that meaningfully covered enough space. But that’s a whole ‘nother useless post about how Skyrim was actually terrible.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 12:17
|
|
|
Ra Ra Rasputin posted:Major advancements in AI generated art regarding human anatomy will be driven by porn. I would suggest also that major advancement in Types Of Horny will be driven by AI interpretations of human anatomy, the relationship is dialectical, not one way 
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 13:02
|
|
|
Orv posted:While I don’t disagree with you you also have to keep in mind that we (I’m assuming you too are a Morrowind sicko, apologies if not) know that poo poo like the back of our hand. I know where to go to Almsiivi halfway across the continent but as I recall, almost nothing in game actually points out or tutorializes the various fast travel systems in Morrowind, aside from “Hey I wonder what’s up with that hosed up bug.” I guarantee there are people who beat Morrowind who never knew they did anything, let’s not even get into the Propolyon Index. I'm fine with a tutorial. I'd see something like a small mission to help the player understand that boats are for coastal travel, Mage Guilds connect the major cities, Striders the native cities, and Pylons are the wild card. Modern gaming is so replete with systems-laden open-world games that I think players would catch on quickly. I actually like Skyrim more than Morrowind. My truncated assessment is that I think Morrowind has a better world, while Skyrim is a better game, fast travel quibbles notwithstanding.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 14:02
|
|
|
Skippy McPants posted:It wasn't just cities that killed levitation and mark, but also quests, dungeons, and basically anything and everything that required loading zones or sequences to function. I remember an interview with one of the devs who said that those spells made development a nightmare because every quest or problem had to be bracketed by "well, what if the player just flies/teleports away." It's not about immersion, it's about breaking script triggers. Skippy McPants posted:That's not the cart's fault. The game lets you fast-travel to everywhere a cart can take you, so why ever use one? What made the "fast travel" in Morrowind good was that the Boats, Stilt Striders, Mage Guild Teleports, and Propylon Chambers all offered different ways to move about the world that didn't necessarily overlap. Because it's annoying. Traversal in morrowind is not a smooth pleasurable experience you want to do for the enjoyment of it. And if you haven't learned all the travel points and routes it's even more annoying. And you couldn't ask for directions. And you're hosed if you wanna go to a point of interest that's far from travel hubs. And each travel step involves at least one load screen. Morrowind has a wonderful world, but as a game it kinda sucked. Kyte fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Mar 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 16:49
|
|
|
Kyte posted:Morrowind has a wonderful world, but as a game it kinda sucked. I agree with that, but I stand by its fast-travel systems. In a modern game, the friction could be reduced to be less annoying without losing what makes it good.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 16:54
|
|
|
I remember the Morrowind travel systems to be so loving annoying after 50 hours of play that I eventually abused the hell out of bugs, the alchemy system, the spell system, and the enchantment system to make it so I could pump my stats up thousands of points very briefly in order to leap halfway across the island from a running start and survive.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 17:06
|
|
|
I think everyone got to a point with that game where they were abusing the Fort: Speed, Jump, Feather combo to hop across the continent. The magic system in Morrowind was another one of the highlights. For all that it completely broke the game, it was fun to break.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 17:23
|
|
|
Zesty posted:Is there still not an alternative to Open Cities? The guy who released that open whiterun mod said he'll have the rest of the cities up in a few days. I guess he's just got a few loose ends to tie up with markarth before they're all ready.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 17:30
|
|
|
Open Cities is just nice to use, I've rarely had an issue with it breaking mods, but I don't use city overhauls. Part of the reason it's not a big deal is because, for all its faults, Skyrim is built to accommodate changes like this - the way it abstracts stuff under the hood makes it relatively simple compared to previous Bethesda games but makes it more complex to create new content.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 17:41
|
|
|
I'm not staunchly opposed to MW's travel system or anything, but I can't see the old standard of "it's really cool once you learn where everything is and how to navigate it" as anything but classic system mastery self-justification. I've never actually heard a clear reason why it's intrinsically better to have everything be 80% more obtuse and involve 5x as many load screens beyond vague mutterings about verisimilitude. And if that is the case, why do people glorify the travel system but still grouse about how impossible it is to navigate Vivec? Surely if you just commit Vivec's entire layout to memory it's a very rewarding experience being able to zip around knowing exactly where to go?
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 18:29
|
|
|
The fast travel debate is as old as fast travel, it's a single player game, the only thing making you use fast travel is the lack of willpower to not take the quick and easy method instead of walking/riding there the slow way like people say they want.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 18:38
|
|
|
The wild thing I learned in Morrowind after modding it to vastly increase the draw distance was that stuff was actually really close together, its just your character moves so drat slow.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 18:59
|
|
|
Morrowind doesn't have load times anymore, even on hdd everything loads instantly with modern tech
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 19:06
|
|
|
Skippy McPants posted:The magic system in Morrowind was another one of the highlights. For all that it completely broke the game, it was fun to break. Making a fireball spell that was basically a tactical nuke but cost a million MP to cast ruled.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 21:27
|
|
|
John Murdoch posted:I'm not staunchly opposed to MW's travel system or anything, but I can't see the old standard of "it's really cool once you learn where everything is and how to navigate it" as anything but classic system mastery self-justification. I've never actually heard a clear reason why it's intrinsically better to have everything be 80% more obtuse and involve 5x as many load screens beyond vague mutterings about verisimilitude. Personally, I think verisimilitude is enough justification, ESPECIALLY in a game that relies on its world and immersion in it as much as Morrowind does. People sure as hell aren't playing it for its riveting minute to minute gameplay.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 21:41
|
|
|
Leal posted:The wild thing I learned in Morrowind after modding it to vastly increase the draw distance was that stuff was actually really close together, its just your character moves so drat slow. I've tried Morrowind a couple of times and never got more than a few minutes out of the tutorial, entirely because of how unbearably slow the movement is.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 21:55
|
|
|
John Murdoch posted:I'm not staunchly opposed to MW's travel system or anything, but I can't see the old standard of "it's really cool once you learn where everything is and how to navigate it" as anything but classic system mastery self-justification. I've never actually heard a clear reason why it's intrinsically better to have everything be 80% more obtuse and involve 5x as many load screens beyond vague mutterings about verisimilitude. And if that is the case, why do people glorify the travel system but still grouse about how impossible it is to navigate Vivec? Surely if you just commit Vivec's entire layout to memory it's a very rewarding experience being able to zip around knowing exactly where to go? Isn't that a huge part of what games are, though? Combat isn't necessarily intrinsically fun in games, especially at low level when your character sucks. A huge part of what makes it fun is the fact that you're mastering the systems. Leveling up isn't fun, you're just clicking buttons on the UI. Why do people love RPG-style leveling systems? Because it gives you a feeling of mastery over the game, of being in control of your build, and knowing the game. For what it's worth, I don't think Morrowind's fast travel system is remotely perfect, but I do think one of the praiseworthy things about it is that it does feel very rewarding to learn, and this emerges very organically. You the player are in control of it and there are multiple ways to get around quickly - as you learn each, you can actually get places faster than in something like Oblivion/Skyrim's fast travel system, because you can leave from interiors, for example, or use your knowledge of the systems to get somewhere you haven't yet been but know is accessible. But I do agree that it's too obtuse, and doesn't feel frictionless the way that you'd expect out of a modern game. Also yeah navigating Vivec sucks. That's a separate but problem though - even when you know your way around, the symmetrical, featureless layout means that you are unable to orient. It's a level design thing, though, more than a game system issue.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 22:14
|
|
|
John Murdoch posted:I'm not staunchly opposed to MW's travel system or anything, but I can't see the old standard of "it's really cool once you learn where everything is and how to navigate it" as anything but classic system mastery self-justification. I've never actually heard a clear reason why it's intrinsically better to have everything be 80% more obtuse and involve 5x as many load screens beyond vague mutterings about verisimilitude. And if that is the case, why do people glorify the travel system but still grouse about how impossible it is to navigate Vivec? Surely if you just commit Vivec's entire layout to memory it's a very rewarding experience being able to zip around knowing exactly where to go? I mean it's not vague mutterings about verisimilitude - it's an RPG and feeling immersed is a reason why some people play them. Especially one like Morrowind. Things being difficult or inconvenient can a game its texture, and yeah the inconvenience of having to walk or take a silt strider gives the world a greater sense of realness than just being able to warp at will. Quick travel can reduce your open world to just a map, a menu where you click to instantly travel to somewhere that technically exists in relation to everything else but just feels like an isolated island floating on its own. And like, systems mastery is a perfectly fine thing for a game to emphasize. Solving puzzles feels good. I don't really think knowing where the bug bus takes you counts as systems mastery though, morrowind system mastery is poo poo like breaking the game's balance with alchemy and poo poo. TGLT fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Mar 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 23:06
|
|
|
aniviron posted:Isn't that a huge part of what games are, though? Combat isn't necessarily intrinsically fun in games, especially at low level when your character sucks. A huge part of what makes it fun is the fact that you're mastering the systems. Leveling up isn't fun, you're just clicking buttons on the UI. Why do people love RPG-style leveling systems? Because it gives you a feeling of mastery over the game, of being in control of your build, and knowing the game. This is assuming everyone is the kind of person that enjoys mastery. Morrowind and the like are RPGs, and there's plenty of people who play for the plot or the roleplay or even just for loving around killing everything that moves with a personal unoptimized gimmick, not for mastery of systems. Personally to me all that nonsense is nothing more than a hassle. I don't feel accomplished that I figured out how to optimize travel, I just feel annoyed I had to bother to do so. It's an obstacle in my way to do the things I want to do. More importantly, mastery of a system is always a secondary goal compared to the intuitiveness of the system. Take Spider-Man for example. It rewards mastery, but it starts by making travel feel good even as a newbie. Otherwise it's literally "no trust me it gets good 10 hours in" syndrome.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2023 23:39
|
|
|
Not every game is going to be for everyone, and Morrowind was absolutely made with CRPG grognards in mind first. They implemented a perfectly fine hit detection model and then added a to hit stat anyways because that's what those weirdo freaks crave.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2023 00:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 00:48 |
|
|
overly focus testing to cut any fluff or things that might be weird or slightly get in the way of the player is the reason why we have dozens of identical AAA open world games with arbitrary RPG elements, skill trees, and random loot that all have the exact same cookie cutter gameplay loop, UI, and menus
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2023 01:17
|
|
