[Mideast + Africa] Getting rid of Bongo- but at what Brice?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Mideast + Africa] Getting rid of Bongo- but at what Brice?

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

ModernMajorGeneral posted:

So you'll fund large infrastructure projects that employ Africans right?

... right?

quote:

I know you�re looking at, you know, billions of dollars that come from the Chinese government, or get � I�m just trying to get a sense for, like, what metrics you�re kind of looking at.

SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: [Senior administration official], do you want me to give a first crack at that?

SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Sure, go ahead.

SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: So I think, for us, we�re looking at a metric less about dollars and about investments that are quality, that benefit Africans, that don�t undercut their sovereignty, that respect environmental � environmental issues and labor practices. So it�s much more specific investment by investment and working with our African partners so that they are clear about what they want from investment, not just from the Chinese but from the United States and other partners.

Right now, there�s a clear demand for infrastructure investment. The continent has the lowest road and rail density in the world. So that�s part of our PGII program, is to see what we can be doing in infrastructure where we are not as present as the Chinese or other players, as well as looking at supply chains, critical minerals, and energy. So those are places that we are putting a greater emphasis on.

But I don�t think we have � we don�t have a metric that we judge against what China is doing. We look at projects individually to see what they mean and how they contribute to African prosperity and evaluate any of the risks they may pose to us or to our African partners.

i hope y'all like resource extraction

# ? Mar 27, 2023 05:28

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 06:41

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

ModernMajorGeneral posted:

quote:
�A lot of Africans have woken up to realize how often in these large construction projects, infrastructure � they don�t employ Africans. They even ship in their own labor oftentimes,� Pham said.

So you'll fund large infrastructure projects that employ Africans right?

... right?

lol it's not even true. basically, they ship in chinese labour when there's a time limit on a project (like a president who wants a big project finished before relection). i think the other case was extremely early on, when there was a trained labour pool to work from.

(timestamped)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5uzxV8ub9k&t=3278s

# ? Mar 27, 2023 05:53

Zodium: Jun 19, 2004

galagazombie posted:

Heard NPR on the radio today and some NatSec ghoul was practically weeping live on air about how it wasn�t fair that China gives African nations loans with fair terms and without insidious conditions demanding the handover of all natural resource rights, destruction of all local industry, permanent military bases, and total privatization. Just the sheer concept of it was inconceivable and offensive to him. And the host even tried to help him frame it as bad for Africans by asking �Yes but surely the American loans create freedom loving rich countries unlike the evil Chinese loans?� and he couldn�t even say yes.

lol

# ? Mar 27, 2023 10:54

Truga: May 4, 2014; Lipstick Apathy

mawarannahr posted:

Middle Eastern, Near Eastern (which might be the sane as Midfke Eastern according to some sources)

"near east" is just how we call middle east here in yurop because it's right loving there, op

# ? Mar 27, 2023 11:16

Comrade Koba: Jul 2, 2007

the adjacent orient

# ? Mar 27, 2023 12:26

Truga: May 4, 2014; Lipstick Apathy

it's funny how you can sometimes immediately spot an article that was just verbatim translated from anglo sources by some jackass because it says middle east despite that phrase literally not existing in my language

# ? Mar 27, 2023 12:55

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

the best turkey engineering school is called middle east technical university (odt�/metu)

# ? Mar 27, 2023 16:49

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

https://twitter.com/jdakwar/status/1640172689167114241?s=20

article on the protests from the Palestinian perspective

# ? Mar 27, 2023 18:29

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

https://mobile.twitter.com/sajid_nadeem78/status/1640312734284644353

# ? Mar 27, 2023 18:38

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://twitter.com/TheAfricaReport/status/1640401796693671936

# ? Mar 28, 2023 05:18

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

didn't read the article but obi did...okay, especially in the southeast and lagos. his message did not penetrade into more rural areas of the two main parties, especially the north, which is what i expected.

also his party got nearly shut out of representation in the assembly and senate. i'm going to align myself with betteridges law of headlines here

he also gutted the platform to bend labor to his will. depending on who specifically will be like their three representatives or w/e there will be no social-democratic or progressive policies at all

# ? Mar 28, 2023 05:24

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

quote:

the LP returned home from the National Assembly polls on 25 February 2023 with eight seats in the senate and 36 members in the House of Representatives, the third-largest haul after the ruling All Progressives Congress (APC) and the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP).

that's more than i expected and enough to build a foundation on tbh

however i'm almost certain the APC has outright majorities in both houses after the election

# ? Mar 28, 2023 05:27

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://twitter.com/AlanSipress/status/1640514404969005057

# ? Mar 28, 2023 06:48

Car Hater: May 7, 2007; wolf. bike.
Wolf. Bike.
Wolf! Bike!
WolfBike!
WolfBike!
ARROOOOOO!

In Côte D'Ivoire with my friend and his family and the Chinese infrastructure/labor thing is getting to be a big deal - there's this massive revitalization project slated for the main bay in Abidjan - Moroccan money, imported Chinese construction company and labor. The locals get the improvements and the subsequent extraction and little else, and they're not all that happy but the attitude is generally "what can we even do about it?"

# ? Mar 28, 2023 11:03

Truga: May 4, 2014; Lipstick Apathy

yeah, china wanted to fix our hosed up our railways about a decade ago because we have an important adriatic sea port that's served by a single lovely 60 year old track local people built by themselves in early yugoslavia times
and since the ruling class is dumb af they said no because that's a gigantic construction business ~~they can get embezzle money from~~ that'll provide many jobs
so now we have no railways and no temporary construction jobs instead of having railways and no temporary construction jobs
actually, the construction finally started in 2021, full 10 years after the chinese offer, but it's going at an absolute snail's pace despite starting so late and thus the port keeps losing all the big customers to neighboring ports and any jobs gained from construction are a pittance compared to the hosed up port situation lmfao

# ? Mar 28, 2023 11:25

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

Car Hater posted:

In C�te D'Ivoire with my friend and his family and the Chinese infrastructure/labor thing is getting to be a big deal - there's this massive revitalization project slated for the main bay in Abidjan - Moroccan money, imported Chinese construction company and labor. The locals get the improvements and the subsequent extraction and little else, and they're not all that happy but the attitude is generally "what can we even do about it?"

isn't that a local government issue? I read that Chinese construction projects only use Chinese labor when the government gives them a tight deadline and they can't afford to scout hire and train locally. not like I did a deep dive on the legitimacy of that article but I know China uses local workers frequently

# ? Mar 28, 2023 19:18

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

in countries that haven't had a railroad built since 1956 it's probably difficult to find an experienced engineering pool locally

# ? Mar 28, 2023 20:10

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

indigi posted:

isn't that a local government issue? I read that Chinese construction projects only use Chinese labor when the government gives them a tight deadline and they can't afford to scout hire and train locally. not like I did a deep dive on the legitimacy of that article but I know China uses local workers frequently

Sometimes also they have, as in Kenya, Chinese workers running trains until local staff are trained and then they switch over. So yeah, the Chinese do use workers from home but usually when there isn�t an alternative or the alternative isn�t simply not available at the moment. It doesn�t matter at all to the West.

# ? Mar 28, 2023 20:39

galagazombie: Oct 31, 2011; A silly little mouse!

I�m remembering all the history books I�ve read over the years and how almost every single nation that successfully industrialized after England (who being first obviously had no one to hire) just hired a bunch of foreigners to do all the work to get them off the ground. Then after WW2 that�s suddenly a bad thing and you�re supposed to do it yourself.

# ? Mar 28, 2023 20:39

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

galagazombie posted:

I�m remembering all the history books I�ve read over the years and how almost every single nation that successfully industrialized after England (who being first obviously had no one to hire) just hired a bunch of foreigners to do all the work to get them off the ground. Then after WW2 that�s suddenly a bad thing and you�re supposed to do it yourself.

well I think the people living there already with no access to the sudden influx of training and decent paying jobs have a legitimate gripe with that strategy. I get that a country may not have many experienced or relevant engineers, but that's a small proportion of the labor that goes into building and operating a railroad

# ? Mar 28, 2023 21:03

Car Hater: May 7, 2007; wolf. bike.
Wolf. Bike.
Wolf! Bike!
WolfBike!
WolfBike!
ARROOOOOO!

I think re: exploitation it's the Moroccan funding/French colonial history more than anything, the Chinese firm is just there to do a job. Yeah the engineering talent leaves a lot to be desired here but the apparent complaint is that they just don't hire anyone local at all for the construction phase, even the manual labor stuff, and that's been the predominant case for most recent investment

# ? Mar 28, 2023 21:07

Yadoppsi: May 10, 2009

indigi posted:

isn't that a local government issue? I read that Chinese construction projects only use Chinese labor when the government gives them a tight deadline and they can't afford to scout hire and train locally. not like I did a deep dive on the legitimacy of that article but I know China uses local workers frequently

In an interview the former Minister for Public Works in Liberia claimed 83% of labor on Chinese infra projects was local. The exceptions were like you said, when there is a tight deadline or it was more common a decade ago when there was less of a local talent pool.

# ? Mar 28, 2023 21:11

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

Car Hater posted:

I think re: exploitation it's the Moroccan funding/French colonial history more than anything, the Chinese firm is just there to do a job. Yeah the engineering talent leaves a lot to be desired here but the apparent complaint is that they just don't hire anyone local at all for the construction phase, even the manual labor stuff, and that's been the predominant case for most recent investment

well that stinks

# ? Mar 28, 2023 21:31

Fleetwood: Mar 26, 2010; biggest hochul head in china

this is from five years ago so a lot may have changed since then

The Specter of Global China, Ching Kwan Lee. 2017

# ? Mar 28, 2023 22:26

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

as chinese workers gain more economic power i'd assume it would be less of an issue over time

# ? Mar 28, 2023 22:31

bedpan: Apr 23, 2008

Fleetwood posted:

this is from five years ago so a lot may have changed since then

The Specter of Global China, Ching Kwan Lee. 2017

well she would say that

# ? Mar 28, 2023 23:04

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

Yadoppsi posted:

In an interview the former Minister for Public Works in Liberia claimed 83% of labor on Chinese infra projects was local. The exceptions were like you said, when there is a tight deadline or it was more common a decade ago when there was less of a local talent pool.

i posted it above. a good watch.

# ? Mar 29, 2023 04:04

guidoanselmi: Feb 6, 2008; I thought my ideas were so clear. I wanted to make an honest post. No lies whatsoever.

https://twitter.com/hxhassan/status/1640461486400106499

interesting, hosed up story about MBZ hiring an agency to connect the brotherhood to qatar to cut into their business and ends up smearing a commodities trader as collateral damage with press manipulation

guidoanselmi has issued a correction as of 04:18 on Mar 29, 2023

# ? Mar 29, 2023 04:06

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://twitter.com/criticalthreats/status/1641497760514883584

# ? Mar 30, 2023 22:53

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

https://mobile.twitter.com/lina_love_1/status/1640499850817990661

Another massacre in Ethiopia.

# ? Mar 31, 2023 03:37

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Shadow governor sounds like a dope rear end job

# ? Mar 31, 2023 04:15

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

Some Guy TT posted:

https://twitter.com/criticalthreats/status/1641497760514883584

one of the worst color schemes i've ever seen

# ? Mar 31, 2023 05:15

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

hey new Falz in the wake of the election, he got this out fast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM8ULpYAX8M

"yakubu" in the song is this guy, the head of the nigerian electoral commission that many people think pulled the election in favor of the APC. in this video the assaulted man is a metaphor

# ? Mar 31, 2023 05:31

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

https://twitter.com/sajid_nadeem78/status/1641779318010392581?cxt=HHwWisC9mevl4sgtAAAA

# ? Apr 1, 2023 09:45

sheltered: Apr 1, 2023; by vyelkin

quote:

Inside Saudi Arabia�s Global Push for Nuclear Power

For years, Saudi Arabia has pressed the United States to help it develop a nuclear energy program, as Saudi leaders look beyond oil to power their country.

But talks about a nuclear partnership have dragged on, largely because the Saudi government refuses to agree to conditions that are intended to prevent it from developing nuclear weapons or helping other nations do so, according to officials with knowledge of the discussions.

Frustrated Saudi officials are now exploring options to work with other countries, including China, Russia or a U.S. ally.

At the same time, they are renewing a push with the United States � their preferred partner � by offering to try to normalize relations with Israel in exchange for U.S. cooperation on building nuclear reactors and other guarantees.

New details of the Saudi efforts provide a window into the recent difficulties and distrust between Washington and Riyadh, and into the foreign policy that Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman is pursuing: greater independence from the United States as he expands partnerships with other world powers, including China.

Some analysts say that is part of a strategy to pressure Washington to work with the Saudi government on its own terms; others say the prince sees an emerging multipolar world in which the United States plays a less dominant role. Saudi Arabia also agreed in March to a diplomatic rapprochement with Iran after China acted as broker.

The Saudi nuclear efforts raise a specter of proliferation that makes some American officials nervous: Prince Mohammed, the kingdom�s de facto ruler, has said that Saudi Arabia will develop nuclear weapons if Iran does. Any civilian nuclear program has dual-use elements that could aid a country in producing weapons-grade material.

But Prince Mohammed also believes he has the right to exploit the kingdom�s potentially vast uranium deposits for both energy and export. That would create a new revenue source for the kingdom and could give Saudi Arabia greater geopolitical heft. China is already working with Saudi Arabia on uranium prospecting.

Speaking at a conference in Riyadh in January, Prince Abdulaziz bin Salman, the energy minister, said that plans to enrich uranium and produce nuclear fuel � including for export � were even �more important� than proposed reactors in Saudi Arabia. The energy ministry said in a statement that the bidding process for two reactors involves �several technology vendors� and that it expected to receive proposals soon.

The enrichment ambitions make some U.S. officials nervous, even if Saudi Arabia�s turn toward nuclear power would align with the Biden administration�s support of low-carbon energy.

�They have a legitimate case to make about the need to use their uranium to produce energy so that they can sell what�s left of their oil before that runs out or the market collapses or something else happens,� said Hussein Ibish, a scholar at the Arab Gulf States Institute in Washington.

The United States requires countries to meet high standards of nonproliferation before cooperating on a nuclear program, including in some cases banning uranium enrichment and fuel reprocessing in their territory. The details are enshrined in a 123 agreement, which the State Department negotiates with advice from the Energy Department. The pact must be reviewed by Congress, which can block it.

Saudi officials have refused to commit to the restrictions, which would undermine their goal of enriching and selling uranium.

Even if Saudi officials express willingness to sign a 123 agreement, any deal would face significant political obstacles in Washington. President Biden distrusts Prince Mohammed and denounced Saudi Arabia during a blowup over Riyadh�s oil policy in October. And many Democratic lawmakers and some Republican ones say Saudi Arabia has been a destabilizing force.

�Absolutely not,� Representative Ro Khanna, a California Democrat, said in an interview when asked whether he would support an agreement allowing Saudi Arabia to use U.S. nuclear technology. �It�s a nonstarter.�

The White House and State Department declined requests for official interviews, and the department would reply only to written questions. U.S. and Saudi officials who spoke did so on the condition of anonymity.

The State Department said the United States had been negotiating an agreement with Saudi Arabia since 2012 but declined to give details. Trump administration officials and advisers pushed the nuclear effort, often secretly � an initiative to which some senators objected, citing Saudi Arabia�s human rights record and the potential for development of nuclear arms.

The State Department said the Biden administration �is committed to supporting Saudi Arabia�s clean energy transition, including its efforts to develop a peaceful nuclear energy program.� The department added that the United States requires �the highest international standards� on �safety, nonproliferation, export controls and physical security.�

The Saudi energy ministry said the kingdom�s �peaceful nuclear power program� would be based on �transparency and international best practices,� and that it would work closely with the International Atomic Energy Agency and countries that have signed general agreements with the Saudis to help with nuclear energy. Those include China, Russia, South Korea and France.

Some Saudi officials believe the United States has been an unreliable partner that has swung wildly on policy and has been unable to deliver on security and economic cooperation.

A Blast of Diplomacy

American and Saudi champions of nuclear power in the kingdom saw an opening when President Donald J. Trump sought to build ties with Prince Mohammed.

The efforts on energy began early in the administration, as a consortium of American companies, including Westinghouse, expressed interest in Saudi Arabia�s proposed nuclear reactor project. Michael T. Flynn, Mr. Trump�s first national security adviser, and Thomas J. Barrack Jr., an investor who was the chairman of Mr. Trump�s inaugural committee, pushed for U.S. involvement.

Those initial efforts stalled after the two men became embroiled in separate legal issues over other dealings with foreign officials.

Democratic lawmakers opened an inquiry into the nuclear efforts and issued a report saying White House lawyers had questioned the legality and ethics of the proposed ventures. That did not deter the administration. Rick Perry, the energy secretary, took the lead.

Mr. Perry issued seven authorizations to American companies allowing them to transfer unclassified U.S. nuclear technology � but not physical equipment � to Saudi Arabia.

However, American officials said they failed to produce any 123 agreement that they thought would be approved by Congress.

In September 2020, Mr. Trump held a White House ceremony in which the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain agreed to normalize relations with Israel in a pact called the Abraham Accords. Saudi leaders told the White House that nuclear cooperation was a condition for their country joining, a former senior administration official said. But Mr. Trump left office before an agreement could be reached.

�Nuclear to me is where you want to be going,� Mr. Perry said in an interview at an investment conference in Riyadh. But in baseball terms, he said, talks under Mr. Trump only ever got to �the second� inning.

He paused, then added, �The top of the second.�

Flirting With China
As the Biden administration insists on certain safeguards, Saudi officials have continued looking at non-American companies.

An attractive one is the Korea Electric Power Corporation, or Kepco, based in South Korea. A company spokesperson said Kepco is talking to U.S. officials about the nuclear program and is interested in working with Saudi Arabia but declined to go into details, citing a confidentiality agreement with the Saudis.

But the South Korean government, a U.S. ally, would likely bar the company from the project if Saudi Arabia does not enter into a strict nonproliferation agreement with a government or the International Atomic Energy Agency. The company said it hoped �the conditions for participation in the project will be created.� And a complicating factor is a legal dispute between Kepco and Westinghouse over reactor designs.

French bidders would be in a similar situation. And working with Moscow would be unappealing for Riyadh because of American- and European-led sanctions imposed on Russia.

Although Saudi officials think of American nuclear technology as the best option, they are open to considering Chinese technology. Saudi Arabia and China have forged closer ties recently, including over oil and military cooperation..

China has built up Saudi Arabia�s ballistic missile arsenal over decades and sends military officers to work on the program, current and former U.S. officials said. And with Chinese technology, Saudi Arabia is now able to build its own missiles, they said. New satellite imagery showing bulldozer activity at previous missile sites indicates Saudi Arabia could be housing a new type of missile underground, said Jeffrey Lewis, a nuclear nonproliferation expert at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies.

The missile program is separate from any nuclear energy effort, but it shows how closely China works with Saudi Arabia on highly technical and sensitive projects.

China�s leader, Xi Jinping, visited Saudi Arabia in December after nearly three years of pandemic isolation. He and King Salman issued a statement in which they promised �to cooperate in the peaceful uses of nuclear energy.�

While visiting Saudi Arabia in 2016, Mr. Xi oversaw the signing of a memorandum of understanding to help build a reactor.

Chinese nuclear companies have also offered to help explore and develop the country�s uranium resources. In 2017, the China National Nuclear Corporation and the Saudi Geological Survey signed a memorandum of understanding on surveying uranium deposits. In 2021, the Saudi Geological Survey issued a �certificate of appreciation� to the Beijing Research Institute of Uranium Geology for help in exploring uranium and thorium resources.

In the past three or four years, China has helped Saudi Arabia develop six to eight uranium prospecting sites in the western half of the country, Mr. Lewis said. They have yet to build milling and processing plants, which are needed for uranium enrichment.

The post Inside Saudi Arabia�s Global Push for Nuclear Power appeared first on New York Times.
https://dnyuz.com/2023/04/01/inside-saudi-arabias-global-push-for-nuclear-power/

the ever-weakening united states continues to sow its demise through geriatricRage

# ? Apr 1, 2023 18:28

sheltered: Apr 1, 2023; by vyelkin

look @ how much friendlier the trump administration is towards saudi arabia

https://mobile.twitter.com/katekelly/status/1642186335380205573

# ? Apr 1, 2023 18:57

guidoanselmi: Feb 6, 2008; I thought my ideas were so clear. I wanted to make an honest post. No lies whatsoever.

sheltered posted:

look @ how much friendlier the trump administration is towards saudi arabia

https://mobile.twitter.com/katekelly/status/1642186335380205573

given

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRYEjfA8OEM

and Pompeo turning on Trump

and the recent iran-KSA reapproachment,

I wonder if a new Trump presidency might actually stumble its way into a more benign ME foreign policy

# ? Apr 1, 2023 22:54

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://twitter.com/errinhaines/status/1642210919911501825

# ? Apr 1, 2023 23:45

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

guidoanselmi posted:

given

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRYEjfA8OEM

and Pompeo turning on Trump

and the recent iran-KSA reapproachment,

I wonder if a new Trump presidency might actually stumble its way into a more benign ME foreign policy

I believed that was going to be the saving grace of the first one and then he just kept doing the same poo poo as Obama and assassinated Soleimani so

# ? Apr 1, 2023 23:47

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 06:41

guidoanselmi: Feb 6, 2008; I thought my ideas were so clear. I wanted to make an honest post. No lies whatsoever.

same and same. but as a wise man once said "fool me once, shame on � shame on you. Fool me � you can't get fooled again."

also was posted in another thread

https://twitter.com/POLITICOEurope/status/1641108614038319106

# ? Apr 1, 2023 23:49

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Mideast + Africa] Getting rid of Bongo- but at what Brice?

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