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Government Handjob posted:We'll be starting Abomination Vaults soon and I'm torn between playing a wit swashbuckler (goblin?) or an animal instinct barbarian (half orc?) focused on punching and grappling. I think the main problem is that neither of you is helping the other to really succeed in this scenario. The upside though is that investing in Athletics doesn't really prevent you from doing other things too, so it shouldn't really be a problem problem. As was already said, trip is often a superior Athletics action anyway, and doesn't really call for different skill and feat investments to be good at.
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Mar 30, 2023 17:21
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Jarvisi posted:I would say if you want to be a grappler fighter is probably the easiest way to grab someone because of combat grab. You can grab this with the wrestler archetype too, but fighter still gets a +2 bonus to hit The fighter advantage to hit in terms of combat grab is a little odd, just because the progression of skill vs. attack is not in synch; what ends up happpening is that the fighter using combat grab is 'ahead' for two levels at every increase (Expert combat grab at 1, both are expert athletics at 3. Master combat grab at 5, both are Master athletics at 7, the same for Legendary at 13/15). And starting at 8, it's the Barbarian that has +2 over the fighter at any point after the skill increase catches up, thanks to Furious Bully). The other catch with Combat Grab is that while the Fighter will sometimes more reliably succeed with it (and both the Fighter and a Barb w/ Wrestler archetype do some Strike damage along the way thanks to it), you give up the opportunity to critically succeed at the grapple to do so - and a crit grapple is really good. If Trip is better than Grapple on a regular success, a crit grapple is so much better than a crit trip. The target becomes literally incapable of attacking or casting spells except to attempt to escape.
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Mar 30, 2023 17:34
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Government Handjob posted:We'll be starting Abomination Vaults soon and I'm torn between playing a wit swashbuckler (goblin?) or an animal instinct barbarian (half orc?) focused on punching and grappling. The cover of the book has a ghost on it. I'd think twice before picking something reliant on precision damage (ghosts are immune), but you could maybe make it work. Rogues and investigators at least get extra skills.
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Mar 30, 2023 18:04
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KPC_Mammon posted:The cover of the book has a ghost on it. I'd think twice before picking something reliant on precision damage (ghosts are immune), but you could maybe make it work. On the other hand… https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3628
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Mar 30, 2023 18:16
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Some tough melee characters are very handy in abomination vaults, the corridors are cramped and the rooms are small. Too many melee can be an issue, make sure you have a few people with reach/ranged options. On Trips/Grapples. I just finished running Strength of Thousands and I watched every solo fight in the campaign owned comprehensively by a Swashbuckler tripping the bad guys and then when he stood up, he ate up to three Opportunity Attacks from the Swashbuckler, Summoner and Rogue. It was reliable and worked in all fights bar one.
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Mar 30, 2023 19:03
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Sad you can't mind weapon a firearm
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Mar 30, 2023 23:41
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Thanks for the input! I'm still getting used to the system and fiddling around with pathbuilder while we're playing through Troubles in Otari with pregens so I have some time to ponder before session 0 and character creation. Another thing I was wondering about is weapons with the versatile trait like bastard swords. If you have a free hand does it cost an action to adjust your grip for a two handed strike?
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Mar 31, 2023 00:39
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Government Handjob posted:Thanks for the input! I'm still getting used to the system and fiddling around with pathbuilder while we're playing through Troubles in Otari with pregens so I have some time to ponder before session 0 and character creation. Removing a hand is free, adding a hand is an action
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Mar 31, 2023 00:48
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Government Handjob posted:Thanks for the input! I'm still getting used to the system and fiddling around with pathbuilder while we're playing through Troubles in Otari with pregens so I have some time to ponder before session 0 and character creation. Note that two-handed, versatile, and modular are different. As noted, adding a hand for two-handed is an action, except if you're using something like Dual-Handed Assault. Switching between modular damage types is an action. Picking a damage type for versatile is not an action, and can be done every attack.
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Mar 31, 2023 07:34
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Yeah that's a few years of 5e interfering with my limited experience with PF, thanks for the correction and informative replies 
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Mar 31, 2023 07:54
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I'm playing with two variations on my flying blade/wit swashbuckler based on suggestions and I could use more help. He's locked into an early rogue archetype, he was a rogue when the APG came out so that's the RP deal. For that, I'm taking sneak attacker and strong arm. I'd like to add ranger for gravity weapon and more range. Either ranger or Acrobat dedication is my next free archetype. I'm looking at vexing tumble and bleeding finisher as likely class feats for 6 and 8. The big question is, do I go aerobatics mastery at 7 and Aeromancer at 9? Do I need Aerobatics mastery to be a good aeromancer flyer? I'm really liking the synergy of acrobat dedication, cat fall (from rogue dedication), and flight. Then doubling my range to 60 with ranger dedication will make him a monster of the skies. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Mar 31, 2023 |
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Mar 31, 2023 15:20
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Is there a rule written somewhere about whether normal arrows fired from a magical bow count as magical for resistances and stuff? I've been playing some one-shots with other newbies and people who have been away from the game for a while, and while fighting Shadows nobody could remember. The general lack of magic ammunition makes it seem like the bow is all you need, but we couldn't find that written down anywhere.
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Apr 1, 2023 08:35
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Facebook Aunt posted:Is there a rule written somewhere about whether normal arrows fired from a magical bow count as magical for resistances and stuff? In the D&D 5e Errata, this issue is addressed: Magic Weapons (p. 140). The section ends with a new paragraph: “If a magic weapon has the ammunition property, ammunition fired from it is considered magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.”
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Apr 1, 2023 09:45
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Not sure how that helps with PF2e though?
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Apr 1, 2023 10:05
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I cannot imagine it wouldn't be considered magical. It's an attack from a magic bow.
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Apr 1, 2023 10:18
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The bow is the weapon, not the arrow. A good that deals extra damage must impart its magic on the arrow, otherwise it wouldn't work except by bashing enemies with it. E.g., a bow that does an additional 1d6 fire damage is imparting that fire magic to the arrow.
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Apr 1, 2023 12:53
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I feel like you've found a case in the rules where it's fairly intuitive but at the same time, there are gaps in the rules big enough to drive a truck through. For example, I can't actually find where it says the item gains the traits of the rune upon etching, which is kind of funny. I think it's possible RAW that weapon potency runes do not actually add the magical trait to items they're etched upon, but they do explicitly apply the item bonus. Resistances say they can specify combinations of damage types or traits. But the text in the bestiaries just say 'non-magical' which is never defined anywhere. Also the Resistances section doesn't use the word "Attack" or "Strike" anywhere, it just refers to damage. And as far as I can see, damages can be typed but don't carry traits. And nothing about resistances says to factor in the traits of the weapon used to make the attack. There's also a difference between the weapon and the attack (since some attacks don't use a weapon). If damage even can carry a trait, Does the damage of an attack gain all the traits of the weapon that made the strike? Again, doesn't say that anywhere I can find. It would imply damage carries every type a weapon can have which is super weird. 'Reach' damage? 'Goblin' damage? 'Disarm' damage? To summarize: 1) It's not clear weapons etched with a weapon potency rune technically have the "magical" trait. 2) It's not technically clear that attacks with a weapon cause the attack to gain the traits of the weapon. 3) It's not clear that attacks with "magical" trait automatically override "non-magical" resistance because resistance does not mention the traits of the attack. 4) It's not clear that damage can carry a trait like "magical". 5) Even if it could, it's not clear that attacks with weapons automatically apply all their traits to the damage, similar to #2 above with the attack. So in short, yes you should just do what makes sense, since there's no magical ammunition you can safely assume they intended for arrows to carry the rune traits applied to the weapon. bonus: Weaknesses have different language than Resistances, they refer to a 'source' of damage, but nothing about the traits of the source. For example, how can something be weak to silver weapons? Weapons made of silver don't actually have any traits other than "precious", and it does not affect the damage type. Also, all the same vague poo poo applies about what is the 'source' of the damage, is it the attacker, the attack, the weapon, etc...
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Apr 1, 2023 14:42
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:Not sure how that helps with PF2e though? Sometimes at 4sm you just forget which thr3ad you are in.
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Apr 1, 2023 15:03
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Rescue Toaster posted:bonus: Weaknesses have different language than Resistances, they refer to a 'source' of damage, but nothing about the traits of the source. For example, how can something be weak to silver weapons? Weapons made of silver don't actually have any traits other than "precious", and it does not affect the damage type. Also, all the same vague poo poo applies about what is the 'source' of the damage, is it the attacker, the attack, the weapon, etc... " If you have a weakness to something that doesn't normally deal damage, such as ETA: When are you "touched" by a silver sword? Obviously when actually hit. If I were gming a fight against a werewolf I'd probably give any miss within 3 of its AC a 50/50 chance at otherwise non-damaging contact. Silver powder in the face would be way more effective though. Rescue Toaster posted:I feel like you've found a case in the rules where it's fairly intuitive but at the same time, there are gaps in the rules big enough to drive a truck through. I think the rest of this is also in the rules but it might take a bit to tease out. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Apr 1, 2023 |
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Apr 1, 2023 15:21
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Adding a fundamental rune makes it a Magic Weapon, which has the magical trait. According to the Damage Rules we see that a magical weapon (like a +1 mace, ie a Magic Weapon) deals magical damage of its type quote:If you have resistance to a type of damage, each time you take that type of damage, you reduce the amount of damage you take by the listed amount (to a minimum of 0 damage). Resistance can specify combinations of damage types or other traits. For instance, you might encounter a monster that’s resistant to non-magical bludgeoning damage, meaning it would take less damage from bludgeoning attacks that weren’t magical, but would take normal damage from your +1 mace (since it’s magical) or a non-magical spear (since it deals piercing damage). A resistance also might have an exception. For example, resistance 10 to physical damage (except silver) would reduce any physical damage by 10 unless that damage was dealt by a silver weapon. Arrows are listed as ammunition, not weapons, and aren't what is technically doing the damage (they don't have a listed damage amount). The Shortbow (or whatever) is what is doing the damage, and if it is a magical weapon it is doing magical damage.
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Apr 1, 2023 15:42
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https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=733 "Rune-etched armor and weapons have the same Bulk and general characteristics as the non-magical version unless noted otherwise." That means yes, the runes make the weapon magical. E: The answer above is better
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Apr 1, 2023 15:42
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Piell posted:Adding a fundamental rune makes it a Magic Weapon, which has the magical trait. I mean I don't think you're wrong. As I'm learning the pf2e rules I'm getting annoyed by the things that are referenced in only one direction, if you will. I can't find anything about the potency rune or etching process says it becomes a "Magical Weapon". Clearly based on this it does, assuming you know specifically to search for Magical Weapon instead of looking anywhere in the runes or crafting. Just annoying to me. I still think it's vague about weapons and attacks and damage and what is actually carrying the trait that affects the resistance/weakness. You yourself say 'if it is a magical weapon it is doing magical damage.' Please define 'magical damage'. Are you implying that magic damage is a type? Or are you implying that damage can carry a literal trait? Or is it that the attack that carries the trait? Do weapons always imbue all their traits to the attack, and the attack always imbues all its traits to the damage? Where does it say this?
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Apr 1, 2023 16:43
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Rescue Toaster posted:I mean I don't think you're wrong. As I'm learning the pf2e rules I'm getting annoyed by the things that are referenced in only one direction, if you will. This is basically the entire design philosophy, sorry!
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Apr 1, 2023 17:12
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Facebook Aunt posted:Is there a rule written somewhere about whether normal arrows fired from a magical bow count as magical for resistances and stuff? The 1e rules are explicit on it, at least. "Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies. Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon."
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Apr 1, 2023 17:46
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Rescue Toaster posted:I mean I don't think you're wrong. As I'm learning the pf2e rules I'm getting annoyed by the things that are referenced in only one direction, if you will. I can't find anything about the potency rune or etching process says it becomes a "Magical Weapon". Clearly based on this it does, assuming you know specifically to search for Magical Weapon instead of looking anywhere in the runes or crafting. Just annoying to me. quote:Four fundamental runes produce the most essential magic quote:I still think it's vague about weapons and attacks and damage and what is actually carrying the trait that affects the resistance/weakness. You yourself say 'if it is a magical weapon it is doing magical damage.' Please define 'magical damage'. quote:Ghosts and other incorporeal creatures have a high quote:Are you implying that magic damage is a type? quote:Or are you implying that damage can carry a literal trait? quote:Or is it that the attack that carries the trait? quote:Do weapons always imbue all their traits to the attack, and the attack always imbues all its traits to the damage? quote:Where does it say this? This is derived from the understanding of one of the common, intended paths for resolution of conflict (e.g: combat) and a transitive extrapolation of how damage works from weaponry we have real world reference for (see: the hammer swing in the paragraphs above), with clear exceptions delineated where relevant. For the case of Magical Ammunition-- between the way ammunition is described to have unique magical properties decoupled from its source of emanation-- p. 80-83 of the 2nd Edition Treasure Vault or p. 168-171 in 2nd Guns & Gears with the Magical Trait; the way Spellshot, Beast Gunner, and Eldritch Archer are Archetypes described to have unique effects on ammunition with abilities that have the Magical Trait on p. 140-141 and p. 130-131 of Guns & Gears and p. 172-173 of the Advanced Player's Guide; descriptions of Runes imbuing Weapons with the Magical Trait (p. 580-581, Core Rulebook) and the way that ranged weapons across all sources lack the Magical Trait, we can infer that the intended ruleset is to treat regular ammunition gains the Magical Trait when used via a source that possesses the Magical Trait, but does not otherwise. Now I could just be really off-base on all of this as I'm pretty new to PF2e specifically, but based on my understanding TTRPGs and referencing these sources, this seems to be the designed intent. Of course it could always be ruled elsewise, as is the prerogative of any GM for any reason.
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Apr 1, 2023 20:56
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I have nothing to add to the current discussion I just think it's really funny this thread became roughly 300% more active after the OGL debacle
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Apr 1, 2023 20:59
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A classic WotC own goal.
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Apr 1, 2023 21:00
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Brand entropy only gets so far and in the real world the Red Ampersand isn't cool, it's just stylish
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Apr 1, 2023 21:07
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Magical attacks are very funny with golems
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Apr 1, 2023 21:16
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Golems and Attack Spells are a really interesting wording case. Their weakness triggers when targeted with the spell, not when they are hit by the spell. I’ve never seen a clarification about this so if you have the right cantrip, you can consistently burn a Golem down even if you are missing all the time.
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Apr 1, 2023 22:54
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HidaO-Win posted:Golems and Attack Spells are a really interesting wording case. Their weakness triggers when targeted with the spell, not when they are hit by the spell. I’ve never seen a clarification about this so if you have the right cantrip, you can consistently burn a Golem down even if you are missing all the time. But looking through them, the spells they are vulnerable to aren't cantrips? vvvv: I see, the golem antimagic. Really weird that effect doesn't have a basic save or require a spell attack to hit. Rescue Toaster fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Apr 2, 2023 |
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Apr 1, 2023 23:12
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Rescue Toaster posted:But looking through them, the spells they are vulnerable to aren't cantrips? they are vulnerable to magical damage types. if you target a clay golem with a ray of frost you deal 5d10 damage.
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Apr 1, 2023 23:16
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Blockhouse posted:I have nothing to add to the current discussion I just think it's really funny this thread became roughly 300% more active after the OGL debacle The mix of the drama plus all the sales made it a great time to dive into it. I don't know if I'd have finally made the leap without the sales. Thankfully we did and everyone seems to be enjoying it. The Beginner Box and Abomination Vaults also let me finally dip into foundry and get my group to try it out.
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Apr 2, 2023 00:22
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second tpk in the beginner box, same group they lined themselves up in such a way that the dragon doing the most baldfaced obvious move of breathing on the fighter in its face got three out of four of them. (i wasn't even trying, i just put the template up and when it was straight on it seriously just got them all) i'd just emphasized hero points, so the fighter used one when he rolled a crit fail on his reflex save. the reroll was ALSO a crit fail. honestly everyone seemed to be having a good time and two people ran away and it was just kind of collectively "okay alchemist is REALLY fiddly" and "mastermind rogue does not work the way I want it to" so everyone's rerolling and we're just going to abomination vaults with level 2 characters lol
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Apr 2, 2023 01:09
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Doesn't the beginner box say to use it explicitly badly though?
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Apr 2, 2023 01:41
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Cyouni posted:Doesn't the beginner box say to use it explicitly badly though? That's what I mean, I did what it said to do and still hit 3 people.
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Apr 2, 2023 01:48
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Been there. No matter how obvious it is that something will use a breath weapon in a cone, no matter how experienced the players are, they'll still panic and line up like ducks because "I'm thinking about how being here will make the next round better."
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Apr 2, 2023 03:05
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Are Recall Knowledge checks supposed to be secret? I was reading various posts about RK in general, and a lot of them say it's supposed to be, but even the ones that apparently quote the rules didn't match what's in my particular rulebook (or AoN). Did they update the rules at some point, or am I missing something?
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Apr 3, 2023 11:07
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3 Action Economist posted:Are Recall Knowledge checks supposed to be secret?
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Apr 3, 2023 11:13
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Oh right, tags. I always forget about tags. The wording "you attempt a skill check" implies the player rolling, which is what confused me.
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Apr 3, 2023 11:29
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