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The law was pretty transparently designed so that sheriffs (i.e. elected far right Republican officials) and their deputies could arrest pretty much any manner of gender non-conformist they wanted to. I mean, consider that the prototypical bogeyman here is "Drag Queen Story Hour." If reading a children's book, to children, while wearing a dress falls under the banner of "appealing to a prurient interest" then what the hell doesn't?
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Apr 2, 2023 06:49
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It's so incredibly hosed up because the point of things like DQSH isn’t about gender at all, really, it’s just to give kids the message that, you know, people like to express themselves in different ways, and however you want to express yourself is okay, even if it seems weird to other people, and you should respect how other people express themselves as well. The problem is that conservatives don’t want their kids - or, for that matter, anybody’s kids - getting that message. And because the motivation of just “making people be nicer to other people despite their differences” is so alien and even frightening to them, they come up with this entire alternate reality where it’s all about trying to molest kids - while, in the real world, children continue to get molested by their relatives and authority figures. Just so many layers of hosed.
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Apr 2, 2023 06:58
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Mellow Seas posted:Nobody gave a poo poo about drag for yeeeaaaaaars, up until extremely recently. RuPaul was super famous in the '90s and his show has been on since 2009. It's 100% an outgrowth of trans panic. Men dressing as women is just a good harmless fun time, but people with penises being women, well, that won't do at all. Drag is just kind of getting caught in the net. I forget the exact number but around 32 states with gop control at the legislature introduced various anti trans bills the day after Biden’s inauguration. It was organized, premeditated, and the forces that be likely practiced it in Britain before trying to implement it here. This obviously coordinated event got drowned out by the noise of the outgoing president fomenting a coup attempt.
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Apr 2, 2023 15:49
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Timeless Appeal posted:Drag bans are pretty obviously unconstitutional, and I can't even imagine them surviving the current worst Supreme Court. It has nothing to do with gender identity or accepting trans people. Drag bans just clearly violate the 1st Amendment and 14th Amendment because they're just bans on a guy wearing a dress*. They were in effect for most of the 20th century, so maybe it's not that obvious. One should not underestimate SCOTUS.
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Apr 2, 2023 16:19
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:They were in effect for most of the 20th century, so maybe it's not that obvious. One should not underestimate SCOTUS. 1) No, they ARE OBVIOUSLY unconstitutional regardless of the what the Supreme Court says. Regardless of what the court says, it is obviously a violation of the 1st Amendment and 14th Ammendment to say a man cannot wear a dress. There is no good faith argument on the other side. 2) I just posted the history of people being harassed in the the 21st century in what is supposed to be a bastion of Liberalism 3) I cited a really recent Supreme Court case made by what is essentially the same exact court we have now Like yeah man, the court is bad, so who knows.
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Apr 2, 2023 17:08
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Post-indictment poll: Trump surges to largest-ever lead over DeSantis https://news.yahoo.com/trump-indictment-poll-surges-lead-desantis-151150006.html Good to know that being impeached 2x and being the first president in history to be indicted is one for the plus column. I guess one could argue that it's similar to Clinton's approval bounce after he was impeached but I think it's more along the lines that him Trump being charged is proof and validation of the deep state and all that poo poo. WHy are they so loyal and why do they love this person so much? A person who is incapable of love or loyalty and who throws under the bus then shits on everyone and anyone he's ever worked with the second they're no longer useful? Prior to that they were "brilliant" and just "the best people". But it's never Trump's judgement that's at fault. It's their character. I think the slavish devotion from the Christian right is the one that gets me the most. THe thrice divorced adulterer who bangs porn stars is god's chosen hero for america.
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Apr 2, 2023 17:18
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"Regardless of what the supreme Court says" is meaningless until someone is willing to take political action in that context. Hope they do the right thing but sooner or later they might decide to go Scalia Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Apr 2, 2023 |
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Apr 2, 2023 17:21
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Harold Fjord posted:"Regardless of what the supreme Court says" is meaningless until someone is willing to take political action in that context. Also, things can still be true even if the Supreme Court disagrees, and it's frankly absurd to claim otherwise. The Supreme Court are a single branch of government who obviously wield extraordinary power, but they're not law wizards. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Apr 2, 2023 |
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Apr 2, 2023 17:35
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Timeless Appeal posted:Okay honey... "Okay honey..." is extremely condescending. The court gets to decide what is and is not unconstitutional, ultimately, even if you and I think they're full of poo poo. It's "obviously unconstitutional" under modern conceptions that are being rapidly rolled back and was very clearly not, in practice, unconstitutional, for well over 100 years after the ratification of the 14th. The court rules and overrules and can as easily go backwards as forwards and one should not have expectations of the civil rights decisions of a court that overturned Roe. I support cautious optimism but "lol this is so unconstitutional" with respect to civil rights was questionable post-VRA decision and even more so now. Bostock is indeed relevant because it helps map Gorsuch's positions, but because he likes textualism and is not just firing on blind ideology, that is not 100% predictive.
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Apr 2, 2023 17:38
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BiggerBoat posted:I think the slavish devotion from the Christian right is the one that gets me the most. THe thrice divorced adulterer who bangs porn stars is god's chosen hero for america. It can't be overstated enough how much that you even think they genuinely care about those things is nothing more than the results of a successful smokescreen. He's a straight white rich man doing what is his privilege to do.
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Apr 2, 2023 17:41
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BiggerBoat posted:Post-indictment poll: Trump surges to largest-ever lead over DeSantis Because they are terrible people with or without Trump. They aren't loyal to him, if tomorrow he admitted his wrongdoing, championed gay and trans rights and endorsed a national curriculum that taught American history accurately, they would drop him in a split second. They are loyal to the hatred he spews out, and they would switch to a more better source of it if one should appear. The problem is not Trump, the problem is not the Republican politicians, the problem is the everyday Republican living right next to you.
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Apr 2, 2023 17:41
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BiggerBoat posted:Post-indictment poll: Trump surges to largest-ever lead over DeSantis Trump's #1 message has always been "I am being treated very unfairly, more unfairly than anyone in history, just like you". Which didn't really ring true during these past few years when people mostly ignored him. Now that actual bad stuff might be happening to him, boomers are ready to start projecting their feelings of inadequacy on him again.
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Apr 2, 2023 17:41
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:"Okay honey..." is extremely condescending. But it seems we agree that the bans are unconstitutional in theory, the current court sucks, but there is precedent to be cautiously optimistic which I feel like expressing we have a good chance of a 5-4 decision speaks to. So, we can move on. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Apr 2, 2023 |
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Apr 2, 2023 17:52
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"The law is unconstitutional on its face" is a lot like "He had the right of way" in that it's a nice affirmation, but it doesn't actually mean anything because the harm still occurred. The person still gets arrested/thrown in jail, the right of way guy is still dead on the pavement.BiggerBoat posted:Post-indictment poll: Trump surges to largest-ever lead over DeSantis My take on it is just that the worst people see Trump as enabling the best (worst) parts of themselves. He says the quiet parts out loud, he very visibly shits on minorities and anyone else he doesn't like, he is the person that could stand up, poo poo his pants, and everyone would clap at how big and strong his dump is. These aren't inherent to Trump. He's just the loudest, biggest person.
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Apr 2, 2023 18:03
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BiggerBoat posted:Post-indictment poll: Trump surges to largest-ever lead over DeSantis A lot of the people that support Trump seem have a Victim/Persecution complex, and in Trump they have an avatar. A whiny, self-obsessed wannabe dictator that is never at fault for anything, all of the problems are because of "them". Whether "them" is defined (FBI/Deep State/Minorities/LGBTQ+) or just left nebulous because they somehow know they can't just out and out say it (i.e. using "globalists" to represent the old "jews control everything" conspiracy). And of course they, like Trump, are under constant attack. Having to deal with such horrible things like acknowledging people might have different ideas and feelings of gender identity or that our own understanding of gender identity is changing. I keep hoping this angry thrashing is the final death throes of a dead ideology but unfortunately that is not the case. Not yet anyway.
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Apr 2, 2023 18:05
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Timeless Appeal posted:Also, things can still be true even if the Supreme Court disagrees, and it's frankly absurd to claim otherwise. The Supreme Court are a single branch of government who obviously wield extraordinary power, but they're not law wizards. Obviously not yet Citizens United is still around. I'll believe any of the other branches are interested in correcting SCOTUS when I see it
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Apr 2, 2023 18:13
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^ Nobody is arguing that the court doesn't make bad choices and it's not possible that they won't in this case. I really just don't understand the point here. ^Zamujasa posted:"The law is unconstitutional on its face" is a lot like "He had the right of way" in that it's a nice affirmation, but it doesn't actually mean anything because the harm still occurred. The person still gets arrested/thrown in jail, the right of way guy is still dead on the pavement. But we have to remember our conception of the Constitution isn't just up to the courts. The courts are impacted by public opinion and sentiment to some degree, and law from federal to local levels are shaped by conceptions of what is Constitutional. Saying that the opinion of if something is or is not unconstitutional is irrelevant until some hypothetical supreme court case doesn't feel true to me. I just have no idea what people are arguing outside of judicial review exists which, yes it does. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Apr 2, 2023 |
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Apr 2, 2023 18:13
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Timeless Appeal posted:I don't know how personally this impacts you,, and I'm truly sorry if that answer is "A lot." But I've been in non-stop worry mode about ALL OF THIS and your original post rubbed me the wrong way as did your response that summarized my original point as "lol this is so unconstitutional." Yeah, I'm sorry, I get it, and I probably misread where you were coming from. It does affect me but less directly than many others since I'm in a safer state and a more acceptable kind of queer. I deal with it through dark cynicism and my experiences have taught me to have very little trust for institutions doing the right thing and a lot of trust in building your own protection through community -- I have another conversation going in a Discord where I'm arguing with people for being too assimilationist because I think it's going to come back to bite them. My detachment isn't because I don't care, but the opposite... it's hard having these discussions devoid of personal context.
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Apr 2, 2023 18:16
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Yeah, I'm sorry, I get it, and I probably misread where you were coming from. It does affect me but less directly than many others since I'm in a safer state and a more acceptable kind of queer. I deal with it through dark cynicism and my experiences have taught me to have very little trust for institutions doing the right thing and a lot of trust in building your own protection through community -- I have another conversation going in a Discord where I'm arguing with people for being too assimilationist because I think it's going to come back to bite them. My detachment isn't because I don't care, but the opposite... it's hard having these discussions devoid of personal context.
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Apr 2, 2023 18:18
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DarkCrawler posted:Because they are terrible people with or without Trump. They aren't loyal to him, if tomorrow he admitted his wrongdoing, championed gay and trans rights and endorsed a national curriculum that taught American history accurately, they would drop him in a split second. They are loyal to the hatred he spews out, and they would switch to a more better source of it if one should appear. It's this. Right wing voters are some of the dumbest, most hate-filled, bigoted, poo poo stains this country has to offer. I travel through MTG's district for work a LOT and it's no surprise she got elected from these dipshits.
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Apr 2, 2023 18:31
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Angry_Ed posted:A lot of the people that support Trump seem have a Victim/Persecution complex, and in Trump they have an avatar. Do you guys think it’s possible that poor white people in flyover, industrial burnout areas have legitimately been victimized in the last 50 years?
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Apr 2, 2023 18:34
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BiggerBoat posted:I think the slavish devotion from the Christian right is the one that gets me the most. THe thrice divorced adulterer who bangs porn stars is god's chosen hero for america.
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Apr 2, 2023 18:42
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Do you guys think it’s possible that poor white people in flyover, industrial burnout areas have legitimately been victimized in the last 50 years? Sure. More than everyone else? gently caress no, that's just a perceived decrease of the still extant privilege being read as persecution.
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Apr 2, 2023 18:42
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Do you guys think it’s possible that poor white people in flyover, industrial burnout areas have legitimately been victimized in the last 50 years? I'd say that most of that is self inflicted to be honest.
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Apr 2, 2023 18:43
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Do you guys think it’s possible that poor white people in flyover, industrial burnout areas have legitimately been victimized in the last 50 years? NAFTA is 29 years old and the Great Recession was 15 years ago, but I'm not seeing anything that strikes those white people in any particular way. 50 years to now- 1973- the only noteworthy thing to argue is that seeing a Black guy hold a lightsaber in Star Wars and other cultural norms of white suprmemacy dying is a particular injury.
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Apr 2, 2023 18:46
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BiggerBoat posted:Post-indictment poll: Trump surges to largest-ever lead over DeSantis They're loyal to him because he doesn't give a poo poo about any rules or traditions or policies that get in the way of doing what they want, something people of basically any political stripe can relate to. He's willing to openly blast the courts if they make rulings that get in the way of his policies, and he's willing to loudly pretend that he'd defy the courts (though in practice, he has little choice but to obey). The far right aren't the only people who'd get hype for a politician who does that sort of stuff. On top of that, even his opponents don't have the guts to go against him at times like this. Remember DeSantis declaring that he'd order Florida officials to refuse to cooperate with the indictment? Of course he'd lose ground to Trump. If his campaign tactic is to fully buy into Trump's rhetoric and position himself as a wholehearted supporter of Trump, he isn't doing a very good job of explaining why anyone should vote for him over Trump.
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Apr 2, 2023 18:56
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Gerund posted:NAFTA is 29 years old and the Great Recession was 15 years ago, but I'm not seeing anything that strikes those white people in any particular way. 50 years to now- 1973- the only noteworthy thing to argue is that seeing a Black guy hold a lightsaber in Star Wars and other cultural norms of white suprmemacy dying is a particular injury. That's a fun wrinkle to it too. Good paying industrial jobs moved to southern states with weak labor laws or were eliminated by automation, but then you could tell rust belters NAFTA did it and they hate Clinton forever.
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Apr 2, 2023 18:58
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I’ll be proudly voting for Trump next year. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 2, 2023 19:01
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BiggerBoat posted:I think the slavish devotion from the Christian right is the one that gets me the most. THe thrice divorced adulterer who bangs porn stars is god's chosen hero for america. I mean the evangelicals preferred Ted Cruz in 2016 and look like they're Desantis' main supporters, Trump isn't enough of a social conservative freak. TheDisreputableDog posted:Do you guys think it’s possible that poor white people in flyover, industrial burnout areas have legitimately been victimized in the last 50 years? "poor white people in flyover, industrial burnout areas" aren't the core of the Republican party. Marjorie Taylor Greene is a millionaire.
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Apr 2, 2023 19:06
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Do you guys think it’s possible that poor white people in flyover, industrial burnout areas have legitimately been victimized in the last 50 years? The moment a victim becomes a victimizer it is irrelevant either way.
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Apr 2, 2023 19:11
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In my experience, Trump has massive appeal to the constantly victimized mindset small business owner/landlord like nobody else I've ever seen since Dubbya specifically right after 9/11 (when he had that kind of support from almost everybody). Most of the rural lumpen who are getting hosed over instead of feeling hosed over because they watch TV news all day are about as relevant to anything that is going on as immigrant labor and urban lumpen. I could get a service worker with a Black Rifle Coffee shirt who lives in the cheapest place in town to sign up to vote for Bernie, but his boss, no fuckin way. I had to teach the former about class warfare, the latter already knows. It's not to say anybody is above the consequences of their actual actions, but there isn't a context in this country where power and priorities are driven by the will and concerns of the poor. Basically: James Garfield posted:"poor white people in flyover, industrial burnout areas" aren't the core of the Republican party. Marjorie Taylor Greene is a millionaire. edit - I'd like to put it out there now with my mod hat on that this is fine in regards to dumbass framing from the stenographer corps about MTG, but is in no way a license to start talking about the moral imperative of disowning family members.
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Apr 2, 2023 19:30
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Epic High Five posted:In my experience, Trump has massive appeal to the constantly victimized mindset small business owner/landlord like nobody else I've ever seen since Dubbya specifically right after 9/11 (when he had that kind of support from almost everybody). Most of the rural lumpen who are getting hosed over instead of feeling hosed over because they watch TV news all day are about as relevant to anything that is going on as immigrant labor and urban lumpen. I could get a service worker with a Black Rifle Coffee shirt who lives in the cheapest place in town to sign up to vote for Bernie, but his boss, no fuckin way. I had to teach the former about class warfare, the latter already knows. I think this is the crucial distinction about the majority of Trump's base vs. common media descriptions of same. Like previous fascists, his demographics are mostly bourgeois/petite-bourgeois types who feel deeply insecure and vulnerable to shifting socio-economic trends and movements, without in the main actually suffering significant damage from them. They have their petty little kingdoms and by god they're not giving up their privileges so some pink-haired androgynous weirdo can feel safe being themselves in public, or whatever other example you care to name. Now, the people actually getting screwed over by the capitalist hellword we live in are no less vulnerable to culture war distractions to be sure, but they're also usually much more keyed in to who/what specifically is giving them the shaft on a daily basis ie: their job, boss.
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Apr 2, 2023 19:46
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Looks like the race to the nomination just got blown wide open. Nothing will ever be the same again. https://twitter.com/AsaHutchinson/status/1642549889740488704
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Apr 2, 2023 19:59
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theyre going to repeat the clown car mistake again arent they.
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Apr 2, 2023 20:50
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I think if we can make it through the next 2-4 years the anti-trans movement will collapse as a political force just like the anti-gay movement did. With a massive coordinated campaign of dishonest demonization they are having a bit of success right now in bending public opinion against trans people, but they are only beating back a much larger and stronger tide. I think outlets like the Times are starting to realize what they have been contributing to and are changing their editorial approach to trans issues, although we'll have to wait and see. They posted a very good and factual op-ed from a leading doctor in the field this weekend which I will try to repost later. (That said, they've printed good poo poo before and then gone right back to "people are raising concerns..." days later so let's see how they do going forward...) The political establishment, your cosmopolitans like McConnell, don't actually give a crap about punishing trans people, and neither does Trump, they're just exploiting it as a wedge issue, and they'll be willing to drop it the second it stops working to their benefit. And capital isn't anti-trans, hell it probably wants more openly trans people so it can use its infinite marketing machine to make them feel bad about themselves and sell them beauty products. The second this poo poo shows the slightest indication of being an electoral liability rather than benefit, it's gone overnight. A SCOTUS decision against something like the Tennessee bill could be a step in the that direction, but obviously cases involving medical rights will be far more consequential. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Apr 2, 2023 |
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Apr 2, 2023 20:54
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Mellow Seas posted:I think if we can make it through the next 2-4 years the anti-trans movement will collapse as a political force just like the anti-gay movement did. With a massive coordinated campaign of dishonest demonization they are having a bit of success right now in bending public opinion against trans people, but they are only beating back a much larger and stronger tide. This is a very optimistic framing. The anti-gay thing is still very much a part of every day life for we gayses. It's not currently profitable, but there's no real animosity to corporations being anti-LGBT either. Chic-Fil-A is still extremely profitable and they're very open about hating me and my queer peers. If you're looking to the free market to pressure people into doing and saying the right thing, you're going to be waiting a long time. It's very hard to get people to do anything that might exert pressure on them, either -- try and tell people to maybe consider not being the wizard game because its creator is a megaterf and you mostly just get people calling you a fascist. Mellow Seas posted:The political establishment, your cosmopolitans like McConnell, don't actually give a crap about punishing trans people, and neither does Trump, they're just exploiting it as a wedge issue, and they'll be willing to drop it the second it stops working to their benefit This part is kinda true, but I think that the fact that they don't care about trans people specifically doesn't mean that they won't continue to use effective social nonsense to wedge people towards their financial goals. I think it's more likely that they will continue to create wedge issues on these sorts of bases because it's been extremely effective, and the Anglo-speaking arch conservative hate+money engine is pretty much the same people on an international level. The thing I think that a lot of people sleep on is just how powerful "thought leaders" really are. Since the "left" as it exists doesn't really lead by talking about how we should care about people and spend money on social progress, but the right's versions of the same thing are very, very vocal about pushing the agenda (specifically to create wedges).
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Apr 2, 2023 21:21
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Mellow Seas posted:
I sadly don't think so. The NYT still can't keep itself from posting a "Look at these college campus tyrants, complaining about MTG dropping by their schools to hype the woke menace!" piece every other week. All while conveniently coughing into their hand as DeSantis literally intitutes a censorship regime in FL and raises for his own state police. Both the NYT and the Washington Post purposefully refuse to admit that half of the two-party system is fundamentally hateful and exclusionary, because they are company vehicles in a company town. The horse-race is not all they know how to do: it's all they WANT to do. They'll go to their graves bitching democrats are wild commies that spend to much, no matter how many times the GOP explodes the budget or how often the dems rescue Big Corp instead of nationalizing stuff.
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Apr 2, 2023 21:32
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Trans bigotry is a replacement beach-head in the NYT to further its culture war in a post-Roe v Wade reality, for the obvious reason that we now live in a post-Roe v Wade reality. Why would the conservatives of the NYT ever stop running the playbook that got them what they want?
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Apr 2, 2023 21:46
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Mellow Seas posted:I think if we can make it through the next 2-4 years the anti-trans movement will collapse as a political force just like the anti-gay movement did. With a massive coordinated campaign of dishonest demonization they are having a bit of success right now in bending public opinion against trans people, but they are only beating back a much larger and stronger tide. The anti trans issue was a electoral liability in the midterms and the GOP doubled down.
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Apr 2, 2023 21:47
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Ershalim posted:If you're looking to the free market to pressure people into doing and saying the right thing, you're going to be waiting a long time. Gerund posted:Trans bigotry is a replacement beach-head in the NYT to further its culture war in a post-Roe v Wade reality, for the obvious reason that we now live in a post-Roe v Wade reality. Why would the conservatives of the NYT ever stop running the playbook that got them what they want?
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Apr 2, 2023 22:36
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