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See I was thinking "When are we going to fight Hermann? Because she's an antagonist meant For Gregor in the same way, that Jia Huan is meant for Hong Lu and Gubo is meant for Yi Sang, and yet we finished Gregor's chapter so if that's done and tied a ribbon on we won't get to fight her". Anyway, I quickly went through the other 9, this will be much faster because it's more speculatory than analytical: Yi Sang is Gloom, Envy, Sloth. Similar to Gregor, he's got an apathetic, detached attitude, I think the Envy bit comes from the connection to the Mirror/Identity tech and how it shows other lives, ones where you could possibly be living better. Faust is Pride, Sloth, and Gluttony. I think this is pretty clear: She's arrogant about her knowledge, she's still kind of relaxed/detached from everyone, and she's hungry to learn more. Don is Lust, Envy, and Gluttony. This is intriguing. Envy you could connect to her desire to be like noble Fixers, and Lust and Gluttony connect to her merch obsessions, but there could be more there. Ryoshu is Gluttony, Lust, and Pride. She's got a lot of bloodlust, she's always looking for aesthetically interesting things, and she clearly thinks she's hot poo poo, so this tracksk. Meursault is Sloth, Pride, Gloom. That's a very intriguing combination, but it does track: Apathy and detachment, combined with self-importance would balance each other out. He's not depressed, really, but he's also not arrogant. Hong Lu is Pride, Sloth, and Lust. Pride feels odd because it's not like he actively looks down on anyone in the group-Hong Lu is actually up there with Gregor as the person on this bus who's genuinely pretty nice. But he is always kind of accidentally condescending. Sloth is because he is/was idly rich, and Lust you could connect to him always being excited about new experiences. Heathcliff is Envy, Wrath, and Lust. This is pretty short and to the point. Jealous of the upper class, angry about it. Ishmael is Wrath, Gluttony, Gloom. Wrath will probably connect to Whale Rage, but this one I'm stumped on. Outis is Sloth, Pride, Gloom. Same set as Meursault just in a different order, and I'm a lot less certain on this one.
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Apr 2, 2023 08:56
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TheNabster posted:I'm curious about what they are going to do with the Sinners who have had story chapters going forward because there's clearly some hanging plot threads left and it would feel odd to be in the middle of Quixote's chapter for instance and the game suddenly goes, "Oh here's some bits about Demian, now back to Quixote's existential crisis hour." That said, it could be that N Corp is the antagonist of Inferno, Demian will be Purgatorio and who knows who'd be the villain of Paradiso (Carmen?)
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Apr 2, 2023 08:58
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Ishmael is Whale Rage, hungry for her vengeance, and depressed about the horrible journey she went on. Outis talks about the Oddessey having a purpose, but took forever to do it because of a bunch of distractions and doesn't appear to have actually completed it. Also she's proud of her military training. EDIT: And I just worked out why Outis has the Ebony Stem E.G.O. Eris and the Apple of Discord started the Trojan War, which the Illiad is the final parts of and the "reason" Odysseus goes on the Odyssey. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Apr 2, 2023 |
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Apr 2, 2023 09:07
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Yi Sang's Envy, if The Wings was anything to go by, could be tied to his life 'before' all of this being extremely sheltered and focused on his research, while he genuinely might have wanted the kinds of lives other people had... Which would explain a lot about why he'd be spearheading the research into the mirror tech to begin with. I think it's also worth examining the Sin Resonant Weaknesses on all of their default EGO: Since the visual scenes of those EGO mostly show them imprisoned and facing the trauma that defines them as Sinners (at least 3/3 so far with the Golden Bough resonation dungeons), the Sins each character is weak (and strong) against might say something about them as well. Everybody has 2 Fatal weaknesses and a single 0.75x Resist by default, so let's see here... 1, Yi Sang: Fatal to Gloom and Envy, endures Sloth. His prison window shows a simple table with some kind of case on top, and dozens of mirrors lining the walls. 2, Faust: Fatal to Lust and Gluttony, endures Pride. Her window* shows a researcher studying what looks to be the Extraction chain-sphere that is now inside Mephistopheles. 3, Don Quixote: Fatal to Wrath and Gloom, endures Lust. Her prison window shows a carousel poster ripped through the center to reveal dozens of impaled bodies where horses belong. 4, Ryoshu: Fatal to Gluttony and Envy, endures Lust. Her prison window shows five enormous literal fingers dressed as The Fingers, as in all of the City's major Syndicates. 5, Meursault: Fatal to Lust and Gluttony, endures Pride. His prison window shows an endless grey city full of endless grey strangers in hats and long coats, with a smattering of barbed wire. 6, Hong Lu: Fatal to Wrath and Envy, endures Gloom. His prison window shows a gigantic red mansion built on a tiny island in a sea filled with spear cliffs, viewed from between a pair of shrubs. 7, Heathcliff: Fatal to Lust and Gluttony, endures Envy. His prison window shows a tiny structure, possibly the top of a house or a building complex viewed from a distance, buried beneath the waves inside a roaring storm. 8, Ishmael: Fatal to Lust and Sloth, endures Gloom. Her prison window shows a stormy sea so wide it has consumed everything else: There might be hints of wreckage at most in the zoom-out. 9, Rodion: Fatal to Gloom and Envy, endures Pride. Her prison window shows the events and aftermath of her actions that led to her Mirror Dungeon: The deaths of her entire Backstreets neighborhood in the winter cold. 11, Sinclair: Fatal to Wrath and Pride, endures Gluttony. His prison window shows the events that would have occurred if he made a different choice: A family dinner as we saw in his flashbacks, but with his prosthetic head too. 12, Outis: Fatal to Lust and Envy, endures Pride. Her prison window shows a bright red battlefield taking place in front of towering buildings, seen from either a distance or a height or both. Actually... 13, Gregor: Fatal to Gloom and Envy, endures Sloth. His prison window shows what might be the exact same battlefield but from a "boots on the ground" perspective instead of a higher and more distant view. *- Faust is the only Sinner whose default EGO is not snared in barbed wire and who is not actively wearing prison stripes: Her coat is on the handle of Walpurgisnacht Broom Edition in the corner instead. As for interpreting all of these I am gonna save that for tomorrow because it is now 10 am.  Although actually some quick weird statistical notes, here's the Fatal vs Endured count for all 7 Sins: code:Ariamaki fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Apr 2, 2023 |
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Apr 2, 2023 14:59
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Junpei posted:Ishmael is Wrath, Gluttony, Gloom. Wrath will probably connect to Whale Rage, but this one I'm stumped on. Ishmael is pretty simple, in my opinion? As you can see in the rest of your post, Gluttony is more about consuming obsessions than the ha ha fat joke angle most takes on the seven deadly sins take. Taken as a whole, Ishmael is someone who's still hosed up from the trauma of her voyage and she wants to find the Good Violence which will wrap up that whole chapter in her life and give her catharsis. But she isn't getting it, or even getting a shred of hope for how she could get it, so instead those urges bubble up as the occasional random violent outburst. She should get therapy to process this trauma, but this is the City. Instead of doing that, she's trying to post through it by acting like a serious professional, which means she's being a random agent constantly surrounded by violence in every timeline we've seen her in so far, which just makes her unfulfillable dreams of vengeance and violent inability to process it worse. (Also, someone could probably make a similar effort post about what EGOs each character can use and what that means about them, but that person isn't going to be me.)
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Apr 2, 2023 15:28
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Lord_Magmar posted:26 Nexts (A-Z) and 12 Sinners calculates to 2 nests pers Sinner plus 2 additional nests (Dante?). I would be surprised if went into all the nests. ABC are probably off limits. Also despite the card stating there are 26 nests I am pretty sure there is at least no Z with the outskirts taking its place? Not totally sure about that but I think it is true.
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Apr 2, 2023 16:27
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Ariamaki posted:
The “endure” affinities are the same as the ones on the actual EGO attacks.
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Apr 2, 2023 16:36
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Sam Sanskrit posted:I would be surprised if went into all the nests. ABC are probably off limits. Also despite the card stating there are 26 nests I am pretty sure there is at least no Z with the outskirts taking its place? Not totally sure about that but I think it is true. Z exists, we just have no idea where. But it exists, there's 26 nests and 26 wings it would be very strange for Z-Corp to just have the Outskirts as its "Nest". My honest assumption is Z is either across the sea or under the ground. Across the Sea would make sense with at minimum Ishmael's backstory including a lengthy sea journey. The city has parts of it over/in what looks to be an ocean-front as well on the map. It is also possible that no Z-Corp has ever managed to form, and as such they don't have a Nest yet.
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Apr 2, 2023 16:48
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Considering how much of a force the Sweepers are and how they've got some contract with the Head going on, I'd be somewhat shocked if they weren't Z-Corp.
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Apr 2, 2023 16:56
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GilliamYaeger posted:Considering how much of a force the Sweepers are and how they've got some contract with the Head going on, I'd be somewhat shocked if they weren't Z-Corp. I could buy that, the Sweepers are described as returning home to a Nest/Family structure at some points I believe? Edit: Zweeperz?
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Apr 2, 2023 16:58
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Lord_Magmar posted:I could buy that, the Sweepers are described as returning home to a Nest/Family structure at some points I believe?
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Apr 2, 2023 17:00
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Just defeated Kromer. What should I do next?
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Apr 2, 2023 17:41
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Now you play around with different teams for the mirror dungeons and max difficulty luxcavations, level up your little mans, and wait for the railway update. Also you can start instantly max converting all your enkephalin to modules whenever you log in or level up since all the endgame stuff just costs those instead of raw E.
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Apr 2, 2023 17:44
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:Just defeated Kromer. What should I do next?
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Apr 2, 2023 17:51
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GilliamYaeger posted:Now you farm the mirror dungeon until your soul bleeds for shard boxes. That would be a great line in an emo song based on this game.
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Apr 2, 2023 18:26
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Given Nails are Bleed extenders/adders, are a mixed Kurokumo Clan/N Corp team a solid set-up?
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Apr 2, 2023 19:51
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four n corp plus kuro ryoshu is a great time
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Apr 2, 2023 19:52
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Junpei posted:Given Nails are Bleed extenders/adders, are a mixed Kurokumo Clan/N Corp team a solid set-up? I'd say yes if player nails didn't give an entire 1 bleed count no matter what and also decay at half the count every turn. They're actually almost completely useless for bleed.
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Apr 2, 2023 20:23
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Junpei posted:Given Nails are Bleed extenders/adders, are a mixed Kurokumo Clan/N Corp team a solid set-up? Outside of mirror dungeons where EGO gifts can really juice them, status effects are mostly a nice side bonus and not the main thing you wanna build a team around. Even getting something crazy impractical like 10 stacks of bleed with 3 count is gonna add less damage than one solid hit of a type the enemy is weak to. If you're looking for team synergies you probably wanna pay more attention to E.G.O. than to stuff like bleed
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Apr 2, 2023 20:32
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Roseate Desire is throwing my head for a loop. What's the difference between Defense Level Down and Defense Power Down?
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Apr 2, 2023 20:57
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Defense level = the actual stat shown on the character/enemy's info page which affects damage taken through some opaque calculation Defense power = clash power for defensive actions like block/evade/counter. Completely meaningless if the enemy doesn't take one of those actions.
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Apr 2, 2023 21:00
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:Outside of mirror dungeons where EGO gifts can really juice them, status effects are mostly a nice side bonus and not the main thing you wanna build a team around. Even getting something crazy impractical like 10 stacks of bleed with 3 count is gonna add less damage than one solid hit of a type the enemy is weak to. If you're looking for team synergies you probably wanna pay more attention to E.G.O. than to stuff like bleed  You underestimate my power. And this was BEFORE N Faust released. The main issue with bleed isn't stacking it - it's actually real easy to hit big stacks. It's that everything dies too fast to really allow those stacks to build up. On something tough enough to take it bleed could do a LOT of damage.
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Apr 2, 2023 21:53
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:Outside of mirror dungeons where EGO gifts can really juice them, status effects are mostly a nice side bonus and not the main thing you wanna build a team around. Even getting something crazy impractical like 10 stacks of bleed with 3 count is gonna add less damage than one solid hit of a type the enemy is weak to. If you're looking for team synergies you probably wanna pay more attention to E.G.O. than to stuff like bleed With how easy the game is, if you wanna build a status effect built it can work. Only exception is Kromer, who has specific mechanics against bleed.
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Apr 2, 2023 23:51
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Lord_Magmar posted:I could buy that, the Sweepers are described as returning home to a Nest/Family structure at some points I believe? they're an unyielding, unflinching wave of death, made of things that used to be people. Zombie?
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Apr 3, 2023 01:14
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GilliamYaeger posted:Now you farm the mirror dungeon until your soul bleeds for shard boxes.
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Apr 3, 2023 02:59
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:What are good team compositions for mindless Click-Winrate grinding? synergies don't matter since if you're just spamming the winrate button youll never use EGOs anyways, and character passives are currently pretty ignorable (pending the upcoming buff/rework to them?) so just pick the 5 individual clash-winningest characters you've got  (full spreadsheet here) liu gregor is insanely good, probably the best 00 in the game RPATDO_LAMD fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Apr 3, 2023 |
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Apr 3, 2023 03:20
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Just remember to never W Corp Don or R Corp Ishmael when autoing Mirror or dailies, because the Auto AI does not understand charge and has no special cut-outs to avoid Warp Space and Mind Whip when they don't have enough charge. The real timesaver in Mirror Dungeon auto runs it to beeline for the largest number of Event spaces you can. Generally speaking levels and EGO Gifts aren't that important, Mirror Dungeon is easy, so minimizing the number of fights is important. RPATDO_LAMD posted:synergies don't matter since if you're just spamming the winrate button youll never use EGOs anyways, and character passives are currently pretty ignorable (pending the upcoming buff/rework to them?) Liu Gregor has 0 Gluttony and therefore can't do much to support Legerdemain, especially since its only Sloth is the 1x attack. Legerdemain is one of the best EGO in the game and a Gregor Identity that's bad at using it is a bad Gregor Identity, even if it's great at other things.
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Apr 3, 2023 03:33
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he's one of 5 members of the party so if you are really attached to that one particular ego you can just put, like LCCB ishmael and blade lineage sinclair or something in the other 4 party slots, it's not like it makes any difference whether your greens come from greg or someone else  although I can't say I've actually tried a legerdemain ego spam team so maybe I'm missing something
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Apr 3, 2023 03:44
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Einander posted:Just remember to never W Corp Don or R Corp Ishmael when autoing Mirror or dailies, because the Auto AI does not understand charge and has no special cut-outs to avoid Warp Space and Mind Whip when they don't have enough charge. This is a bad argument because Legerdemain is itself Gluttony, so you build the rest of the team to get Gluttony and Sloth and then you have Greg use Leg every turn. Given that, I don't see the obsession in the meta with being self-fueling. If anything, the person spamming the EGO is the worst person to have relevant skills for the EGO, since you want them using the EGO and not using the skills that fuel it.
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Apr 3, 2023 03:50
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TeeQueue posted:This is a bad argument because Legerdemain is itself Gluttony, so you build the rest of the team to get Gluttony and Sloth and then you have Greg use Leg every turn. Given that, I don't see the obsession in the meta with being self-fueling. I think the main thing with Greg is that since he has Gluttony and sloth in the right "ratio", he helps get there and then doesn't lose anything from endlessly using Ego. Honestly G-Corp Greg + Legerdemain and Fairies is probably one of the best "solo-meme" options available right now so that's kind of fun. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Apr 3, 2023 |
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Apr 3, 2023 03:53
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Einander posted:Just remember to never W Corp Don or R Corp Ishmael when autoing Mirror or dailies, because the Auto AI does not understand charge and has no special cut-outs to avoid Warp Space and Mind Whip when they don't have enough charge. Though in my experience it almost never picks Warp Space anyway so you can probably get away with W Don regardless :V idk about how much it picks Mind Whip since I haven't used my R Ish much though.
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Apr 3, 2023 03:53
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ArashiKurobara posted:Though in my experience it almost never picks Warp Space anyway so you can probably get away with W Don regardless :V Warp Space without the charge count is only 1 + 2 per coin, so the machine doesn't think it clashes well (max value 11, minimum 1). R-Corp Ish it absolutely will just Mind Whip people, since the charge mechanic for that one doesn't change the coins and it has absurdly good coins.
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Apr 3, 2023 04:01
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Einander posted:Liu Gregor has 0 Gluttony and therefore can't do much to support Legerdemain, especially since its only Sloth is the 1x attack. Legerdemain is one of the best EGO in the game and a Gregor Identity that's bad at using it is a bad Gregor Identity, even if it's great at other things. ...Do any fights other than Kromer last long enough to even use EGO?
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Apr 3, 2023 04:11
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:he's one of 5 members of the party so if you are really attached to that one particular ego you can just put, like LCCB ishmael and blade lineage sinclair or something in the other 4 party slots, it's not like it makes any difference whether your greens come from greg or someone else TeeQueue posted:This is a bad argument because Legerdemain is itself Gluttony, so you build the rest of the team to get Gluttony and Sloth and then you have Greg use Leg every turn. Given that, I don't see the obsession in the meta with being self-fueling. Two things: 1) A multi-target EGO's targeting priority is "target the rest of the remaining action slots of the target, then move to the first target and repeat" and each target can only be hit once. (Notably different slots on an abnormality count as different targets, so they can get hit 2-3 times with the right slot set-up.) So a turn 2 MT EGO is better than a turn 3 or turn 4 MT EGO, because it's less likely to waste a targeting slot on an enemy. A Gregor that can contribute to a turn 2 Legerdemain is more likely to be doing 54-69 damage instead of 36-46, and with how staggering works that 54-69 is even larger than it looks because it's getting you closer to a threshold where they'll start taking Fatal hits. 1.5) That applies double if you got Heads and also Gregor had a high speed roll that turn, since they're also paralyzed and on average that's usually a good thing, since plus coins are more common than minus coins. 2) If you're in a dungeon and half of your Sin resources are carried over between fights, a Gregor that can regularly contribute Gluttony is increasing that stack for when you need it. Going into a fight with 4x Gluttony 2x Sloth is much, much better than going into it with 2x Gluttony 1x Sloth because of 1) above. ArashiKurobara posted:Though in my experience it almost never picks Warp Space anyway so you can probably get away with W Don regardless :V From observation, R Corp Ishmael on Auto will seemingly pick Mind Whip 100% of the time. She's out for blood and she does not care where it comes from.
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Apr 3, 2023 04:11
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Einander posted:Two things: Interesting considerations, and they make me think this might be a 'TQ is playing with a fundamentally different set of assumptions than what is normal' situation again. 1) This first point only comes up when you're dealing with human fights, as in abno battles skill slots are more set-in-stone (barring passives like pink shoes), and so a 3 slot AOE is going to be more or less the same level of effective no matter when it comes up. There aren't currently any human fights that are challenging or long enough for this to really make a difference in overall clear speed vs just saving the EGO for the start of phase 2/3—where enemies already have 2 slots each and thus you're guaranteed to hit only 2 people no matter what. Using phase 1 to set up for a massive spam and instantly delete the second or third wave is a super consistent way to hit EX clears even through all of chapter 3, and within that context Liu Greg's Blunt damage type is way more valuable than G corp's Slash/Pierce—if I'm Staggering them with my opening salvo, I don't need to worry about if I can Leg spam on turn 2. 2) In mirror dungeons, EGO are basically a time-wasting emergency move you use to either flex or because you're about to die. The optimal strat for me is LCR Faust/BunCliff/LCCB Ish speedrun, to the point where I rarely even level up anyone else at this point. Using EGO at all is an efficiency loss, I want quick attacks that kill enemies ASAP. In story dungeons, any fight you'd really want to save EGO for there's a checkpoint right in front of—these checkpoints reset your HP, Sanity, and also your stockpiled EGO resources. The stockpiles don't matter unless you really want to clown on that one 4-inquisitor fight that everyone hates. Given that, I'm mostly looking at things in terms of what we know about Refraction Railway, a super-hard content where the idea is that sins don't decay, and there will be a wide variety of foes to be taken down by a single team ASAP. Within that framework, I don't think being able to support your own EGO really matters all that much compared to being able to kill quickly while ideally stockpiling resources for the really big AOE EGO like Faust Sac. Leg could certainly be a target since none of the other good AOEs currently use much Gluttony, but like... it strikes me as kinda a secondary option, rather than a thing to Strive For. If that makes sense.
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Apr 3, 2023 05:31
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Lord_Magmar posted:
It feels worth noting that, as far as I can recall, the game never says Ishmael's voyage was on an ocean, just a "vast body of water" or something like that. Going out of its way to not use words like "Ocean" or "Sea" makes me think that her voyage wasn't on something as mundane as a geological feature, but in some sort of bizarre pocket dimension or something. Junpei posted:
Shastahanshah posted:...Do any fights other than Kromer last long enough to even use EGO? If you build your team right and focus on using the right colors, it can. I generally end up having Ebony Queen and Legerdemain ready at the start of the second wave for the Level 3 EXP Luxcavation. Even without a team built for it, if you're in a story or mirror dungeon you only lose half your sin resources at the end of a fight instead of all of them, so eventually you'll have enough from that alone.
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Apr 3, 2023 05:40
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Gluttony might also, for Gregor, be that his arm seems to have a mind of its own at times that hungers for blood.
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Apr 3, 2023 05:56
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I, uh, don't even have Legerdemain yet (only picked up the game this week). Hence, the need for a team to grind dungeons.
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Apr 3, 2023 06:08
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:I, uh, don't even have Legerdemain yet (only picked up the game this week). Hence, the need for a team to grind dungeons. I swear by R corp Heath/LobCorp Remnants Faust/LCCB Manager ishmael as my big three, at uptie 3 they can basically handle the dungeon themselves. But failing that, as long as they're Uptie 3 you can make things worth with almost any team, you're just losing out on time. Characters with lots and lots of coins on their skills are good, like basically any Hong Lu... the important thing is hitting that u3 to get their full potential.
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Apr 3, 2023 06:38
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TeeQueue posted:Interesting considerations, and they make me think this might be a 'TQ is playing with a fundamentally different set of assumptions than what is normal' situation again. Yeah, at this point it's all just theory-crafting for potential stuff down the road. There's no super-challenging human fight yet where you really want that turn 2 MT EGO, but I'm pretty sure that's still going to be optimal. There's no harder Mirror Dungeon difficulty where building up resources is important yet either, but I'm pretty sure that's also going to be optimal. Until the content actually exists, though, can't do much more than shadowbox. Though that said, a note on story dungeons--I can't remember if those checkpoints heal your HP and reset your SP and Sin resources more than once. If they don't, then it'd be easy enough to pick a route, get to the checkpoint, and then backtrack to a fight on an alternative route to trade potential HP loss for farming better SP and Sins before a big fight. That seems like that'd be pretty comfortably optimal. And I imagine story dungeons are going to be more like chapter 3 going forward, with internal quest chains and challenge fights even outside of floor-enders, and in those checkpoints won't be a factor. With Refraction Railway, I'm expecting more fights are going to be like Cyborgs, Headless and Kromer--there's big attacks you need EGO to clash against every 2-3 turns or else you need to stagger the right part before or during that turn. It feels like that's the mechanical demand the EGO and Sin mechanics are gesturing toward for harder content. In which case you do want Gregor fueling his own EGO, because you're on a constant timer to meet Sin goals, and having even one more person outputting the Sins for a designated priority EGO matters. Legerdemain doing more per Sin than other EGO gives it a pretty good claim to priority status. We'll see, though! About three more days before Refraction 1.
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Apr 3, 2023 07:05
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