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Sleeping on trains seems like an absolute dream until you try. I found it pretty hard to fall asleep with all that movement and not just side to side it's the stopping and going.
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Mar 20, 2023 23:18
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I looked at sleeper train options once and what I found is you pay an absolute fortune unless you have a group of people to travel with or don't mind sharing a cramped cabin with complete strangers.
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Mar 21, 2023 08:19
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Even with 2 adults and one child, the price was comparable to a plane ticket for going from Paris to Toulouse. We tried it for the novelty. Strongly recommend booking a sleeper compartment for just you and friends/family. It wasn't a great night's sleep. The rocking and the stranger (We were 3 and the 4th bunk was somebody else) kept me awake. Granted, I sleep poorly at the best of times. If you are the sort that sleeps soundly or has nostalgia for sleeping on long car trips, it'll probably be fine. Fruits of the sea fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Mar 21, 2023 |
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Mar 21, 2023 09:13
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Isn't Paris - Toulouse like a five hour trip? I generally wouldn't book a night train trip under ten hours, because having the time to actually sleep and wake up slowly is a big deal.
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Mar 21, 2023 09:20
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Carbon dioxide posted:I looked at sleeper train options once and what I found is you pay an absolute fortune unless you have a group of people to travel with or don't mind sharing a cramped cabin with complete strangers. They can also be OK for certain routes, like Italy has really nice ones, or at least the Palermo-Rome sleeper is super nice. A double room is like €100/ea (or was last April), so a lot more expensive than flying, but also nice to not have to waste a day getting to/from airports, and I slept as well as in a hotel. OTOH the Austrian sleeper trains are ancient and uncomfortable and I don't sleep well in them, but they are still much cheaper than flying on certain routes, like going from Zurich to Vienna by plane is often very expensive, or used to be, I haven't had to do that route in several years. But yeah overnight trains have a hard time competing when connecting any cities that LLCs connect. You save on a hotel but if you don't sleep well then it defeats the point. Let's see how all of France's new night trains work. Gen Z and Millennials seems to love the idea, but I bet in practice will vote with their wallets and/or the seeming time-savings of a plane, even if that's not really accurate. At least anecdotally I see my Gen Z relatives, now that they're old enough to have a little money and travel independently, go from rabidly anti-plane and strongly anti-meat at age 16, to flying off to Mykonos for gyros for 5 days at age 20.
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Mar 21, 2023 10:05
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Ras Het posted:Isn't Paris - Toulouse like a five hour trip? I generally wouldn't book a night train trip under ten hours, because having the time to actually sleep and wake up slowly is a big deal. It was about 8 hours from what I recall. Noticeably longer than booking a train in the daytime. E: we've arrived in Toulouse from different directions by train, bus, car, plane and hiking. Think the only mode of transportation left to try is biking 
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Mar 21, 2023 10:38
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Having done a few sleeper train trips in east Asia (some nice, some horrible), in terms of comfort I’d much rather pay extra for a hotel and just wake up extra early for a morning flight. That being said, I’m against the idea of short haul domestic flights like here in the UK, purely for environmental reasons. It’s just a shame that trains are so slow and expensive here.
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Mar 21, 2023 10:41
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Last time I took a sleeper train was in Uzbekistan and it looked something like this just full. Basically a rolling open-plan hostel. Four beds in the sections on the left and two length-wise on the right. Interesting experience, to say the least. My last train trip was at 3-6am in "business class" but the seats didn't fold out or recline at all. E: Oh actually I've done a proper sleeper train in Eastern Europe over a decade ago back when I was in school and spending a day just doing nothing was cool. I think it wasn't too bad, it's an interesting experience if you've never tried it. mobby_6kl fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Mar 21, 2023 |
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Mar 21, 2023 11:56
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I am a good/heavy sleeper and my one experience on a sleeper train was not good. Private cabin for my wife and I, on a six hour train got maybe two hours’ sleep total. It was nice to have the travel time overnight to get full days of sightseeing on either side but do not recommended if you can avoid.
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Mar 21, 2023 12:00
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Fruits of the sea posted:It was about 8 hours from what I recall. Noticeably longer than booking a train in the daytime. There's a high-speed train from Paris to Bordeaux now (well, since 2017), so it only takes 4.5 hours from Paris-Toulouse if you did it during the daytime post-2017. They're starting later this year to build the rest of the line to Toulouse, which will make it Paris-Toulouse in just over 3 hours whenever that finishes, so like... 2030+. France is also finally finishing another high-speed section on the southern line, which will make Paris-Barcelona a ridiculously fast 6 hour train trip. It'll apparently be 5 hours if they ever get around to doing the last little bit between Montpellier and the border. I like the ideas of night trains but I'm definitely not going to spend more money on a slower train. High speed rail probably killed off night trains as much as did LLC airlines.
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Mar 21, 2023 12:40
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I've had mixed experiences with sleeper trains and ferries but overall still think they are a great idea. And I usually go for cheaper options. Sometimes you indeed get a train that is just normal seats if you take the cheap option. This happened to me once in Norway (Bergen-Oslo), so I was not really able to sleep on that one. I've also used the cheap option from Prague to Budapest and there the seats fold down into a complete bed surface. I was with two friends so we were able to claim an entire cabin even though we did not reserve it (6 seats), and folded the seats down. We got harassed by a drunk guy only once and by passport control also only once, so it was quite acceptable. Once I took a night train from Lisbon to Madrid with the slightly less cheap option, which was about 50 euros. I got a small room with two bunk beds and slept great. Cheaper than a flight + a hotel stay for sure. More recently I also took Greek sleeper ferries a few times, again paying for a room, and it was not that expensive and I slept well. In those you could also get a regular ticket and camp somewhere in the hallways or outside (not bad in summer). Overall definitely worth it, if only because you save the hassle of airport security, luggage restrictions and you wake up right in the center of the city that you wanted to go to. It's also clearly cheaper than high speed trains in my experience.
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Mar 21, 2023 13:30
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Saladman posted:There's a high-speed train from Paris to Bordeaux now (well, since 2017), so it only takes 4.5 hours from Paris-Toulouse if you did it during the daytime post-2017. They're starting later this year to build the rest of the line to Toulouse, which will make it Paris-Toulouse in just over 3 hours whenever that finishes, so like... 2030+. France is also finally finishing another high-speed section on the southern line, which will make Paris-Barcelona a ridiculously fast 6 hour train trip. It'll apparently be 5 hours if they ever get around to doing the last little bit between Montpellier and the border. That line is so fast until you get to Bordeaux (2h for a journey the same distance as London-Edinburgh or NYC-Pittsburgh!) But it just grinds to a halt after that at the moment even though they're nominally TGV lines. There's vague talk of a direct London-Bordeaux service which would be awesome, it's almost all high speed lines already.
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Mar 21, 2023 13:31
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Ten years ago I took the sleeper train from Kyiv to Odessa with a friend. We booked 'lux' tickets so you can get a single compartment with two beds, instead of having to share a four bed compartment with some randoms. And the normal tickets were sold out anyway. Buying those tickets with my limited Ukrainian and Russian skills is still one of the crowning linguistic achievements of my life. It was a decent enough ride and night for me, but my friend didn't have any ear plugs, so he barely slept because of just the sounds of the train moving over the track. It was a bit surreal, arriving at Odessa early in the morning, getting breakfast at a night club on the beach because it was the only place that was open and we had to wait for our rooms to be made ready at our hotel. I'm actually thinking about taking the train the next time I go to Spain or Italy (from the Netherlands). I don't think I'd take a sleeper, though. Instead, I'll get a hotel somewhere in France and just spend some time there as well. That's mostly because sleepers directly from Amsterdam to Italy are exclusively package holidays, and I'd rather put myself on the train tracks than take one of those
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Mar 21, 2023 14:09
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I'm taking the sleeper from Utrecht to Basel next week. Four beds, with randoms, and I'm just taking one. Curious how it'll go. (taking the regular train from Basel to Milan later that day)
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Mar 21, 2023 14:17
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I've taken sleeper trains before. The one experience that stands out is my train obsessed roommate/friend (who now works for the Swiss Federal Office of Transport) assisting in booking a bed in a 6 bed compartment car. "Don't worry, they're segregated by gender" he said. The route starts in Amsterdam, ends in Munich. I hop on at Cologne at half past midnight, find my compartment, try to open the door in vain until a young woman unlocks the door for me. It was just the two of us in this car. I did sleep okay but woke up feeling a little woozy like after a night of drinking. My girlfriend has never been to Europe and we only have 15 days there, so I convinced her to take the night train between Krakow and Budapest. Otherwise, there's one train during the day and it takes nine hours. Ferdinand Bardamu fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Mar 21, 2023 |
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Mar 21, 2023 15:34
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My dad worked in the rail industry and as a result we got free train travel across much of Europe when I was little. This included sleeper trains. I have fond memories of them, but it was a long time ago. They're definitely not plush for the most part, and obviously them being free helped. They differ from sleeper trains in Australia, Canada and the US in that they're not usually aimed specifically at tourists, but I probably wouldn't consider them nowadays unless I was already on the continent and the pricing and timing were just right.Lady Gaza posted:That being said, I’m against the idea of short haul domestic flights like here in the UK, purely for environmental reasons. It’s just a shame that trains are so slow and expensive here. I try to follow this too. I probably would consider long-distance domestic train travel a lot more if it were significantly cheaper and practical. My first proper trip after the worst of covid was to Glasgow from Birmingham, and try as I might I just couldn't justify taking the train because money was fairly tight at the time. I felt terrible for it, but it was a fraction of the price and got you there in one hour as opposed to something like six hours with multiple changes (Glasgow and Birmingham airports are also relatively trouble-free in my experience). One thing I will say to anyone coming to the UK or Ireland from the continent or travelling the other way: trains and ferries can be a decent option if you have the time and a slightly more lenient budget. Because of the proliferation of budget flights, many of them are quite competitively priced, especially the UK-Ireland ferries. I've not ridden on a long-distance ferry for a long time, but I'm told that they can be decently comfortable, notwithstanding the regularly unpleasant conditions in the Irish and North Seas. Eurostar is a bit more expensive than flying, requires you to get to St Pancras first, and the station facilities leave a lot to be desired (especially at Amsterdam, where the "lounge" just flat-out sucks), but it feels cleaner than flying and is a lot more convenient. The baggage limits are a lot more forgiving, and you go through UK and Schengen passport control together at your starting station, meaning you just get off the train already at your destination without any further faff.
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Mar 21, 2023 16:13
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Plus there will always be plenty of empty seats on the Eurostar since Brexit has slowed down passport checks so much. They're understaffed after COVID and now British travelers need their passports stamped as well so that means that 1/3 of the seats aren't being sold just to keep things on schedule  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jan/24/eurostar-trains-empty-seats-brexit-passport-rules-london-paris-brussels
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Mar 21, 2023 16:47
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mobby_6kl posted:Last time I took a sleeper train was in Uzbekistan and it looked something like this just full. Basically a rolling open-plan hostel. Four beds in the sections on the left and two length-wise on the right. Interesting experience, to say the least. My last train trip was at 3-6am in "business class" but the seats didn't fold out or recline at all. that is a lot of feet to inhale all night. The other problem with sleeper cars is if you're like me you think it's an excuse to drink way too much wine with your friends during the day and man waking up hung over on a sleeper car is kind of hellish
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Mar 21, 2023 17:19
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I mean, specifically, that Euston to Glasgow sleeper was the best night of sleep in my life. I slept like a corpse and woke up when the conductor knocked on my compartment door to ask whether I'd prefer coffee or tea with breakfast, and then woke up again when then brought it to the compartment. I walked off the train like Jesus leaving the cave. The guy asking the question is traveling as a couple, and all the compartments on that train two-bed or for families. I've also slept on the shelves in 6-shelf "couchette" compartments or whatever, but only ever in places west of Vienna/Prague/Berlin. Phone, wallet, and docs in my front pockets, and if someone wants to steal my dirty undies, they can have 'em. It was fun to talk with pre-teens who were excited to practice English and try to give me lessons in their language while their parents seemed glad for a chance to ignore them and read. Otherwise, it's all quality "mind-your-business" types. Sleeping on a boat, though... that's where I spend all night half-awake for fear of sleeping through the abandon ship alarm!
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Mar 21, 2023 18:47
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greazeball posted:Plus there will always be plenty of empty seats on the Eurostar since Brexit has slowed down passport checks so much. They're understaffed after COVID and now British travelers need their passports stamped as well so that means that 1/3 of the seats aren't being sold just to keep things on schedule Trains are like planes in that the customs check is done at the destination, right?
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Mar 21, 2023 19:25
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nope, with Eurostar if you're travelling from the UK the customs checks are before you leave
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Mar 21, 2023 19:28
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Ok, good to know. But who does the checks? Like if you’re going from London to Amsterdam, are they British or Dutch agents at St. Pancras?
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Mar 21, 2023 19:32
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Neither, they're French
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Mar 21, 2023 20:04
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Greg12 posted:Sleeping on a boat, though... that's where I spend all night half-awake for fear of sleeping through the abandon ship alarm! I am a very cautious sleeper, and can barely ever manage to sleep anywhere even vaguely unfamiliar, but I grew up in a family where our holidays were mostly spent on fairly small sailing boats, so as a child, I got very accustomed to sleeping over deep water. One time, one of my aunts asked how I could relax knowing that I was about 2 inches of fibreglass away from boundless depths, and I was just flummoxed. The boat is safe and comfy! The waves rock you gently to sleep, and when you nod off, you'll probably wake up somewhere interesting 
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Mar 21, 2023 20:24
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WithoutTheFezOn posted:Ok, good to know. There are British agents at every station in continental Europe where Eurostar stops, to check people boarding and going to Britain. There's French agents at London Pancreas Station to check everyone boarding to go into Schengen.
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Mar 21, 2023 22:40
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Right, thanks. I keep forgetting about the Union/Region “just do it once” things.
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Mar 21, 2023 22:56
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kiimo posted:that is a lot of feet to inhale all night.
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Mar 22, 2023 11:33
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https://youtu.be/y1sVYhbUDOI I’m going to die in the crowds. Thanks goons for travel tips but I’m a terrible planner. Rome is not easy mode like Kyoto. Oh well. But now I will use wanderlost and plan properly 5 days Rome + 2 days Naples + 2 days Florence/Pisa + 4 days Milan + 1 night Rome and fly out. Not too confident, do have my international drivers license. But yeah… hopefully I can get a day trip to some nice town here or there and stil manage to eat in my restaurants. Close 11pm or 12am, I should be ok, right???? Or wake up 5:30am every morning to avoid the crowds
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Mar 31, 2023 23:56
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That video looks totally fine except for Trevi Fountain, which always is awful, and to a lesser extent Piazza Navona and Spanish Steps and the piazza in front of the Pantheon. Most of the rest of the streets look no more crowded than you’d see in the city center of any capital city of 5 million people or whatever Rome has. No clue how you manage Tokyo or Osaka public transport if you think those central Rome areas are too crowded, except for Trevi Fountain. The mass of people in front of the Pantheon is a queue. What are you not too confident about? Based on your itinerary I don’t even see where you would rent a car or even want one. It is nice for Tuscany but 2 days Florence+Pisa doesn’t actually leave time for Tuscan countryside.
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Apr 1, 2023 07:19
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Went I went to Rome I was shocked at the crowds at the Trevi fountain but yeah otherwise it’s just a busy city.
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Apr 1, 2023 07:43
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Yeah that looks pretty typical to me? I haven't been to Rome since 2018, but the 3-4 times I've seen the Trevi Fountain it's basically always been like that. It's one of the most popular spots in one of the most popular cities in the world, so I'm hardly surprised there's a lot of people. I guess it's busier than usual since March isn't really tourist season? I dunno. Just feels a bit like being surprised that Times Square or Disneyland is packed with people, even on a cold morning in shoulder season. Unless you're a really confident driver and you have a genuine need to, don't rent a car in Italy. The drivers are pretty reckless, the signs aren't great, the roads are kinda shabby, and every town/village/city has a ZTL. What's a ZTL? It's a Zona Traffico Limitato, or a limited traffic zone, ie locals only. They're signposted, but it's easy to miss if you aren't prepared, google maps etc doesn't often know about them and will direct you straight through, plus there'll be locals cars head through and you'll just follow along. But they're enforced by camera and the fine (usually 50-100 euros) goes direct to the rental car company, and they'll pass it along to you with a hefty fee. Italian car companies are also known to send unpaid fines like this to debt collectors, so even being out of the country won't save you. I don't really see anything on your itinerary that needs a car, to be honest.
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Apr 1, 2023 07:46
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Four days in Milan seems like four days too many. ymmv
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Apr 1, 2023 16:38
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Definitely, unless you do daytrips to the lakes or maybe Turin. A car might be useful but not 100% necessary. Don't be an idiot like me though and do book the visit to Santa Maria delle Grazie weeeell in advance. Like several weeks at least.
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Apr 1, 2023 21:38
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Ok thanks guys for the tips. I used to go to northern Italy and drive around, it was ok. But this trip I don’t think I have time for car trips. I’m a little bit culture shock but the lack of tall buildings. And the streets are kinda meh. But hey beautiful architecture and history everywhere. The public bus in Rome wasn’t that great and it’s not as orderly as Netherlands and Germany. Oh well minor gripes, except some of the more famous restaurants where it’s full until may. Which is fine because it’s post Covid. But Italy is really like the China or Europe. Lots of culture and history, decent food but sometimes just half assing things all the time. Oh well can’t have ancient history and be precise all the time or else you will just die out Wonton fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Apr 1, 2023 |
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Apr 1, 2023 21:58
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To continue Italy talk: has anyone been around Puglia? We go there for 9 days/nights in early June, with the last 3 days being a wedding way at the bottom in Otranto. For sure we will visit Matera, but besides I’m having a hard time figuring out if there’s any particular AMAZING spot or if Lecce, Bari, and Brindisi are all nice but also essentially equivalent. It doesn’t look like Bari or Brindsi actually use their beachside location in any touristic way, instead stuffing the coast in the cities with big port facilities. Lecce seems to have the nicest historic center, in that it is pedestrianized. Thinking something like land in Bari late afternoon, get a car, drive to Matera, spend 2 nights there, Lecce 2 nights, the Otranto 2 nights. That still leaves 3 nights undecided. Thinking maybe add a third night in Matera and use that day to visit Craco, so then 2 nights in… Bari? Brindisi? Gallipoli? Make Lecce a 3 night stay and do 1 night in a small hotel on the beach somewhere by Gallipoli? We don’t like doing one night stays but if going by car and if it’s only once in a week long trip then it’s tolerable. We speak Italian, don’t care about churches, do like castles and old towns. Locorotondo or Alberobello are probably on the list for a couple hour stop but not sure we’d need to really stay in either.
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Apr 2, 2023 18:56
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I flew into Naples a few years ago and rented a car. I think I was there for 5 days or so and ended up getting two ZTL tickets.
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Apr 2, 2023 19:16
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I've driven through and around Northern Italy several times and I didn't even know they were a thing. Mostly stayed away from bigger cities, though, so maybe I've been lucky. I think driving there is generally fine, it's just that dealing with the big cities can be annoying. Both traffic and parking in Milan was a chore.
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Apr 2, 2023 23:18
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Saladman posted:To continue Italy talk: has anyone been around Puglia? We go there for 9 days/nights in early June, with the last 3 days being a wedding way at the bottom in Otranto. I liked Bari well enough, there isn't that much touristy stuff but it's nice to hang out there for a few nights. The opposite side from the port is pretty walkable. Matera and Alberobello are good day trips. I don't know if it's really necessary to spend two nights in Matera though. If you like castles try Castel del Monte, I didn't make it there as I decided not to rent a car, but it looks nice. Maybe check out Taranto if you're going south.
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Apr 3, 2023 00:43
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DanTheFryingPan posted:I've driven through and around Northern Italy several times and I didn't even know they were a thing. Mostly stayed away from bigger cities, though, so maybe I've been lucky. I think driving there is generally fine, it's just that dealing with the big cities can be annoying. Both traffic and parking in Milan was a chore. If you drove through with foreign plates then I’m not sure they can (or maybe, will bother to) track you down. Italian plates with a rental car, yes. Also ZTLs exist everywhere including in little non touristy villages, but they only have automated camera systems in big cities like Florence.
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Apr 3, 2023 06:50
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Lutherans and Protestants are Christian IS, smashing so many works of arts. Thank goodness the Vatican wasn’t as affected
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Apr 3, 2023 08:33
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