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Mooseontheloose posted:I will also say this, the Democrats (and other leftists not here) have to be careful about assuming Spanish speaking communities will naturally ally with them. Whiteness is an insidious thing and seeing what Trump did in certain Mexican communities and seeing Miami trend Republican means there some movement into bringing them into the white power family. The only thing that has really kept them out of "white" status is the fact that many are undocumented, that they are mostly poor, and that they speak another language at least part of the time. Those aren't going to apply to a lot of the Latinos who are born in the US, and many will consider themselves entitled to the benefits of whiteness, like Italians before them. Just spitballing, and maybe this is really stupid, but to staunch the bleeding Democrats could sometimes, rhetorically, lump them in with whites. Liberals say the phrase "blacks and Latinos" a lot; it's important to remember and talk about the shared goals of those groups, but maybe try throwing in something like "working class whites and Latinos in rural areas need our support" every now and then or something? But then, we don't want to encourage white Latinos to fall into this trap - I dunno, how do you try to mitigate the white supremacy angle without enabling it? (Florida Cubans are already basically 100% white-identifying and Democrats would do well to pretty much ignore them when strategizing about the Latino vote.) Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Apr 3, 2023 |
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Apr 3, 2023 15:48
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Mellow Seas posted:I feel like this is the classic European arrogance of "well of course if we had a diverse population, my society would be cool about it and not close ranks around our dominant ethnicity." Many of your neighboring states have already demonstrated what a load of hooey that was. You have not been challenged by this aspect of human nature the same way the United States has. (Yes, this situation is a direct result of our history of subjugation and slaughter of non-whites, but everybody alive today already had that baked into their cake when they were born.) I'm sorry to butt in to an American conversation, but it might help you to know that Darkcrawler's nation just voted the reactionary, racist party as the second largest party in our parliamentary system in Finland. Turns out there's racists in Europe too!
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Apr 3, 2023 15:48
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Gerund posted:I'll leave some of OP's posts with the white-exclusive parts bolded to help establish that I am, in fact, reading and reacting to the real argument. You bolded some white references because we were talking about Trump voters. Now go back and bold the “exclusive” parts of my argument, or you can always just apologize.
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Apr 3, 2023 16:38
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Mellow Seas posted:(Florida Cubans are already basically 100% white-identifying and Democrats would do well to pretty much ignore them when strategizing about the Latino vote.) Leaving outside how much they "identify as white," one defining point of Cuban-Americans politically pre-Trump is the whole anti-Castro, anti-communist thread. Even the ones who weren't the landowners pre-revolution aren't people who think the last 60 years have been good for Cuba. Another is that having gotten a special bonus for ease of immigration they fall easily into the same "my ancestors came here legally" trap as white people who came over in the days of unrestricted immigration. It should be no surprise that they aren't turned off by the anti-immigrant anti-socialist rhetoric of the right. Apart from Cuban-Americans, last I saw the only Latino group Trump expanded his base in was "People in rural counties near the border who saw the whole wall-building thing as bringing money to their communities."
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Apr 3, 2023 16:40
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Because they genuinely don't think they need to try, and that any nonwhite people not voting for them are clearly unreachable ungratefuls or white-adjacent bro-adjacent loony leftists. (unless they're Florida Cubans, for some reason) I don't agree with this entirely because of my work with Democratic politicans. The sense I always get is they are a bit scared of being called radical (for doing the things they should do!) and that there is a 60s/70s/80s style revolt around the corner. They are still very traumatized from whenever Democrats try to do anything remotely good, Republicans froth, the media uncritically adopts rightwing talking points, no new people come to volunteer, no new voters, lose power. They are trapped in a cycle of caution where that is concerned. And credit to Joe Biden who said, let's do some popular things and run on it, unlike the Obama 2010 cycle of passing something that was good and then running from it. Ultimately, the Democrats understand the material conditions and it least in the house even rank and file are ready to do things but the Senate sucks.
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Apr 3, 2023 16:42
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Mellow Seas posted:Sorry, but this is about the same level of cogent analysis, and about equally useful, as saying poor people are poor because they're lazy or wicked. Tell me, is there something in the water that makes Americans lovely? Something about in their genes? We're being challenged by it on a daily basis and the reaction is very similar to Republicans in some people. In some countries where the rural poor have more power through gerrymandering it has already resulted into a very Republican-like situation. In the countries where they aren't given extra power they are not. The cities where there is more diversity vote less conservative, so it isn't directly tied to the amount of minorities in your near-vicinity either. I don't think Americans are uniquely lovely, I think you give more power to your rural poor, as represented by the political system, and I think the lovely people are more tolerated and more excused in your society. I don't excuse the local people voting for fascists. They are also lovely people. They are a minority through a more logical political system and less tolerance and excusing of their poo poo. If anything it is the Americans who cry that I can't possibly understand America who make the excuse there is something uniquely lovely about their piece-of-poo poo relatives or fellow Americans that means that I can't call them evil. Rappaport posted:I'm sorry to butt in to an American conversation, but it might help you to know that Darkcrawler's nation just voted the reactionary, racist party as the second largest party in our parliamentary system in Finland. Turns out there's racists in Europe too! And percentage of the population is...20%, BTW. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Apr 3, 2023 |
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Apr 3, 2023 16:51
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TheDisreputableDog posted:You bolded some white references because we were talking about Trump voters. Now go back and bold the “exclusive” parts of my argument, or you can always just apologize. Making repeated insistance that its important to talk about Trump's explicitly white poor supporters in exclusion to Trump's poor supporters in general is the exclusivity, and as I said before there is nothing to mention about the specifically white poor on a systemic level since 1973- the 50 years you forwarded- that isn't just the slow fade of white supremacy.
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Apr 3, 2023 16:54
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DarkCrawler posted:And percentage of the population is...20%, BTW. Sure, but a naive approach to the "don't phone granny anymore" tactic would suggest that it should be less, no? And in a parliamentary system, those 20 percent add up! It's not like Cock got 51 percent, either.
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Apr 3, 2023 17:06
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DarkCrawler posted:And percentage of the population is...20%, BTW. 20% sounds about right, that's the share of total population Trump got in 2020 and he only got 1% less in 2016. He also got the least amount of votes between the top 2 each time, or would've if these votes were actually for the President and not a non-binding statement of opinion for one of the relative handful of people who actually get to vote for POTUS. Most democracies as designed have a red carpet laid out for any conservative minority (by design and declaration, it's not a conspiracy) so I wouldn't count yourself as in any better a position than we are, just maybe not as far along the path just yet.
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Apr 3, 2023 17:17
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It depends by what you mean as "the base." It is absolutely mind-boggling to me that this is continually ignored in this thread. Keyser_Soze fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Apr 3, 2023 |
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Apr 3, 2023 17:39
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Gerund posted:Making repeated insistance that its important to talk about Trump's explicitly white poor supporters in exclusion to Trump's poor supporters in general is the exclusivity So responding to someone claiming that white poor people deserve to be poor is actually exclusionary and racist. Absurd.
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Apr 3, 2023 17:49
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Keyser_Soze posted:It is absolutely mind-boggling to me that this is continually ignored in this thread. It's his groundless persecution complex that really speaks to them. The only thing they love more than that is a preposterous shitthatdidn'thappen testimonial about how terrible a person you were before Jesus saved you.
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Apr 3, 2023 17:51
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TheDisreputableDog posted:So responding to someone claiming that white poor people deserve to be poor is actually exclusionary and racist. Hmm... Angry_Ed posted:A lot of the people that support Trump seem have a Victim/Persecution complex, and in Trump they have an avatar. A whiny, self-obsessed wannabe dictator that is never at fault for anything, all of the problems are because of "them". Whether "them" is defined (FBI/Deep State/Minorities/LGBTQ+) or just left nebulous because they somehow know they can't just out and out say it (i.e. using "globalists" to represent the old "jews control everything" conspiracy). And of course they, like Trump, are under constant attack. Having to deal with such horrible things like acknowledging people might have different ideas and feelings of gender identity or that our own understanding of gender identity is changing. No, you are incorrect about what point you were arguing against, and demanding that we must talk about exclusively white poor people is you having your own personal bone to gnaw, like some kind of... disreputable dog.
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Apr 3, 2023 18:02
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Epic High Five posted:20% sounds about right, that's the share of total population Trump got in 2020 and he only got 1% less in 2016. He also got the least amount of votes between the top 2 each time, or would've if these votes were actually for the President and not a non-binding statement of opinion for one of the relative handful of people who actually get to vote for POTUS. Most democracies as designed have a red carpet laid out for any conservative minority (by design and declaration, it's not a conspiracy) so I wouldn't count yourself as in any better a position than we are, just maybe not as far along the path just yet. Percentage of the voting population, not the total population. Total population is one out of ten. Definitely in a much better position than you are. Rappaport posted:Sure, but a naive approach to the "don't phone granny anymore" tactic would suggest that it should be less, no? Why should it be less? Like half the parties refuse entering a government with them outright, that is definitely a point for the "don't call granny" method rather than against it. And even if they get into government there are multiple obstacles for full space fascism unlike in the United States. I have never claimed that anything in my approach is meant to make these people dissappear, that is entirely a fabrication by people who are pissed off about calling their evil relative evil. If you find me a country where at least one out of five voters are not raging racists I would be surprised.
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Apr 3, 2023 18:07
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Keyser_Soze posted:It is absolutely mind-boggling to me that this is continually ignored in this thread.
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Apr 3, 2023 18:17
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DarkCrawler posted:Why should it be less? Like half the parties refuse entering a government with them outright, that is definitely a point for the "don't call granny" method rather than against it. And even if they get into government there are multiple obstacles for full space fascism unlike in the United States. I have never claimed that anything in my approach is meant to make these people dissappear, that is entirely a fabrication by people who are pissed off about calling their evil relative evil. But doesn't your "don't call granny" tactic kind of fly in the face of this? You (general you) would want more voter engagement, if we presume 20 percent are useless then there are those who are not. Right?
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Apr 3, 2023 18:29
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Mellow Seas posted:Yeah I dunno, the influence of evangelism was absolutely dominant in left-of-center rhetoric all through the 00s (Jesus Camp documentary, etc). I think people have largely reached a conclusion that evangelical Christianity is something that comes from rear end in a top hat conservatism, rather the other way around. If you wiped out every Falwell and Joel Osteen and every political activist, fire-and-brimstone reverend, all those devout, pious folks would just start listening to Joe Rogan or Jorp or some other secular right winger. They'll come up with whatever reason to be cruel they have to; Christianity is just a convenient reason.
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Apr 3, 2023 18:59
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Rappaport posted:But doesn't your "don't call granny" tactic kind of fly in the face of this? You (general you) would want more voter engagement, if we presume 20 percent are useless then there are those who are not. Right? I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here.
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Apr 3, 2023 19:01
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Mellow Seas posted:If you wiped out every Falwell and Joel Osteen and every political activist, fire-and-brimstone reverend, all those devout, pious folks would just start listening to Joe Rogan or Jorp or some other secular right winger. If someone is objecting to something for an ostensibly religious reason, they almost always have secular reasons to oppose that thing as well. Like when it came to same-sex marriage, Evangelical conservatives generally portrayed homosexuals as disgusting, mentally ill, pedophiles, etc., it was a case of invoking theology to justify one's prejudice. One can similarly find "pro-life" atheists who are concerned that easy access to abortion makes women "irresponsible." When it came to slavery, there were secular and religious arguments deployed for and against it. An Abolitionist could be just as fundamentalist in his or her theology as the most conservative Southern preacher. But the religious on both sides didn't treat slavery as some abstract theological question; they invoked the Bible to buttress secular arguments as to slavery's humaneness or inhumanity, as to whether black people are "naturally" fit for enslavement (e.g. a pro-slavery person could claim "if we look at the pagan lifestyles of the African we see confirmed the Curse of Ham"), and so on. Enver Zogha fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Apr 3, 2023 |
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Apr 3, 2023 19:03
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Religion was a post-hoc justification for slavery once the war started, IIRC. Christians actually started setting up education programs for blacks that didn't exist before because they were playing up rhetoric about taking care of black folks as a christian burden.
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Apr 3, 2023 19:08
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A big reason evangelicals have lost a lot of political relevance in the last 10 years is because they've driven out everyone in their movement who isn't far right wing. They're pretty far from the evangelical movement of the 60's and 70's which had it's own flavor of leftism. Hell, they're a ghost of what they were in the 90's and early 2000's when they were the face of mainstream Republicans and had Bush in the office. Trump is both their guy at this moment because he is in line for what they want to vote for and anyone who would vote for anything else has been dropped by the evangelicals.
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Apr 3, 2023 19:11
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https://twitter.com/RightWingWatch/status/1642957276339208194?s=20 This is the level of rhetoric now for so many right wing commentators it seems unlikely they'd push back against guys like this stooge. I really wish these freaks would actually be punished for this kind of poo poo, it isn't like this is the first time this guy has likely said something like this.
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Apr 3, 2023 19:36
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TheDisreputableDog posted:I don’t agree that poor people are responsible for their own poverty, op. Voting against your own interests in order to gently caress over some minorities seems self inflicted to me.
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Apr 3, 2023 19:46
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Jaxyon posted:Religion was a post-hoc justification for slavery once the war started, IIRC. You don't. Southern Christians, Baptists in particular but not exclusively, were preaching about slavery being a positive good well before the war started. And more broadly you can go back well into the eighteenth century and earlier to hear Christianity cited as the reason why enslaving Africans is better than letting them remain free, but pagan. As to education programs, those emphatically were not a thing in the ante-bellum South, and legally could not be even if there had been motivation to set them up. Anti-literacy laws were rife across the region, with South Carolina characteristically leading the way in 1739. Sure, there were vague platitudes offered from time to time about how Christian benevolence was why the planters treated their slaves so well, but actual education was not a thing, unless you count very, very basic training so they could work the fields more efficiently. And even that's dicey, as the anti-Capitalist slant of the old South meant many ignored/refused to employ modern agricultural methods as who needs money-grubbing Yankee efficiencies when you can just throw more slaves at a problem.
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Apr 3, 2023 20:02
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sgbyou posted:Voting against your own interests in order to gently caress over some minorities seems self inflicted to me. Like people should not wear themselves finding sympathy for groups who hate them, but we live in a very hosed system where culture wars are invented and minorities turned into boogeymen to prevent class solidarity.
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Apr 3, 2023 20:16
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Slate has a really good interview with Senator Brian Schatz about housing policy and how so many Americans cities (generally run by Democrats) didn't take any action, or took negative action, on increasing the housing supply for decades until it was too late. He also gets pretty deep into the details on the limited power the federal government has, but how progressive politicians need to start pushing housing as a "progressive value" and try to convince a lot of their voters who are progressive on every issue, but just don't want a lot of people living near their house or construction. quote:Others are just living in the contradiction that they are nominally liberal on all the things—climate and immigration and health care and LGBTQ rights and all the good stuff, but they also have a nice home and do not want other people to live next to them. And that is not a coherent political philosophy. That’s just a person thinking they’re liberal but they are not liberal about a basic question, which is: “Do I want a nurse or a firefighter or a sanitation worker or a restaurant worker or an elderly individual or a disabled individual or a student to live near me?” And if the answer is “Well, sure, but only if they can afford this 1-acre lot,” then you’re not that progressive. He also gets into the various reasons that housing is never a major issue in a Presidential campaign. The whole interview is very good and hard to summarize because it hits so many different areas, but I've bolded all the questions so you can easily read it. quote:The Democratic Senator Who Says Liberals Have Lost Their Way on Housing Full Interview: quote:Henry Grabar: You got this $85 million grant program put into the appropriations bill in December, which is for “the identification and removal of barriers to affordable housing production and preservation.” Is this Congress’s first yes-in-my-backyard provision? https://slate.com/business/2023/04/brian-schatz-senate-housing-yimby.html
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Apr 3, 2023 20:36
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This Is the Zodiac posted:Trump was one of the least-religious US presidents of modern times. He openly admitted to not knowing much about the Bible and before being elected he was never religious in his public life, in stark contrast to George W. Bush and even Obama. It's just that he was extremely adept at code-switching to speak the language of evangelicals and bring them into his flock of rear end in a top hat conservatives. Haven't you heard people, primarily old white people, who call Trump "a great president, but not presidential"? That's what they're talking about. I don't think it's accurate to say Trump was at all adept at code switching. He didn't adeptly adopt Christian language. Recall "Two Corinthians". What he is good at is bullying, and conservative Evangelicalism is all about using the Bible to bully people. Trump will happily bully anyone if he thinks it will get him applause from the rest of the crowd. That's what the olds mean with the "not presidential" thing.
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Apr 3, 2023 21:24
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Yeah evangelicals like him because he shits on minority groups.
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Apr 3, 2023 21:25
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PeterWeller posted:I don't think it's accurate to say Trump was at all adept at code switching. He didn't adeptly adopt Christian language. Recall "Two Corinthians". If the people I've met who use Christianity as a bludgeon are any indication of the sub-genre as a whole, they probably don't see anything wrong with someone saying "Two Corinthians" because they themselves have never read the book. The bible is something you point at to win an argument, arguing about the scripture itself is something for nerds. The vast majority of the New Testament would excoriate them for being essentially a modern day Pharesee, as their implicit understanding of the text is based on paternalistic adherence to perceived tradition rather than anything that the book actually says. Trump happily adopting that "speak down to the lesser through god's word" thing is Evangelism as it currently exists. Like, as adept as one could be using that lexicon. I think it's important to realize that the right in this country isn't speaking about the content of the bible when they reference it and their values, they're speaking about the power it gives them over people who they perceive as not them.
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Apr 3, 2023 21:44
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Evangelicals generally know well enough to say, "second Corinthians," is my point.
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Apr 3, 2023 21:50
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sgbyou posted:Voting against your own interests in order to gently caress over some minorities seems self inflicted to me. It's not that simple though. It's not like they're being presented with honest and objective facts and they're just deciding that they'd rather gently caress over minorities instead of have a better life. The problem is that they are being told over and over again that the minorities are the reason why they don't have a better life. They're being told that voting to gently caress over minorities IS voting in their own interests.
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Apr 3, 2023 22:20
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One two Corinthians kneel before you That's what I said now
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Apr 3, 2023 22:24
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PeterWeller posted:Evangelicals generally know well enough to say, "second Corinthians," is my point. To add onto this: specific flavors of (Protestant) Christianity that have been infected with an evangelical strain, including the flavor of one Betsy DeVos (Christian Reformed), are Calvinist in nature, where biblical scholarship is extremely valued. Knowing the Bible is, in fact, valued in a lot of flavors of Protestantism more broadly, because it was a major differentiator from Catholicism at the time of the Reformation.
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Apr 4, 2023 00:03
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bloodysabbath posted:You know they say that all men are created equal, but you look at me and you look at Sleepy Joe and you can see that statement is not true. See, normally if you go one on one with another candidate, you got a 50/50 chance of winning. But I'm a genetic freak and I'm not normal! So you got a 25%, AT BEST, at beat me. Then you add little Ron DeSanctimonious to the mix, your chances of winning drastic go down. See the 3 way in 2024, you got a 33 1/3 chance of winning, but I, I got a 66 and 2/3 chance of winning, because little Ronnie KNOWS he can't beat me and he's not even gonna try! This is from a couple days ago but I just want to know I had a hearty laugh at this
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Apr 4, 2023 00:08
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Oxyclean posted:This is sort of where I'm at, but people tend to vote against their own interests because they are often victims of propaganda. Democrats and liberals have often failed to make convincing cases for rural america, or attitudes such as treating certain areas as lost causes might just just reinforce preconceptions. At the same time, I do share the frustration of what feels like people still voting for the worse of two options despite everything else. This presupposes the existence of a huge population voting against their class interests. Most people's class interests more or less align with labor / worker / retired worker. By and large the Republicans act in the interests of capital and the Democrats act in the interests of the poor (who do already vote for them by a 2:1 margin). If you want workers to stop voting cultural issues over economic issues there has to exist a party supporting their class interests (more progressive taxation, less means tested benefits, more universal benefits) in the first place. If the economic argument is usually a tug of war between taxes you won't have to pay and means tested benefits you won't qualify for, it's very personally cheap to vote on cultural issues.
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Apr 4, 2023 01:22
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PeterWeller posted:Evangelicals generally know well enough to say, "second Corinthians," is my point. Ehh, this isn't a hard and fast rule. Trump doesn't know anything about it, and it may be standard practice among American Evangelicals to use "second Corinthians," but I view it as something like a regional term like coke/soda/pop. I've heard it as "two Corinthians" plenty of times in churches, so nothing about his saying it sounded off to me.
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Apr 4, 2023 02:17
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is that like "Corinthian Leather?" I'm sure like 1% of typical mega church fundie chuds knows what the hell it is. They love Dumb Donnie because he OWNS THE "LIBS" and "says it like it is!"
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Apr 4, 2023 02:27
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My favorite wild fact about white evangelicals and Trump is that Trump had a higher approval rating with white evangelicals in 2020 that George W. Bush did after 9/11. Trump really connects to the most religious conservatives in a way that nobody else does. He even got the endorsements from Jerry Falwell and Franklin Graham over all the other candidates in 2016. It really seems to back up the sociology paper that determined that many people who identify as evangelical Christians do so as a cultural signifier rather than a specific set of Christian beliefs and practices.
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Apr 4, 2023 02:33
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I can't find it now, but I remember a rather passionate opinion written by some evangelical pastor about how Trump was everything wrong with America and no right-minded, to them, religious person should vote for him. And then it turned out...!DarkCrawler posted:I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. You're right, that was an awful post, I'm sorry. I suppose what I meant was that if roughly 40 percent of Finland votes for reactionary right-wing nonsense, what hope does America have? Of course you are correct that the US has fewer checks and balances, as it were, so their elections carry more weight.
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Apr 4, 2023 02:59
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I apologize if this isn't the right thread, but are there any polls out there tracking the Wisconsin Supreme Court election? How worried should we be?
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Apr 4, 2023 02:59
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