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jeeves posted:View screens remind me of Total Recall, and now they had such a cool realistic portrayal of a near future except for the fact no one loving wants to FaceTime/Skype regularly. Reading this post made me realise: George Orwell predicted Zoom calls.
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Apr 2, 2023 08:36
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jeeves posted:(I also always laff at how Total Recall was one of the last big films to have screens everywhere before flatscreens/LCDs. Really check out the loving volume of those screens especially on the subways or peoples desks!) I think my favorite treatment of that whole issue is Brazil(1985), where modernization has led to ever smaller sized screens....but nobody can really even see the screens because they're so small so they all use very large magnifying glasses to watch them, completely defeating the purpose of having the smaller screen.
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Apr 3, 2023 16:29
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Prurient Squid posted:Reading this post made me realise: George Orwell predicted Zoom calls. I'm pretty sure that the concept of live video conference predated Orwell. He did absolutely predict this though: https://www.tonal.com/
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Apr 3, 2023 20:02
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Sash! posted:I'm pretty sure that the concept of live video conference predated Orwell. Indeed! E. M. Forster (Room with a View, etc) wrote a short story “The Machine Stops” in 1909 in which future-humanity inhabits the titular Machine, a colossal series of computerized, subterranean apartment complexes; all their material needs are seen to by the Machine, video-chat is the primary social activity, and only weirdoes ever go outside. As you could probably guess from the title, it doesn’t end well.
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Apr 3, 2023 20:27
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I'm in The Final Chapter, three or four to go, and yeah they shoulda done better by Kai Winn and Dukat. I'm kind of a Winn apologist, I think that while she's ambitious as gently caress she's also sincere in her faith (as evidenced by her about face on Sisko when he found the hidden city) and is sincere in her love for Bajor and the Bajoran people and was even horrified by Dukat's satanism - until she had to choose between her power and her faith. Not to say she's not a villain and antagonist the whole time, and a great one, but I don't think she's full on evil until after she decides to throw in with the pah-wraiths. I get the themes behind chosing ambition over belief, but I think it was a bit too abrupt after Kira was like "all you have to do is give up being kai" and she's all "HAIL SATAN MFS" Cult leader Dukat is just dumb and I'd rather they just killed him off at the same time as Ziyal. Pah-wraiths is also a stupid term.
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Apr 3, 2023 21:37
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It's been a long time since I've watched the whole thing in a row so I may be misremembering details, but I could buy the Winn thing because they'd set it up that she was getting increasingly frustrated that the Prophets wouldn't talk to her but were all chatty with Sisko. She saw herself as Bajor's representative to the Prophets since she'd been elected to that position but they refused to acknowledge her, so she wasn't just refusing to give up power but was rebelling against gods she felt had abandoned her. Yes it was all rushed and felt too quick a turn, but that's the second half of season 7 in a nutshell. Agreed on the Dukat thing though, that arc for him never worked for me. I wouldn't have wanted to see him killed, but I'd have rather they had him disappear into a Starfleet institution for most of the season after the Ziyal thing and then pop back up in the final arc with some grand scorched earth plan. I just can't picture a Cardassian as nationalistic as Dukat surgically turning himself into a Bajoran, that would be like Hitler getting circumcised.
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Apr 3, 2023 21:50
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I'm not sure I totally agree with the 'Winn's faith was real' take, but I completely agree that Dukat surgically altering himself to look Bajoran was pretty ridiculous. DS9's finale was cluttered with the pah-wraith stuff that didn't really go anywhere of much importance. However, the Damar arc was fantastic. F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Apr 3, 2023 |
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Apr 3, 2023 21:52
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Knormal posted:It's been a long time since I've watched the whole thing in a row so I may be misremembering details, but I could buy the Winn thing because they'd set it up that she was getting increasingly frustrated that the Prophets wouldn't talk to her but were all chatty with Sisko. She saw herself as Bajor's representative to the Prophets since she'd been elected to that position but they refused to acknowledge her, so she wasn't just refusing to give up power but was rebelling against gods she felt had abandoned her. Yes it was all rushed and felt too quick a turn, but that's the second half of season 7 in a nutshell. Oh that was for sure a big issue, Dukat even raises it, she raises it herself in dialog, but she's in Job mode until that conversation with Kira.
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Apr 3, 2023 21:58
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Winn is 100% absolutely not sincere and never has been at all. She's Joel Osteen but in Space.
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Apr 3, 2023 22:03
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Remember when she was both Kai and Prime Minister and nearly caused a civil war to break out over soil reclaimators? She also hated Kira because not only did the Prophets talk to her through the orb experiences, she got picked by them to fight pah wraith Jake and Winn stepped in to cancel the DBZ battle and preventing a possible golden age for Bajor all because she wanted to keep her job.
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Apr 3, 2023 23:14
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Yeah I have to disagree on Winn having true faith, it's an issue near to my heart and it really resonated on the most recent rewatch -- she's an extremely on-point analog of mainstream American Evangelical leadership, even more accurate now than when it first aired. There are moments where they had to accelerate certain character turns due to the logistics of not always having the actor around and having to make sure they hit certain beats within an hour, such is the nature of '90s TV. But on the whole I think what they did with her was such a great portrayal of someone who was in it for the wrong reasons and revealed their true nature during an inflection point.
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Apr 3, 2023 23:47
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I could see an argument for her being an Pope-like figure, confusing power for piety, but modern Evangelical? not at all. There's nothing she does that maps uniquely onto fundamentalist Christian dominionism, they actually brought in the fake Emissary when they wanted to explore those themes. She's not a preacher, she's not charismatic, she's not advocating for a return to fundamental beliefs, she's not secretly enriching herself, she's unconcerned about cultural issues. The political-religious thing doesn't work because Bajor doesn't have separation of church and state, there aren't a majority of Bajorans who don't believe in the prophets, there is an extreme minority that doesn't. So she's not forcing her beliefs on anyone. So in what way is she like modern Evangelical Christianity?
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Apr 4, 2023 00:15
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zoux posted:I could see an argument for her being an Pope-like figure, confusing power for piety, but modern Evangelical? not at all. There's nothing she does that maps uniquely onto fundamentalist Christian dominionism, they actually brought in the fake Emissary when they wanted to explore those themes. She's not a preacher, she's not charismatic, she's not advocating for a return to fundamental beliefs, she's not secretly enriching herself, she's unconcerned about cultural issues. The political-religious thing doesn't work because Bajor doesn't have separation of church and state, there aren't a majority of Bajorans who don't believe in the prophets, there is an extreme minority that doesn't. So she's not forcing her beliefs on anyone. So in what way is she like modern Evangelical Christianity? I broadly agree with you with the exception of the season 1 episode where she tries her best to concern-troll Keiko’s school out of existence. That’s purestrain evangelical bullshit
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Apr 4, 2023 00:17
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skasion posted:I broadly agree with you with the exception of the season 1 episode where she tries her best to concern-troll Keiko’s school out of existence. That’s purestrain evangelical bullshit That's fair, and it's definitely meant to mirror the intelligent design arguments of the time To be clear, I also think like the Borgia and Medici popes were sincere in their faith, in that they thought the bible was true and christ was the son of god and so on. But they were a bunch of power-obsessed bastards and I think Kai Winn is more like that than Billy Graham or Jerry Falwell zoux fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Apr 4, 2023 |
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Apr 4, 2023 00:21
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I'm not sure I totally agree with the 'Winn's faith was real' take, but I completely agree that Dukat surgically altering himself to look Bajoran was pretty ridiculous. DS9's finale was cluttered with the pah-wraith stuff that didn't really go anywhere of much importance. The important thing to know is this: Demons are real and you should definitely not ally with and/or bang them.
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Apr 4, 2023 03:50
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Why didn’t you tell me this sooner?
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Apr 4, 2023 04:13
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Yestermoment posted:The important thing to know is this: Demons are real and you should definitely not ally with and/or bang them. I'm afraid this goes against everything Shin Megami Tensei has taught me
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Apr 4, 2023 04:20
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Look, if i learned anything from star trek it's that aliens setting themselves up as gods are the bad guys, and aliens that imprison a minority with a different color are also the bad guys, and that pop culture Satan lives at the galactic core and is a cool, if poorly animated, guy. So i think the 'Pah-Wraiths' are actually gonna turn out to be totally cool and chill in act 3.
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Apr 4, 2023 04:22
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Yestermoment posted:The important thing to know is this: Demons are real and you should definitely not ally with and/or bang them. In the First Age, In the first battle, When the shadows first lengthened, One stood. He chose the Path of Perpetual Torment. In His ravenous hatred He found no peace. And with boiling blood He scoured the fire caves, seeking vengeance against the Pah-Wraiths who had wronged Him. And those that tasted the bite of His blade named Him... The Sisko Technowolf fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Apr 4, 2023 |
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Apr 4, 2023 04:23
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skasion posted:I broadly agree with you with the exception of the season 1 episode where she tries her best to concern-troll Keiko’s school out of existence. That’s purestrain evangelical bullshit That episode feels weird considering the direction the show ended up going with the Prophets. Winn's a jerk for insisting that the wormhole is the Celestial Temple and that kids should be taught Bajoran religion. Also, the Prophets are the true gods of Bajor and Winn's a jerk for not letting Sisko sacrifice his son to them.
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Apr 4, 2023 05:21
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I think the main parallel between Winn's faith and American evangelical Christianity is that the latter is the form of religious bullshit Americans are most familiar with. I think she's actually written quite well in a way where you could probably see the same patterns on any overbearing politically-oriented efforts to use faith as a reason to seize power.
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Apr 4, 2023 05:34
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Winn is more analogous to American politicians. Her faith is a sham in all the ways that matter. Her reaction to Siskos accomplishments is just her coming to the realization his position is now too cemented for her to be overtly hostile towards the idea of him being a religious figure.
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Apr 4, 2023 11:54
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The thing is, the analogy doesn't quite work when you consider that, unlike American Christianity, Bajoran religion was ruthlessly suppressed until fairly recently, and the Bajorans wanting their traditional beliefs recognised by the newest aliens to move in is closer to the politics surrounding indigenous religions than it is to conflicts over secularism in western society.
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Apr 4, 2023 12:18
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I think I'm just seeing it on more of a personal character level than an exact allegory for the political situation, which is definitely different. Winn was "faithful" to the Prophets as long as it also meant she could have power. When faced with a situation where being truly faithful would've meant giving up some of her power, she got in bed (literally) with someone who embodied everything she claimed to be against. It was really all about her all along, even if she didn't fully realize it. The Prophets were a useful mascot for what she already wanted to do anyway. (The metaphor doesn't completely work because the Prophets did pretty much always act in Bajor's best interests like a tribal deity, but you can only go so far with this stuff I guess.)
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Apr 4, 2023 13:14
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Also the Bajoran religion has the benefit of being, you know, actually true. At least their gods anyway, I don't know of a single doctrine of that religion besides "Trust the Prophets" and "The Prophets have a plan" and "rigid caste system"
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Apr 4, 2023 14:10
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zoux posted:Also the Bajoran religion has the benefit of being, you know, actually true. At least their gods anyway, I don't know of a single doctrine of that religion besides "Trust the Prophets" and "The Prophets have a plan" and "rigid caste system" 
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Apr 4, 2023 15:11
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The final ten episodes of DS9 can be vastly improved by just editing out the Dukat stuff.
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Apr 4, 2023 15:27
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jeeves posted:The final ten episodes of DS9 can be vastly improved by just editing out the Dukat stuff. It was certainly a bold dramatic choice to have Sisko go out by flinging himself into a volcano, but i was a little confused as to his motive
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Apr 4, 2023 15:30
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zoux posted:Also the Bajoran religion has the benefit of being, you know, actually true. At least their gods anyway, I don't know of a single doctrine of that religion besides "Trust the Prophets" and "The Prophets have a plan" and "rigid caste system" Ear chains are very important
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Apr 4, 2023 16:25
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Oh and everyone's pah is strong.
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Apr 4, 2023 16:27
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I want to see some future hybrid race where all the Trek aliens came together as one species with a massive crenellated forehead, gigantic coralesque ears, a nose like a folded towel, and some kind of hellish pink-blue-green vitiligo
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Apr 4, 2023 16:31
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Brawnfire posted:I want to see some future hybrid race where all the Trek aliens came together as one species with a massive crenellated forehead, gigantic coralesque ears, a nose like a folded towel, and some kind of hellish pink-blue-green vitiligo This is what those ultra wise Lovecraftian entities that temporarily drove Spock nuts looked like
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Apr 4, 2023 16:33
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Brawnfire posted:I want to see some future hybrid race where all the Trek aliens came together as one species with a massive crenellated forehead, gigantic coralesque ears, a nose like a folded towel, and some kind of hellish pink-blue-green vitiligo Isn't that sort of what the lead character in Prodigy is?
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Apr 4, 2023 16:42
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Eighties ZomCom posted:Isn't that sort of what the lead character in Prodigy is? Oh, is that his deal? I'm still behind on that, I got up to where it took a break. That explains his gross color, but he's got like no forehead!
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Apr 4, 2023 16:45
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Foreheads are everything in the Trek universe!
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Apr 4, 2023 16:45
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Do you think other species call us smoothheads
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Apr 4, 2023 16:49
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But if you have every forehead, they even out to no forehead!
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Apr 4, 2023 16:50
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Well then I'll leave it to you to watch the rest of it then 
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Apr 4, 2023 16:51
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zoux posted:Do you think other species call us smoothheads I think they all have their own targets of derision. Klingons and Cardassians would definitely call us smooth-heads, but Cardassians would also call us skinny-necks or something akin. We know we're "Pinkskins" to Andorians, and I imagine Orions bandy that about too. Vulcans, Romulans call us "round-ear" and Ferengi a word that means "grub-like ears" in their language. Bolians call us "weak-poopers"
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Apr 4, 2023 16:54
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I always hated “Pinkskin” because it is one of the most Hollywood insults for an alien to have imaginable because uhhhh have you see most of the planet? Hollywood hasn’t
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Apr 4, 2023 17:24
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