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JohnKilltrane posted:Also 100 Killtrane Bucks to whoever comes up with the best explanation for why a swarm of insects prevents accurately targeting the units underneath while still allowing the units underneath - friend or foe - to accurately target anything outside. Well obviously if you're in the cloud you can just swat the bugs out of the way for a second so you can get a clear shot.
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Apr 5, 2023 14:34
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A little disappointed by how simplistic the Zerg vs Zerg 'meta' game seems to be. I would think that one faction vs itself would be the ultimate in versatility and subtle strategy since both players have access to all the same tools.ilmucche posted:Every now and then this pops into my head. The defiler spotlight of course brought it up again Slightly embarassed by how hard I laughed at that.
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Apr 5, 2023 15:33
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ZvZ is loving hilarious and it rules to watch
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Apr 5, 2023 15:48
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JustJeff88 posted:A little disappointed by how simplistic the Zerg vs Zerg 'meta' game seems to be. I would think that one faction vs itself would be the ultimate in versatility and subtle strategy since both players have access to all the same tools. Brood War's balance isn't as perfect as it's often touted to be. Mutalisks are overpowered, just within the context of Zerg units rather than tipping the balance between factions. In a mirror match, that kind of intra-faction balance matters, so ZvZ becomes about who has the best control over their stack of mutalisks. It's probably not a coincidence that when Brood War was made all three factions were given a new unit that counters flying units. The problem is that Starcraft largely stumbled into having such complex counterplay harmonies across all of their mechanics. So if they try to change mutas to be less dominant, or make any of the never-used units more viable competitively, they risk breaking it.
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Apr 5, 2023 16:10
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JustJeff88 posted:A little disappointed by how simplistic the Zerg vs Zerg 'meta' game seems to be. I would think that one faction vs itself would be the ultimate in versatility and subtle strategy since both players have access to all the same tools. In addition to what Tenebrais said, mirror matchups also have the least variables, meaning they're the easiest matchups to "solve." This is true of all three: TvT, ZvZ, and PvP are all pretty straightforward and don't tend to see a lot of variety. Instead the matches tend to be very technical and are determined almost entirely by mechanical control and tactical positioning. It's particularly true of ZvZ because not only are Mutas crazy strong, Zerg also doesn't really have a great solution to them. Hydras just aren't really able to hold their own vs Mutas the way Marines and Dragoons sometimes can. So because of that, Zerg's best response to Mutas is more Mutas. Tenebrais posted:It's probably not a coincidence that when Brood War was made all three factions were given a new unit that counters flying units. For sure. In fact, I think those Brood War units you mentioned are a big part of this. When SC1 first came out, Mutalisks were absolutely dominant. Nothing could stand up to them. So with Brood War they introduced some units to help counter that. But as players became more proficient at the game, they discovered that while these new units were good counters to Mutas, things like Irradiate and Psi Storm were even better - and, of course, had many more applications outside of just killing Mutas. So the end result is these new units that are extremely niche because they were a bit premature in being introduced. Although, funnily enough, whole the Protoss Muta killer is pretty rarely used to take down Mutas, it is nonetheless a pretty common unit in PvZ, just for other reasons.
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Apr 5, 2023 18:18
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JohnKilltrane posted:So the end result is these new units that are extremely niche because they were a bit premature in being introduced. I never thought about it like that, that the balancing changes came too soon in the process. I mean even now with what little I know of Starcraft 1 and watching ASL, the meta appears to be changing so much, I couldn't imagine how you could properly introduce new units into the mix. Speaking of which, through either mods or just thought experiments, have people tried to make new units to help balance things out? For high level play, it seems like a chunk of each race is never or almost never used. Who knows if a new unit would even be useful at that level of play?
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Apr 5, 2023 18:53
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It's my understanding that SC1 is just not really moddable in that manner. I think it's not possible or at least mega difficult for someone to load new sprites into the game. It is much more of a thing in SC2, but I don't think anyone really dabbles in trying to rebalance the core game. Rather, Blizzard themselves made and discarded a lot of unit concepts when trying to balance the game over the years. A lot of the balancing in both games actually comes from map creation. Map design has a *huge* impact on game balance. Things like distance between bases, placement of choke points, and number of expansions can have a huge influence on how a matchup goes. Tarezax fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Apr 5, 2023 |
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Apr 5, 2023 19:10
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Tarezax posted:It's my understanding that SC1 is just not really moddable in that manner. I think it's not possible or at least mega difficult for someone to load new sprites into the game. Difficult, but not impossible. The UEDAIP mod isn't really interested in competitive balance (half-hearted attempts are made, but when you're also adding in a fourth playable faction...). It's a mod that's all about the campaigns, and making them more interesting. It's a very difficult mod, to be sure, but its main focus is on improved AI. AI players will start with reduced map control and expand out, they will rebuild their bases, and get sneaky in ways even the modmaker didn't see coming. There's also the host of balance changes the mod makes to the original and Brood War campaigns (Vanilla/Brood War campaigns use separate sets of balance changes), makes use of actual Bank Data to allow certain actions affect future maps, and AI allies that are both genuinely helpful, but also not overpowered enough to win the map for you. (There is one instance of what seems to be Bank Data late in the Brood War campaigns, but it is a LIE, and if Killtrane doesn't point it out when it happens, I will gleefully expose Blizzard's shenanigans.)
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Apr 5, 2023 20:34
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JohnKilltrane posted:Also 100 Killtrane Bucks to whoever comes up with the best explanation for why a swarm of insects prevents accurately targeting the units underneath while still allowing the units underneath - friend or foe - to accurately target anything outside. You know how when you spin around to make yourself dizzy, but if you focus on one spot you won't? Dark Swarm works in a similar manner. There's enough bugs flying around that, on the outside, you just see a whole cloud of bugs and go "uuuuuhhhhhh, I think there's something in there? I dunno, I'll just take a couple potshots and hope for the best" but if you are on the inside all you have to do is focus really hard on a spot and the bugs will be moving around often enough that you can see juuuuuust enough to get a positive ID on something you want to shoot
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Apr 5, 2023 21:03
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Tenebrais posted:It's probably not a coincidence that when Brood War was made all three factions were given a new unit that counters flying units. I take it, then, that Devourers are not an effective option in Zerg vs Zerg?
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Apr 5, 2023 23:45
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It’s like how a one-way mirror works; it’s really dark inside the cloud and really bright outside, so if you’re outside you just see the shiny bugs instead of the hydras hiding in the darkness, but if you’re inside, you can still see the brightly-lit stuff outside.
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Apr 6, 2023 00:30
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JustJeff88 posted:I take it, then, that Devourers are not an effective option in Zerg vs Zerg? In that time you fell behind on Mutalisk/Ling production GG
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Apr 6, 2023 00:38
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JustJeff88 posted:I take it, then, that Devourers are not an effective option in Zerg vs Zerg? But unfortunately, they have the same problem as Defilers, in that they're so drat high on the tech tree that the Zerg vs Zerg game is usually decided before then. And since both Defilers and Devourers are basically equal on the tech tree, if the game somehow drags on to Hive + extra building level, you're definitely opting to build Defilers instead as the "I win ZvZ" button.
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Apr 6, 2023 02:28
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You guys are overthinking dark swarm. It's simple: Anyone standing in the middle of the swarm clearly isn't bugged by it. FoolyCharged fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Apr 6, 2023 |
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Apr 6, 2023 04:22
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Whereas everyone outside is buggered.
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Apr 6, 2023 12:36
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are there any matchups that use hydras/lurkers? i seem recall that being a thing at some point
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Apr 6, 2023 12:38
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redleader posted:are there any matchups that use hydras/lurkers? i seem recall that being a thing at some point In PvZ they are also a big thing as hydras in high numbers are good at killing Zealots and Dragoons, and Lurkers are excellent at killing Zealots. Everything then depends on how good the Protoss player is with their storms. Defilers aren't really needed for Dark Swarm, instead they can really weaken the Protoss army using plague.
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Apr 6, 2023 13:44
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redleader posted:are there any matchups that use hydras/lurkers? i seem recall that being a thing at some point It's pretty rare in traditional play. You might see it in TvZ as a push to end the game early, but that's about it. It's funny because the combo is actually quite strong but standard Zerg play is just so gas heavy that it becomes untenable. Zergling/Lurker is a considerably weaker pairing, but because it saves on gas it allows Zerg to reach Hive tech quickly, getting out those all-important Defilers and Ultras. So what you pair your Lurkers with really comes down to the flow of the game: do you delay Hive tech and push for domination with Hydras, or do you use Zerglings so you can get your high tech units out sooner? Players usually seem to opt for the latter. That being said, I think as Mech becomes more popular in TvZ we'll be seeing more Hydras.
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Apr 6, 2023 14:05
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DTurtle posted:It has recently become a thing in TvZ again. The hydras are very good at killing any science vessels that try to float in and irradiate Defilers and other things. And protected by Dark Swarm they can quickly push back tanks or marines. Yeah this, Hydra/Lurker/Defiler is catching on in ZvT because you can just spam Plague and then one shot Terran infantry with range hydras while the Lurkers act as an anchor and prevent infantry from just diving on your stuff, especially under Dark Swarm which also helps when the Terran starts adding tanks. Spider Mines and Defense Matrix Firebats can be pretty brutal against Dark Swarm though.
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Apr 6, 2023 15:23
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Chillgamesh posted:Yeah this, Hydra/Lurker/Defiler is catching on in ZvT because you can just spam Plague and then one shot Terran infantry with range hydras while the Lurkers act as an anchor and prevent infantry from just diving on your stuff, especially under Dark Swarm which also helps when the Terran starts adding tanks. Spider Mines and Defense Matrix Firebats can be pretty brutal against Dark Swarm though. Would like to add that I am literally watching a game from the current ASL where herO went for a hydra push on ssak going 1/1/1. Apparently 1/1/1 builds are coming back into vogue for Terran.
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Apr 7, 2023 10:42
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Addendum to the discussion of Dark Swarm. The Swarm is acting as a shield and as a barrier. It is a shield to those inside, a barrier to those outside. The units inside can see through the shield- they have a mirror, camera, or other device allowing this- while it also provides them protection. It is a barrier between them and the units outside the swarm, who have trouble targeting units inside because of the barrier. But to those inside, there is no barrier. Just a shield. I hope you understand. It is the nature of a thing that matters here, not its Swarm. I mean form. 
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Apr 7, 2023 13:54
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The bugs on the inside layer of the dark swarm change their colors, acting sort of like pixels on a TV to create an image of units outside the swarm.
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Apr 7, 2023 14:08
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It is really cool to see the spellcasting units appreciated, discussed and dissected here; as a kid, I built most of them once and was like "wtf they don't even have an attack? What do they do if you're out of mana? Rather spend this on more tanks/guardians/protoss unit spoilers" and never gave them a chance. My RTS experience basically went CnC -> SC1 -> WC3 and then I realized I am not actually an RTS player, but I wonder if after playing a lot of DotA, I'd be much, much better nowadays at handling SC1's spellcasters...
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Apr 7, 2023 15:56
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I could never wrap my head around the idea of having micro-managed individual spell-casting units. I did not then nor today can I understand how one is expected to choose one unit and cast a spell in a precise spot when dozens of other units are slaughtering each other. I had a hard enough time controlling one white or black wizard in King Arthur's World (look it up)
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Apr 7, 2023 16:37
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Hey, I used to play SC:Brood War a lot over 10 years ago. I followed the pro-scene very closely. I even used to wake up very very early in the morning to watch the finals of the Korean Starleagues during the times of Jaedong, Flash and others. I remember a lot of progames still, but I haven't kept up with the more recent SC1 leagues. I got to C+ on ICCUP playing as Zerg. (ICCUP was an alternative battlenet with better maps and lattency run by non-korean fans). Most non-koreans who were SC1:BW fans at that time used to play there. Koreans used to play on Fish (another alternative battlenet). This thread is really great to me because OP is reminding us of the single player content, which was great, and is updating my very old knowledge about the pro strategies. Thanks a lot, OP Great thread,
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Apr 7, 2023 20:51
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JustJeff88 posted:I could never wrap my head around the idea of having micro-managed individual spell-casting units. I did not then nor today can I understand how one is expected to choose one unit and cast a spell in a precise spot when dozens of other units are slaughtering each other. I had a hard enough time controlling one white or black wizard in King Arthur's World (look it up) hotkeys. set casters to a hotkey group and when you need the spell, click the hotkey for your caster then hotkey cast your spell
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Apr 7, 2023 21:43
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RevolverDivider posted:hotkeys. set casters to a hotkey group and when you need the spell, click the hotkey for your caster then hotkey cast your spell Does it only use one casting of an ability like Psi Storm when you do a group of high templar, or is it more like when you've got a group of wraiths and all of them activate cloak when you turn it on? I always assumed from the wraith example that casters would just all do it when a group was selected.
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Apr 7, 2023 23:43
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I think you need a separate control group for each caster.
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Apr 8, 2023 00:14
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RevolverDivider posted:hotkeys. set casters to a hotkey group and when you need the spell, click the hotkey for your caster then hotkey cast your spell True, true... I did know about that. One other reason that I'm rubbish at RTS games and prefer TBS is that I prefer to play such games one-handed. <pause for everyone to make wanking jokes> Done? Good The reason I like to play one-handed is because of an evening I lean back in my high-backed office chair, cuddle my tabby cat in my left arm and play mouse-only games (strategy, the Sims etc) with my right. I realise that RTS games were not made to be that way, but I like cuddling my princess more than being good at silly games. disposablewords posted:Does it only use one casting of an ability like Psi Storm when you do a group of high templar, or is it more like when you've got a group of wraiths and all of them activate cloak when you turn it on? I always assumed from the wraith example that casters would just all do it when a group was selected. I'm fairly sure that some abilities are sequential, like Psi Storm and Yamato, while others are simultaneous like Cloak. Someone should check, though, as I have not played in over a year.
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Apr 8, 2023 00:32
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JustJeff88 posted:I'm fairly sure that some abilities are sequential, like Psi Storm and Yamato, while others are simultaneous like Cloak. Someone should check, though, as I have not played in over a year. That's SC2 behavior. AFAIK all spells in SC1 will cast simultaneously if given the chance. There are some tricks with targeting involving that though. Through some arcane positioning trickery you can get units casting AOE spells simultaneously to target different spots with a single order, based on their position at time of casting.
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Apr 8, 2023 00:40
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Tarezax posted:That's SC2 behavior. AFAIK all spells in SC1 will cast simultaneously if given the chance. There are some tricks with targeting involving that though. Through some arcane positioning trickery you can get units casting AOE spells simultaneously to target different spots with a single order, based on their position at time of casting. Huh... I thought that they changed that or added an option for such in Remastered, but you probably know best.
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Apr 8, 2023 01:15
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When I was playing this as a kid I would just make 12 of every unit available in the mission and attack move them at the enemy base so I could watch them fight. Don't you know that the perfect Terran army is in fact 12 marines, 12 firebats, 12 goliaths, 12 siege tanks, 12 wraiths, 12 science vessels, and 12 battlecruisers? I skipped making 12 vultures because the pilots were very rude to me.
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Apr 8, 2023 05:48
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I never really used Science Vessels except for detection because they were non-attacking units and it was so awkward to use their spells. Also, I didn't realise how piss-weak the Wraith ground attack was. At least I knew enough to know that Siege Tanks in siege mode are brilliant.
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Apr 8, 2023 15:14
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"What do YOU want?" "Oh, is THAT it?"
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Apr 8, 2023 15:44
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JustJeff88 posted:I could never wrap my head around the idea of having micro-managed individual spell-casting units. I did not then nor today can I understand how one is expected to choose one unit and cast a spell in a precise spot when dozens of other units are slaughtering each other. I had a hard enough time controlling one white or black wizard in King Arthur's World (look it up) If you have multiple spell casters moving together (like for example multiple science vessels), you stick them all in a single control group and move them together. If you only want to cast a single spell, you can select the entire group via hotkey and then select a single one via wireframe in the bottom of the screen. You can do this quite rapidly one after the other if you want to cast one spell after another. If you want to cast multiple spells at the same time, you first ensure that the units are far enough away that they have to travel a bit before being able to cast the spell. You then select the group, tell all of them to cast the spell, deselect one of them, tell all of the rest to cast the spell, deselect one of them, tell all of the rest to cast the spell, etc. That way, all of them move together, and when they arrive at the target, they will all cast their spell wherever you told them to. If all of this sounds very difficult, then that's because it is. That's why the learning curve in Starcraft 1 is a lot harder than in Starcraft 2.
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Apr 8, 2023 16:48
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Funny enough my child self actually thought SC1 was easier to control then my prior RTS experience (AOE2) solely because of attack move
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Apr 8, 2023 17:56
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anilEhilated posted:I think you need a separate control group for each caster. Yeah, separate control group per caster is how I do it. I believe players more skilled than I generally don't use control groups and instead rely more on their skill at quickly and precisely selecting units with their mouse. If you're looking to cast en masse, cloning can be useful.
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Apr 8, 2023 18:15
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titty_baby_ posted:Funny enough my child self actually thought SC1 was easier to control then my prior RTS experience (AOE2) solely because of attack move aoe2 had attack move
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Apr 9, 2023 01:08
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redleader posted:aoe2 had attack move Looking it up it was added in the 2013 expansion so wasn't present when I was playing
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Apr 9, 2023 06:39
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titty_baby_ posted:Looking it up it was added in the 2013 expansion so wasn't present when I was playing huh, i could have sworn it had attack move way earlier than that. i'd have put money on it! guess i just misremembered
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Apr 9, 2023 06:56
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