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Senor Tron
May 26, 2006


I would blow Dane Cook posted:

hard to get past this

Yeah batteries are more electrically efficient, but the resources required to store x KWH are much higher.

To double the storage capacity of a battery, you need twice as many batteries. To double the storage capacity of some thing like hydrogen or pumped hydro you just need a bigger tank/reservoir.

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Capt.Whorebags
Jan 10, 2005

G-Spot Run posted:

Uh yeah. It's not a secret, he gave testimony in the senate hearings about it. Saying the article about the RBAs plan reads like pure capitalism... Yes, the call is coming from inside the house.

Yeah it's not a surprise, I guess I would have thought the article would include some fop to people doing it tough or at least an acknowledgement from the RBA... I haven't spent time around elite economists so I was naieve to think that they would at least say the quiet part quiet, but from their perspective, it's something to crow about.

Cartoon
Jun 20, 2008

poop

Senor Tron posted:

Yeah batteries are more electrically efficient, but the resources required to store x KWH are much higher.

To double the storage capacity of a battery, you need twice as much storage. To double the storage capacity of some thing like hydrogen or pumped hydro you just need a bigger battery.

norp
Jan 20, 2004

TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

let's invade New Zealand, they have oil
I think what they meant was that a "bigger tank" is expanding the relatively simple part of the system rather than the expensive high technology bit.

starkebn
May 18, 2004

"Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"
and a battery takes way more time to charge than filling a storage tank

The Artificial Kid
Feb 22, 2002
Plibble

Senor Tron posted:

Yeah batteries are more electrically efficient, but the resources required to store x KWH are much higher.

To double the storage capacity of a battery, you need twice as many batteries. To double the storage capacity of some thing like hydrogen or pumped hydro you just need a bigger tank/reservoir.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/ptens.html

As I understand the wall tension of a pressure tank increases with size at a given pressure, meaning as you increase the surface area of your tank the cost of each square metre of surface area also increases. I don't know exactly how this balances with the non-linear benefits from the square-cube relationship in tank size.

Senor Tron
May 26, 2006


norp posted:

I think what they meant was that a "bigger tank" is expanding the relatively simple part of the system rather than the expensive high technology bit.

Yeah. Most of the costs of a battery setup are in the batteries themselves, they are the expensive high tech part.

In a hydrogen production/burning facility all that equipment is the trickier part, and just adding more tanks is a smaller investment. Similar to existing pumped hydro facilities.

As far as I'm aware anyway no-one is really talking about massive scale energy storage from batteries. They are more to cover short drops in energy production or fluctuations than give days of redundancy.

Electric Wrigglies
Feb 6, 2015

Capt.Whorebags posted:

Yeah it's not a surprise, I guess I would have thought the article would include some fop to people doing it tough or at least an acknowledgement from the RBA... I haven't spent time around elite economists so I was naieve to think that they would at least say the quiet part quiet, but from their perspective, it's something to crow about.

It is insane to expect professionals to continually make inane perfunctory qualifying remarks every time they open their mouths for decorum points or something. The guy is dealing in demographic style problems, just because the ABC loves filling up every story about widespread events with an inane personallising moment doesn't mean we want the demographic altering details to be couched in and obscured by the same.




Are you confused why liquid fuels remain popular over battery vehicles for cars, planes and boats despite electric motors being vastly simpler than internal combustion engines or even gas turbines or have you convinced yourself it is only due to O&G conspiracy that Emirates bought kerosene powered jets?

Hydrogen gas is not even the easiest storage wise - consideration has to be given to hydrogen's precocious ability to escape as well as hydrogen embrittlement, but batteries are even less a large-scale solution for energy storage.

Anyway, for those with interest in energy generation and storage, our main man Bucky started a thread on the topic https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3505076

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




I do have to wonder what the cost efficiency of a hydrogen plant is when we still have hydro that hasn't been converted to act as grid storage. Isn't that massively more economical and easier?

Electric Wrigglies
Feb 6, 2015

MikeJF posted:

I do have to wonder what the cost efficiency of a hydrogen plant is when we still have hydro that hasn't been converted to act as grid storage. Isn't that massively more economical and easier?

The conversion facilities are to convert electricity to hydrogen when you have surplus so that you then can convert hydrogen back to electricity (or process heat) at much higher rates. The only reason it is even being considered is because of the un-dispatchable sources of electricity that are going to dominate the Aussie grid in the next decade or so.

E) wait I completely misunderstood your post. Pumped storage generally requires stuffing up waterways and great natural environments which should be avoided. It is one of the reasons the old disused mine to renewable energy hubs are such great things. Take previously disturbed but otherwise disused real estate with access and sometimes even a grid connection, then build solar, wind and pumped hydro to output dispatchable power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidston_Solar_Project is a good example.

Electric Wrigglies fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Apr 7, 2023

norp
Jan 20, 2004

TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

let's invade New Zealand, they have oil

MikeJF posted:

I do have to wonder what the cost efficiency of a hydrogen plant is when we still have hydro that hasn't been converted to act as grid storage. Isn't that massively more economical and easier?

Doesn't conversion to pumped hydro require two reservoirs to work
I assume it's a significant undertaking to build a lake below an existing hydro dam

hooman
Oct 11, 2007

This guy seems legit.
Fun Shoe

Laserface posted:

I work for a company that manages most of the NSW state gov MDM (mobile device management)

the only one with any real MDM security policies (for now) is FACS/DCJ. its mostly about data sovereignty and because a lot of their work involves minors and sensitive/delicate info of people in very lovely situations (DV etc). there is 'approved' apps but they can also just grab anything from the app store if they want. the approved apps list is generally just stuff the organisation uses, but it is in addition to the app store.

AFAIK nothing is overtly blocked from the app store at this time. if there is, they dont talk about it.

most people with a gov issued phone also have a personal phone, so they dont really use anything besides Outlook/work specific apps on their work phone. i would guess it is about 5-10% that have their gov issued device as their single phone.

Thank you for this. It's very funny to me that in schools it's super restrictive what programs you can ask kids to use, or websites you can ask them to visit, they all have to be manually approved by the department prior to any usage, because of understandable concerns about data security of children. It's great that the data security of Australia is just "lmao install whatever" for politicians. (But not Tiktok, never Tiktok, we hate Tiktok)

hooman fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Apr 7, 2023

Konomex
Oct 25, 2010

a whiteman who has some authority over others, who not only hasn't raped anyone, or stared at them creepily...
I think one of the reasons they were pursuing 'green hydrogen' was the ability to generate massive quantities of it in Australia and then export it to neighbouring countries.

I've seen more movements on Sodium Flow batteries as energy storage than hydrogen tech though.

SecretOfSteel
Apr 29, 2007

The secret of steel has always
carried with it a mystery.

Oh what a light hearted story of child labour. Get. hosed...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-04-08/country-kids-solve-labour-shortage-jugiong-jam-factory/102181710

Capt.Whorebags
Jan 10, 2005

norp posted:

Doesn't conversion to pumped hydro require two reservoirs to work
I assume it's a significant undertaking to build a lake below an existing hydro dam

It does, however the secondary storage can be a lot more flexible depending on what your intended use case is.

In many cases it may be easier to build a second reservoir above the existing reservoir, particularly if you already have a large dam that is designed for flood control. You pop a second one up in a smallish valley/saddle further up the hill. Wivenhoe Dam / Splityard Creek dam is an example of this.

It may not even be a dam, it could be a number of large tanks/reservoirs, which could be perfectly adequate for short term peak generation.

I think the CSIRO did a study and found thousands of potential sites where the geography is suitable, up and down the great dividing range. You don't need a Snowy Hydro scale project to deliver meaningful results.

thatbastardken
Apr 23, 2010

A contract signed by a minor is not binding!
you can also use old mineshafts to save digging

Senor Tron
May 26, 2006


thatbastardken posted:

you can also use old mineshafts to save digging

There's a great facility in Wales that does this, using an old mine in a mountain.

hooman
Oct 11, 2007

This guy seems legit.
Fun Shoe
My understanding that Australia was pushing "hydrogen" industry as this:

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...drogen-to-japan

Basically just doing more fossil fuels but under a different name.

Capt.Whorebags
Jan 10, 2005

hooman posted:

My understanding that Australia was pushing "hydrogen" industry as this:

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...drogen-to-japan

Basically just doing more fossil fuels but under a different name.

"Green" hydrogen is a good thing, hydrogen which is produced from renewable energy. I don't think the economics are there yet.

"Blue" hydrogen, as in "blue sky", is a sham marketing term akin to clean coal or natural gas, that is used to justify more fossil fuel exploitation.

Guess which one is the favoured choice of existing resource companies.

bobvonunheil
Mar 18, 2007

Board games and tea

Capt.Whorebags posted:

"Green" hydrogen is a good thing, hydrogen which is produced from renewable energy. I don't think the economics are there yet.

"Blue" hydrogen, as in "blue sky", is a sham marketing term akin to clean coal or natural gas, that is used to justify more fossil fuel exploitation.

Guess which one is the favoured choice of existing resource companies.

I always thought it was "blue" as in the colour of burning gas. And a way to make it sound less dirty.

Capt.Whorebags
Jan 10, 2005

Probably. I just see it as a way of making something sound clean.

Senor Tron
May 26, 2006


Capt.Whorebags posted:

"Green" hydrogen is a good thing, hydrogen which is produced from renewable energy. I don't think the economics are there yet.

"Blue" hydrogen, as in "blue sky", is a sham marketing term akin to clean coal or natural gas, that is used to justify more fossil fuel exploitation.

Guess which one is the favoured choice of existing resource companies.

Andrew Forrest weirdly enough has been a very vocal exception, consistently calling out Blue Hydrogen as BS.

Synthbuttrange
May 6, 2007

Nice frontbench you've got there Dutton.

dsriggs
May 28, 2012

MONEY FALLS...

...FROM THE SKY...

...WHENEVER HE POSTS!
I'll give credit to Leeser. Kneecapped any chance he had to get ahead in that party to stand for his principles & what's right. A rare respectable decision by a Noalition MP.

Dutch Wink
May 16, 2007

The Guardian posted:

[Jacinta] Price, the first-term senator from the Northern Territory, was instrumental in the Nationals resolving to oppose the referendum last year - which set the ball rolling for the Liberals to follow suit last week. She will also lead a well-funded no campaign from the Advance conservative lobby group.

The Guardian posted:

Pauline Hanson has publicly called for Price to be named Leeser’s replacement as shadow Indigenous minister.
:hmmyes:

Senor Tron
May 26, 2006


Synthbuttrange posted:

Nice frontbench you've got there Dutton.

I wish someone with a political deathwish would just come out and do this without resigning, make Dutton publicly send them back for it.

hooman
Oct 11, 2007

This guy seems legit.
Fun Shoe
Industrial Relations commission is very very mad at WA Nurses for striking.

ABC News posted:

WA's nurses' and midwives' union has been compared to Hitler in a legal dispute which it says could see it fined more than $27 million for staging a major strike at parliament house last year.
Key points:

The Industrial Relations Commission (IRC) is claiming the union "wilfully" and "flagrantly" flouted its orders not to strike. The IRC Registrar is alleging 3,590 breaches by the union's members, and a separate one by its secretary, Janet Reah. That included 939 breaches relating to payments made by the union to members who had their pay docked as a result of going on strike. Lawyers for the registrar have not indicated how much they would like to see the union penalised. Both sides are set to discuss that matter at the end of Tuesday's hearing.

Ms Reah and the ANF ignored both an order from the Industrial Relations Commission to call off the strike, and to appear before the commission on the day it was held. The government is maintaining its current offer of between three and 4.5 per cent, plus the implementation of nurse-to-patient ratios. Speaking before the hearing, Ms Reah said she was puzzled why each breach was being treated separately.

"It seems that they just want to maximise the absolute penalty to the nth degree," she told reporters. "It's unheard of, $27 million in potential fines." Ms Reah acknowledged the union had breached the commission's orders by holding the rally. "We've not told anyone any differently. We're just wondering why they want to beat us down so badly."

Health Minister Amber-Jade Sanderson said the imposition of any fine would be "entirely" a matter for the commission. "Bargaining can be tough, and I expect all unions to bargain hard on behalf of their members, but everyone has to listen to the independent umpire. It is there to protect the community as well as employers and unions," she said.

In her opening address, the lawyer for the registrar, Cav. Maria Saraceni, described the union's actions in the lead-up to the November strike, including at a rally where union members voted on a plan for escalating industrial action, ending with the potential for a state-wide strike. Cav. Saraceni said the union had written down what it planned to do and carried it out – comparing its actions to Adolf Hitler, before withdrawing her remarks after they were described as "offensive" by the ANF's lawyer, Tim Hammond. She explained it was the first name that came to her mind, and instead compared the union to Karl Marx.

At a break in proceedings, Ms Reah said it "would have been nice" to have received an apology for that comment. "I'm just wondering what kind of country we're living in where an officer of the court likens the actions of the nurses union and the nurses and midwives of Western Australia, the plan that they had, to Hitler's Mein Kampf," she said. She described how the commission was set up, in part, to resolve industrial disputes, but said that could only happen if all parties played their part, including by following the Commission's orders. Cav. Saraceni told the commission it was "not good enough" for the ANF to pick and choose when it complied with the commission's orders, and that it had engaged in a "deliberate industrial strategy" by ignoring the instructions.

Ms Reah was "thumbing her nose" at the commission and showing "blatant disregard" for its orders, Cav. Saraceni said, when she sent a letter saying the union would go ahead with the strike less than 24 hours after being told not to. The commission was told by Cav. Saraceni that a penalty needed to be imposed both to send a message to Ms Reah and the ANF, but also other unions, that breaches of commission orders would be taken seriously.

The registrar was not seeking the deregistration of the union she said – as had been threatened last year – but only the imposition of a fine against Ms Reah and the ANF. That's despite Ms Reah previously making comments that individual nurses could be fined by the commission. "There is no reason for the union to protect nurses against the registrar," Cav. Saraceni said. "The only penalty is against the union."

Jonathon Vincent, who is employed by WA Health, gave evidence that of the 2252 nurses who were absent from work on the day of the strike, 1,812 were recorded as being on "strike leave". But defence lawyer Tim Hammond questioned how accurate that figure was, with 16 duplicate records included in the data – being people with the same first and last name.

Mr Vincent explained that in some cases, the data was pulled from a system more than 30 years old and running on MS-DOS. He acknowledged the data was only as accurate as what was entered, but that staff had had four months to correct any inaccurate information. The duplicates could result from the same person incorrectly being recorded twice, or because they were rostered on at two different hospitals on the same day. Mr Vincent said it meant as many as four staff recorded as being on strike could have been duplicate entries – potentially making the true number 1,808.

The commission also heard from Dr Tudor Codreanu, the health department's director of disaster preparedness, who was involved in managing the impacts of last year's strike. Dr Codreanu said while the union had said the strike was only planned to last from 7am to 9pm, he was not convinced that would be respected. "We had no idea what exactly was going to materialise in hospitals across the state," he said. "I had to manage uncertainty."

His evidence showed 338 elective surgeries and 350 out-patient appointments had to be cancelled as a result, but he could not say how that compared to normal days. The industrial action was estimated to have cost the health department at least $62,000 in administrative costs and replacement staff. He said while the health system continued to operate at an acceptable level despite the strike, that was "not by luck, by preparation" and wasn't "without risks".

Nurses vote to strike, commission tells them 24 hours before they're not allowed to, and they say gently caress you and strike anyway. WA nurses are the best, good on them and hopefully they tear down the IRC completely and reinstate our ability to loving strike in this country.

Cartoon
Jun 20, 2008

poop
The sheer level of political incompetence required to self wedge your party on what was potentially a complete non-issue really sets Dutton apart. He *shudder* may yet make Scumbo look decent in hindsight.

MysticalMachineGun
Apr 5, 2005

Cartoon posted:

The sheer level of political incompetence required to self wedge your party on what was potentially a complete non-issue really sets Dutton apart. He *shudder* may yet make Scumbo look decent in hindsight.

Impossible, they're still unearthing things Morrison hosed up

EoinCannon
Aug 29, 2008

Grimey Drawer

Cartoon posted:

The sheer level of political incompetence required to self wedge your party on what was potentially a complete non-issue really sets Dutton apart. He *shudder* may yet make Scumbo look decent in hindsight.

It takes more than mere incompetence to be worse than Scott.

Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

If only all of life's problems could be solved by smoking a professor of ancient evil texts.



Bread Liar

hooman posted:

Industrial Relations commission is very very mad at WA Nurses for striking.

Nurses vote to strike, commission tells them 24 hours before they're not allowed to, and they say gently caress you and strike anyway. WA nurses are the best, good on them and hopefully they tear down the IRC completely and reinstate our ability to loving strike in this country.

Can the IRC levy jail time?

If not, the nurses should just keep ignoring it until they win.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




Yeah, go ahead and throw the entire city's nurses into jail. If you're critical and it's illegal for you to strike that just means you throw 'gently caress you, grant us amnesty' onto your strike demands. All in.

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Apr 12, 2023

hooman
Oct 11, 2007

This guy seems legit.
Fun Shoe

Megillah Gorilla posted:

Can the IRC levy jail time?

If not, the nurses should just keep ignoring it until they win.

No they can't, they can levy fines, or force the union to disband, but then lol, lmao every nurse individually wildcat strikes and what are you going to do? Fire them all?

If they're going down that route then you probably also get solidarity strikes (even though they're also illegal) from other public sector unions, because at that point gently caress you entirely, and the entire structure of your bureaucracy burns down.

It's kind of telling that they've been hard on the rhetoric but soft on the consequences because they know if they push too hard they just get straight wildcat action and everyone realises they're actually toothless against truly collective action.

Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

If only all of life's problems could be solved by smoking a professor of ancient evil texts.



Bread Liar
I grew up in the 70s and remember there being so many strikes. If you look at all the benefits and safety and good conditions we have today, so many of them stem from that period. So naturally, successive government spent that last 40 years doing everything they could to return the power to capital at the expense of the workers.

The IRC was created to destroy the union movement in Australia, so it's only fair a union destroys it.

Konomex
Oct 25, 2010

a whiteman who has some authority over others, who not only hasn't raped anyone, or stared at them creepily...

hooman posted:

No they can't, they can levy fines, or force the union to disband, but then lol, lmao every nurse individually wildcat strikes and what are you going to do? Fire them all?

If they're going down that route then you probably also get solidarity strikes (even though they're also illegal) from other public sector unions, because at that point gently caress you entirely, and the entire structure of your bureaucracy burns down.

It's kind of telling that they've been hard on the rhetoric but soft on the consequences because they know if they push too hard they just get straight wildcat action and everyone realises they're actually toothless against truly collective action.

I've been having arguments with many a people this week about the Nurse Union strikes and the idiocy of the IRC. As a teacher in WA I would fully strike in solidarity with the nursing union if that were to happen and I'd be encouraging other teachers to do so too. We've got a public sector alliance in the state right now to help each other raise the pay and conditions of the entire public sector. If the nurses get 5%, then teachers get 5% as well. So I'm fully rooting for them. Especially since we've already begun letters of exchange for this year I believe.

Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

If only all of life's problems could be solved by smoking a professor of ancient evil texts.



Bread Liar
God, if this sparks something in Australia I would be so happy.

Regular Wario
Mar 27, 2010

Slippery Tilde
Why would you piss off nurses? They can hurt you then patch you up so they can keep hurting you

JBP
Feb 16, 2017

You've got to know, to understand,
Baby, take me by my hand,
I'll lead you to the promised land.
The nurses union is the strongest in the country. I would like to see them in a real fight. They'll win and send a message.

SecretOfSteel
Apr 29, 2007

The secret of steel has always
carried with it a mystery.

Nurses Union being declared both right-wing fascists and left-wing commies is an achievement in itself. I don't think these people know what words mean.

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Bald Stalin
Jul 11, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 17 hours!

SecretOfSteel posted:

Nurses Union being declared both right-wing fascists and left-wing commies is an achievement in itself. I don't think these people know what words mean.

It's very straight forward if you're a liberal. It's aka Horseshoe theory.

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