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Gantolandon posted:But that’s exactly what happened historically. No one emigrated to the city, slept in a moldy basement with his entire family, and got paid a pittance for dangerous work fourteen hours per day because he wanted to. But there was a huge surplus of former peasants put out of business by enclosures and agricultural innovations. I suppose the player is going to start acting like a European in 1836, and therefore start dealing with European problems around the same date, which feels weird, but I guess is plausible. Though there's a point to be made if dynamic building necessarily means that your aristo pops are always going to cause this issue regardless of player input. That wouldn't be great.
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Apr 7, 2023 19:28
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Unemployment is good because it keeps the workers hungry enough to work for the needful to make line go up
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Apr 7, 2023 19:34
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Agean90 posted:Yeah Japan just kinda struggles with unemployment, best solution was removing closed borders and let immigration to Hokkaido and I manually modded a bunch of names to remove the irl colony names and replaced them with local names of the area or their current names. It doesn't make sense to have port harcourt or porto novo when the british or portugese are nowhere to be seen also the mod that changes all the medditerranian/balkan states to use the turkish buildings. looks way better.
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Apr 7, 2023 20:50
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:Unemployment is good because it keeps the workers hungry enough to work for the needful to make line go up Love when game mechanics organically reflect reality.
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Apr 7, 2023 20:58
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Is there a good reason to not want to become a protectorate of GB or some other European major power if you're unrecognised? Yeah, the eventual process of getting out of their market is annoying, but you get the huge benefit of removing a potential antagonist power and being part of a well developed market, and they usually will be able to be swayed into joining your plays. It's starting to feel like a no-brainer because even though it's possible to navigate between the cracks it's so much easier when you have at least one state which probably won't be trying to gently caress with you constantly.
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Apr 7, 2023 21:09
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I'm playing an Australia game right now and the main issue is that although I get access to the best market in the world I also have no control over that market so I'm very much at the whims of my overlord to not crash my economy. Or if GB has a civil war or something I'm just straight hosed. Also, gently caress the French. I had to console peace a war between GB and France where they drove my market access to <50% because of convoy raiding and neither side would peace out even after the primary target was peaced out for years due to stupid war demands. edit: so there's your answer. The AI is an rear end in a top hat.
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Apr 7, 2023 21:23
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:Unemployment is good because it keeps the workers hungry enough to work for the needful to make line go up reserve army of labor etc
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Apr 7, 2023 21:51
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RabidWeasel posted:Is there a good reason to not want to become a protectorate of GB or some other European major power if you're unrecognised? Yeah, the eventual process of getting out of their market is annoying, but you get the huge benefit of removing a potential antagonist power and being part of a well developed market, and they usually will be able to be swayed into joining your plays. It's starting to feel like a no-brainer because even though it's possible to navigate between the cracks it's so much easier when you have at least one state which probably won't be trying to gently caress with you constantly. Besides all the annoyance with losing market access at war/revolutions/etc and the pain of digging your economy out gutter later if you ever split with them..technically they can use it to siphon away your population with migration. I haven't had much issues with that, since usually it ends with me siphoning their population instead, but it's possible.
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Apr 7, 2023 22:08
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RabidWeasel posted:Is there a good reason to not want to become a protectorate of GB or some other European major power if you're unrecognised? in the future Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism DLC things are going to be spicy on that front because yeah, your consideration is appropriate. Since there's no foreign circulation of capital and thus no extraction of foreign surplus value, joining an industrially developed market is, for certain countries, a far more advantageous proposition than in history, where those countries were forced into those markets by coastal bombardment more often than not. Against their industrial advantage, they were hopeless to meet them on "free market" terms; trying to do that anyway got the gunboats coming back in a rush. The gameplay of being the subject/dependant party right now is very Dengist: the player sequesters the market by successfully addressing the demands of the major, while acquiring capital and means to push forward much faster than by itself, with additional advantages such as no exchange rates and how that influences on wages, etc. It seems definitely the way to go to turbocharge in South America right now because of the low population and huge tracts of land for example
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Apr 7, 2023 22:22
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RabidWeasel posted:Is there a good reason to not want to become a protectorate of GB or some other European major power if you're unrecognised? Yeah, the eventual process of getting out of their market is annoying, but you get the huge benefit of removing a potential antagonist power and being part of a well developed market, and they usually will be able to be swayed into joining your plays. It's starting to feel like a no-brainer because even though it's possible to navigate between the cracks it's so much easier when you have at least one state which probably won't be trying to gently caress with you constantly. if they get a domineering attitude your protector could instead be the one given free reign to puppet/annex their own vassal
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Apr 7, 2023 22:45
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:if they get a domineering attitude your protector could instead be the one given free reign to puppet/annex their own vassal I don't think you can directly annex protectorates, so while this is true, they could also just puppet or annex you if you're independent, so this doesn't seem like a weak point?
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Apr 7, 2023 22:49
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RabidWeasel posted:I don't think you can directly annex protectorates, so while this is true, they could also just puppet or annex you if you're independent, so this doesn't seem like a weak point? No but you do get a discount on vassalizing them, and people are directly/indirectly as a result less likely to block/be swayed than if you were independent. It's not a huge thing (esp since the AI isn't too good at it), but it can be the first step into being absorbed.
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Apr 7, 2023 23:27
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Has anyone measured to see if TRPF emerges from Vicky 3's mechanics
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Apr 7, 2023 23:39
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Yeah I'd be willing to join GB's customs union more if I had an easy way to check on domestic good production, in order to make sure I can maintain autarky in the face of sudden conflict or the AI going "nah gently caress you" out of the blue
toasterwarrior fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Apr 8, 2023 |
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Apr 7, 2023 23:42
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also having your own provinces get isolated from each other on a market failure is really annoying conceptually
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Apr 7, 2023 23:44
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VostokProgram posted:Has anyone measured to see if TRPF emerges from Vicky 3's mechanics It's more "assumed by" than "emerges from", but yeah. Don't think it can be approached much more seriously than "private investment picks the most profitable building, which becomes less profitable because the supply:demand ratio increases" without changing the core assumption that the player controls PMs, PM granularity is per-state, and PM can be changed arbitrarily with no investment penalty or cooldown. toasterwarrior posted:Yeah I'd be willing to join GB's customs union more if I had an easy way to check on domestic good production, in order to make sure I can maintain autarky in the face of sudden conflict or the AI going "nah gently caress you" out of the bluw I bashed together a quick-and-dirty xls the last time I was on a serious binge, it's pretty out-of-date and especially weak on farm types that don't appear in East Asia but I don't believe too much has changed re: inputs and methods. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WRkQwpLn8iBBVjdv-v-PCZfapel5ZlCMwo0JuFNIaG4
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Apr 8, 2023 00:09
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So just to see what would happen I decided to start as a minor unrecognised nation and immediately become a protectorate of GB. Trip report: things went great for a few years until for some reason there was a massive shortage of tools and iron and the cost of construction tripled causing a huge downturn I had no way of getting out of OTOH on the diplomatic side it was great, I was able to use British weapons to conquer all of my neighbours basically for free and presumably because the AI realises that you're able to sway your overlord into most plays none of the other GP AIs tried to interfere even once. So yeah, not having any meaningful control over your own market sucks, but having a great power you can use as a club to get your own way is really good
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Apr 8, 2023 09:39
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In a mexico game i immediately became a protectorate of France and the only downside was when my market access tanked due to a civil war in France
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Apr 8, 2023 18:48
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New massive MP game (20+ players) from famous Danish youtuber Bokoen1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlDJ0w64NYo
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Apr 8, 2023 22:05
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Really tho being a protectorate is the best of all worlds, you can still do imports and exports, you can till collect tariffs, you can still have your own foreign policy up to and including going to war against whoever your supposed overlord is without losing the benefits and to top it all off because your in the same market you can still use them as your POPpig to make sure you never run out of labor.
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Apr 8, 2023 22:34
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But my national dignity!
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Apr 8, 2023 22:49
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Man, this game can be so random. I just tried two starts with identical player decisions as the US. In one I was chipping away at the landowners until 1960 and still not able to abolish slavery without triggering a civil war, and then I restarted and they got kneecapped by election events, I was able to get 30-year old Lincoln in office in 1840 and have slavery abolished without a revolution by 42. It seems like the timing of triggering the Path to Liberalism event with its bonuses is important (along with getting Lincoln and his bonuses), but I'm not convinced there's a reliable way to actually make this work early on unless I'm missing some gamier strategies. I also tried just triggering the civil war right away, but I wasn't able to figure out how the reconstruction event chain worked. I kept picking decisions to punish the former confederates, but it seemed like I wasn't making any progress towards finishing it in a way that wouldn't dump a ton of radicals on me. It's hard to spend too much time thinking about that after seeing how quickly and easily you can neuter them peacefully if the right things fall your way. Edit: ok, I was also able to abolish slavery in December '38 by passing censorship and picking pro-slavery options in a couple events to please the landowners enough to abolish slavery without radicalizing. This seems much more repeatable (but still a bit random), but doing it this way means the landowners are still powerful (and pissy) so you'll have to play it safe until the 10-year timer for the slavery debate ends. Randallteal fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Apr 9, 2023 |
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Apr 9, 2023 06:10
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Lol I like the idea of that: agreeing to compromise on passoing gag laws if they agree to ban slavery and then shouting "no takebacks"
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Apr 9, 2023 13:55
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Randallteal posted:Man, this game can be so random. I just tried two starts with identical player decisions as the US. In one I was chipping away at the landowners until 1960 and still not able to abolish slavery sounds about right for a historical playthrough
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Apr 9, 2023 13:59
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hailthefish posted:sounds about right for a historical playthrough “we might need to do some definition work to represent that properly for that late late game but yeah its wad”
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Apr 9, 2023 15:51
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I get that they want the political system to be dynamic but when an ideologly is mostly based around one or two laws the affected interest group should probably be proportionally more angry about it being disrupted compared to more diffuse changes.
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Apr 10, 2023 11:21
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Agean90 posted:Really tho being a protectorate is the best of all worlds, you can still do imports and exports, you can till collect tariffs, you can still have your own foreign policy up to and including going to war against whoever your supposed overlord is without losing the benefits and to top it all off because your in the same market you can still use them as your POPpig to make sure you never run out of labor. Yeah its kind of weird that there are very few downsides to being a protectorate. You basically share all of your resources equally. I guess thats kind of a quirk of the economic system, but it really ought to be made more extractive to be historically accurate.
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Apr 11, 2023 15:05
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Fister Roboto posted:Yeah its kind of weird that there are very few downsides to being a protectorate. You basically share all of your resources equally. I guess thats kind of a quirk of the economic system, but it really ought to be made more extractive to be historically accurate. Do protectorates not pay a bunch of stuff into overlord's budget? I know I had to when I played Canada (with jumps periodically!), but I am unclear on how exactly different subject types differ.
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Apr 11, 2023 15:14
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OddObserver posted:Do protectorates not pay a bunch of stuff into overlord's budget? I know I had to when I played Canada (with jumps periodically!), but I am unclear on how exactly different subject types differ. other types hand over a good chunk of income, but protectorates only give up half their convoys, which is a steal for being able to skip the initial buildup phase of the game and skip straight to iron framed buildings and steel tool
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Apr 11, 2023 15:37
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In the future I hope we get more steps on the escalation ladder, like a Diplo Play to embargo someone, and you give a bunch of Obligations/payments/whatever out to other powers to also embargo someone.
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Apr 11, 2023 16:08
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Theoretically protectorates should be getting boned by cheap manufactured goods killing their profitability... don't think it works out that way tho.
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Apr 11, 2023 16:32
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Theoretically protectorates should be getting boned by cheap manufactured goods killing their profitability... don't think it works out that way tho. Should probably depend on tech differential, right? An extremely underdeveloped nation with an extraction economy would benefit a lot in the short-to-medium term with free access to manufactured goods they couldn't produce/produce at scale. It's only when they have PMs and literate pops to compete with these industries that overlord "crowd out" should become a problem, right? There should be even more province bonuses (both natural and project-based) to encourage national specialization and leaning in to particular competitive advantage. Also, maybe more than two provinces worldwide that boost energy production. DJ_Mindboggler fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Apr 11, 2023 |
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Apr 11, 2023 16:56
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Theoretically a protectorate is always good for a larger country. Is your protectorate consuming a bunch of your your goods, raising prices? That's good, your producers are more profitable! Is your protectorate churning out a bunch of cheap goods or resources, driving prices down? That's good! Your consumers are saving money and you're free to expand things that consume said resources! The thing is a player is going to probably skip straight to the most profitable industries and benefit disproportionately. But it won't be directly at the expense of their overlord- everyone will benefit from the arrangement to some extent. At least until the player feels confident enough to leave their market and takes entire critical industries with them.
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Apr 11, 2023 17:12
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Also you can do the geopolitical equivalent of findom by using subsidies to crash a random industry. Depeasant-izing your country? Stack up on what's already cheap and use subsidies to crash your Poppigs agricultural sector. Now they pay you for the privilege of not starving assuming they don't drop into a civil war
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Apr 11, 2023 17:20
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I think the issue is that as a protectorate, your market just becomes your overlord's market. If there was a way to keep the markets separate but connected, it might me more accurate. Like maybe the overlord should be able to set up whatever trade routes they want with the protectorate, even if it becomes unprofitable for the protectorate.
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Apr 11, 2023 19:36
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Fister Roboto posted:I think the issue is that as a protectorate, your market just becomes your overlord's market. If there was a way to keep the markets separate but connected, it might me more accurate. Like maybe the overlord should be able to set up whatever trade routes they want with the protectorate, even if it becomes unprofitable for the protectorate. Is there really an issue with protectorates? It's just one power saying "hands off this country, they're important to my economy". Joining a customs union actually typically comes first, and has all the effects you're talking about. "Protectorate" status is just "no one mess with these guys" on top of joining a customs union.
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Apr 11, 2023 20:11
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While most Interest Groups in the game are pretty close to their real-life equivalent, the Petite Bourgeoisie is downright weird. By default, they are as reactionary as Landowners and the Devout, except that instead of a medieval country where hunting peasants is legal, they seem to pine for a totalitarian nightmare taken straight out of 1984. They support the Militarized Police Force, Secret Police, Censorship, Outlawed Dissent, and pretty much every form of racism (the harder, the better). At this point, you could rename them "Hitler's Nazis". While it's true that small business owners and such were instrumental in NSDAP getting support in Weimar Germany, this happened after many years of industrialization loving over the craftsmen and the growing support for communism among the working class, which Petite Bourgeoisie employed. Even without the lost war, they had a reason to feel the world was going to poo poo and pine for some idealized past where everyone knew their place. There's no reason for a shopkeeper to wake up in 1836 and immediately start writing a petition to establish Gestapo.
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Apr 11, 2023 21:07
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By the 1850s, you've got plenty of reason for them to wake up and decide to hire the Pinkertons; by the 1870s this became engaging the firm on the government dime as a proto-FBI. It's not at all odd, they're the class which benefits most from creating government entities whose purpose is oppression rather than resisting government efforts to reign in privilege as they remain too individually weak to simply demand prerogative to provide their own "security" at their own whim. Likewise to continue from the American example, Know-Nothing support was deeply rooted among small businessmen and professionals; studies of surviving membership rosters show few truly rich but also few laborers.
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Apr 11, 2023 21:40
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The petite-bourgeoisie was a very anxious class already by the game start. The main reasons why were correctly identified by Marx: they are a transitional class that is threatened by the development of capitalism and will be swept over while also self-delusional about their own societal role, where they work but because of their modicum of property they do not see themselves as workers, so they identify with the issues raised by capitalists; however, even so, they recognize as well that they are completely vulnerable against major capital, but lapse into error by mistaking symptoms as causes: immigrants are the problem, not the owning interests of the loving ugly megamarket who deliberately seek them as a super-exploitable labor force. Like, "no Irish need apply" was almost never seen in an English factory; yet Liverpool was rife with placards in all sorts of places.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:33
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I'm just waiting on Antibiotics to finish researching and then I'll be done with the Healthy Man of Europe achievement. The Ottomans are saddled with some fairly crippling penalties in the first 15-20 years, but they're a fairly unique powerhouse after that. I think they're the only country that can easily maintain a contiguous land empire across Europe, Asia, and Africa. This becomes hugely important when you're wrestling for first place! Your supply routes essentially can't be disrupted and your enemy's routes (in Africa and India specifically) very much can. I was able to liberate the EITC in the first 40 years (I think?) by building a network of puppet states up to the border and then blowing up all the British convoys. France is particularly vulnerable to having their economy get recked by lack of access to oil - they're heavily dependent on colonies in Africa (like Niger and Chad) for oil rigs, and you can trivially take those off their hands via that convoy raider lifestyle Gato The Elder fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Apr 11, 2023 |
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