(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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is regular maoism ok
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Apr 7, 2023 22:32
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still struggling to explain how any westerners itt have class consciousness already if its so fuckin impossible!
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Apr 7, 2023 22:44
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Al! posted:is regular maoism ok definitely so. in fact, doing a maoism has the same effect of doing a concentrated bicep curl for the poster
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Apr 7, 2023 22:47
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croup coughfield posted:still struggling to explain how any westerners itt have class consciousness already if its so fuckin impossible! they generally don't? i'm sorry i guess it's a really rough thing to realize and good luck with the reading group or whatever
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Apr 7, 2023 22:48
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id like to think the marxism thread is a cut above the rabble of cspam
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Apr 7, 2023 22:58
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what is this dnd "western workers get a permanent -6 modifier to class consciousness" poo poo
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Apr 7, 2023 23:09
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Al! posted:what is this dnd "western workers get a permanent -6 modifier to class consciousness" poo poo read settlers
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Apr 7, 2023 23:10
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its in the errata for the 2nd edition
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Apr 7, 2023 23:11
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i dont read, im an anarchist
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Apr 7, 2023 23:12
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monte cook politics
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Apr 7, 2023 23:12
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Brain Candy posted:they generally don't? i'm sorry i guess it's a really rough thing to realize and good luck with the reading group or whatever Actually they do, it's a big problem
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Apr 7, 2023 23:16
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Al! posted:what is this dnd "western workers get a permanent -6 modifier to class consciousness" poo poo they have a point tbh. from birth westerners are raised to conceive of the world in only liberal terms (as well as indoctrinated with anticommunism) in both education and entertainment. it isn't that westerners are born with original sin, but the cultural rearing the majority of us receive doesn't provide the tools for thinking about this stuff, let alone a roadmap for developing them. we don't start with -6 class consciousness but our society tries to get us there e: like a perfect example is how we're taught that racism is something that bad people did/do. that's true to a point, but it completely elides systemic forms of impersonal racism, so you get a bunch of 30 year olds saying and believing stuff like "if you just obey the officer nothing bad will happen" indigi has issued a correction as of 23:21 on Apr 7, 2023 |
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Apr 7, 2023 23:18
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croup coughfield posted:still struggling to explain how any westerners itt have class consciousness already if its so fuckin impossible! something like 90% of the communists i know irl are autistic or have adhd or some other brain problem so i assume that must help
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Apr 7, 2023 23:25
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im not sure why people are getting so worked up over brain candys posts, unless i missed it he didn't say anything about revolutionary potential or lack thereof as anything intrinsic or immutable, it just is what it is
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Apr 7, 2023 23:29
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its something to talk about
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Apr 7, 2023 23:31
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:Actually they do, it's a big problem yeah, fair enough
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Apr 7, 2023 23:34
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Brain Candy posted:they generally don't? i'm sorry i guess it's a really rough thing to realize and good luck with the reading group or whatever apologies my friend, but this seems to me as defeatism for example, American labor movements and socialist organizations were absolutely formidable in the late 19th and early 20th centuries; even though an absolute fuckton has changed, there are new historical conditions and thus opportunities to be realized
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Apr 7, 2023 23:34
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croup coughfield posted:still struggling to explain how any westerners itt have class consciousness already if its so fuckin impossible! I'm a bougie gently caress and for me it was working in urban public schools seeing how all the systems worked in tandem to crush multiple generations of families into paste through economic violence that pushed me from progressive social democrat to actual socialist. Without those relationships and direct contact I'd probably be a Warren voter or something equally embarrassing
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Apr 7, 2023 23:40
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oh for sure but America's labor movement is practically back at the starting line and the route is all uphill now
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Apr 7, 2023 23:41
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Al! posted:its something to talk about
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Apr 7, 2023 23:44
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indigi posted:you need a pretty solid base of monetary and manpower support to begin addressing his list of people's needs, even on a neighborhood scale. like yes it's dead on, but a local DSA chapter (not to pick on DSA, they're actually one of the only groups who can even get this far along) doing a canned goods drive or brake light repair once a month - in different parts of the city - doesn't give people enough to rally around Yeah most of the poo poo out there is at like Step 3 and the decimated USA left is at like step 0.5
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Apr 8, 2023 01:23
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hmm hmm curious there's only 2 leftists in cspam
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Apr 8, 2023 01:25
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yeah the big problem you're going to run into is mao is telling you 'loving find out what the classes are, do the work' and doing the work is 1) really hard 2) takes a group of dedicated people 3) and money i'm not aware of any academic maoists who have successfully laid out all the social classes of modern america so i mean, its really good guidance and its work that would need to be done but its also a few steps farther along than we can manage it would also have to be highly intersectional because the uniquely racist foundation of the american state but all the left theorists working in the space got shot decades ago lol, and now liberal perspectives on race dominate atelier morgan has issued a correction as of 01:38 on Apr 8, 2023 |
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Apr 8, 2023 01:33
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i could do it. give me money
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Apr 8, 2023 02:13
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could probably start a communist logging collective around here and as a bonus piss off the green anarchists
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Apr 8, 2023 02:16
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you have my axe
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Apr 8, 2023 02:17
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Sunny Side Up posted:LOL I guess not go full Richard Wolff on co-ops and useless poo poo Althusser's immense influence on Wolff cannot be overstated. His career was built on it. The following excerpts are from Knowledge and Class: A Marxian Critique of Political Economy (Resnick and Wolff, 1987): ✂️  ✂️  ✂️  [/quote] mawarannahr has issued a correction as of 06:33 on Apr 17, 2023 |
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Apr 8, 2023 02:36
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althussey has anyone said that
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Apr 8, 2023 02:46
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croup coughfield posted:althussey has anyone said that Alternative Hussy
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Apr 8, 2023 02:49
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Al! posted:could probably start a communist logging collective around here and as a bonus piss off the green anarchists hell yea
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Apr 8, 2023 03:03
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Al! posted:could probably start a communist logging collective around here and as a bonus piss off the green anarchists duelling fish camps
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Apr 8, 2023 03:09
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Brain Candy posted:or rather if the pamplet works it's because the person reading was already primed to believe that their current framing was incorrect and so all they needed was an alternative "woah"
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Apr 8, 2023 11:06
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vyLkinSinksTheShip posted:a.i., robots, law enforcement, legalization of drugs, prob some more stuff i'm forgetting Is this a callout to vyelkin? o7
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Apr 8, 2023 11:12
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i actually am reading settlers with some friends and up through chapter 6 it's pretty good, a solid materialist overview of various class struggles in the US and the way taking place in a settler state economically dependent on imperial conquest and extraction has sabotaged them. his examples of the boer war and the anti-imperialist league are pretty good illustrations of a repeating dynamic which i'd summarize like: * thanks to imperialism, an upper echelon of first world workers can get special treats * however, the more imperialism goes on, the stronger the bourgeoisie become relative even to those workers, and the more easily they can cut down the treats to a bare minimum * the workers oppose imperialism, but only insofar as they can protect or even increase their treat ration, and aren't willing to go the extra step of actually taking the side of the people getting colonized i haven't gotten to the part of the book about israel yet but since israel is basically a bonsai version of the usa i think it's probably an even more apt example than anything that's happened in the US. since israel's economic fortunes are intimately entwined with its ability to steal palestinian land and genocide palestinian people, israeli workers don't actually have the kind of decisive power over the economy required to take over society from the bourgeoisie. rather, israeli cops and soldiers do. workers are at best partners and co-conspirators in the economy rather than than its irreplaceable foundation
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Apr 8, 2023 18:18
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sounds like defeatism
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Apr 8, 2023 19:05
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indigi posted:sounds like defeatism well i don't know what sakai's ultimate prescriptions or conclusions are but i don't think it's any more defeatist than eg the structural criticisms lenin makes of union struggles in russia. ultimately it's just true that whites workers maintaining their place of privilege within the economic world system is incompatible with white workers winning the fight for socialism. socialism is in fact better than being grandma's favorite toddler, even though it entails doing for yourself certain things that used to get done for you, so the challenge is recognizing this fact and developing the discipline required to eat a short term loss for a long term gain by analogy, reform and opening up was very painful for the chinese but certainly seems to be working out on the decades rather than years scale. they tried a lot of stuff that was more appealing in the short term but didn't work out on the long term first. we're still ultimately faced with an education and organizing problem rather than intractable racial antagonism
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Apr 8, 2023 19:35
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indigi posted:sounds like defeatism in a way it is esp. with sakai who i think gets caught in capitalist realism, but dismissing the topic completely is dumb. there has to be reasons there weren't and aren't proletarian revolutions in the west, and if you're not willing actually do analysis then shut up please
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Apr 8, 2023 20:16
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:take away their cheeseburgers make it sting
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Apr 8, 2023 20:20
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Brain Candy posted:in a way it is esp. with sakai who i think gets caught in capitalist realism, but dismissing the topic completely is dumb. there has to be reasons there weren't and aren't proletarian revolutions in the west, and if you're not willing actually do analysis then shut up please i would say the most pessimistic reading of settlers, and general analysis of the effects of the "bourgeois proletariat" that engels and lenin variously describe, is that socialism is probably going to come to north america last, not never. and even in that case there's a lot of work to do
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Apr 8, 2023 20:45
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I was just JK about defeatism. but it's a sad and confounding issue that nobody really knows how to even attempt to solve in the short to medium terms
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Apr 8, 2023 21:10
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