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PostNouveau posted:They're all his clients. He makes all the sales and account connections. We may steal a few from him to strike out on our own with, but it would be a huge risk. It's an established role, the last guy who was an outside hire left a while ago because he was totally incompetent at it. His duties have been split up among various members of upper management since. I'm very confident I would be good at it.
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Apr 1, 2023 04:22
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Anyways, I'm going to make a detailed document of my total compensation I'm currently receiving and ask them to at least match that for my new role but hopefully get an increase. I do believe alot in this company and think there are alot of intangible benefits to moving forward with my career. I just needed the confidence of knowing it's not inappropriate to value myself. I thank you my fellow goons.
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Apr 1, 2023 04:50
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Oh, just got a long email from the ops manager's personal email that was basically like "I'm quitting way before you're gonna be able to solve this problem." Used "hostile work environment" in it. I guess he is much smarter than me and can already see what's up.pencilhands posted:It's an established role, the last guy who was an outside hire left a while ago because he was totally incompetent at it. His duties have been split up among various members of upper management since. I'm very confident I would be good at it. OK, yeah sounds like they're on the up-and-up, just screwing with you on the salary. You should counter with a good bit more than you currently make and see what shakes out. They may surprise you or you have plenty of room to retreat.
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Apr 1, 2023 05:10
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Just don’t feel obligated to provide that document to them to make your case (it might well be counterproductive). Figure out the number you would need and give that to them. I can’t think they would fire you for refusing a promotion, although it might smudge your reputation internally a bit. Others probably have better insight on that bit than me.
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Apr 1, 2023 05:49
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pencilhands posted:Can't they fire me for saying no? Assuming you are in America they can probably let you go at any time for any reason. I’ll say that being a very highly paid individual contributor is a potentially vulnerable position. If you lost your current job for any reason it sounds like you would have a very hard time getting a similarly paying role. Would you be able to easily get a role similar to the one being offered to you now at another company, or no? If no, I’d probably take the step back to take two steps forward in the future and reduce risk. If yes, you could ride the current role gravy train as long as possible.
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Apr 1, 2023 12:39
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:Just don’t feel obligated to provide that document to them to make your case (it might well be counterproductive). Figure out the number you would need and give that to them. I can’t think they would fire you for refusing a promotion, although it might smudge your reputation internally a bit. Others probably have better insight on that bit than me. Refusing the promotion would certainly decrease the odds that the OP is offered a promotion in the future.
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Apr 1, 2023 12:41
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Assuming you are in America they can probably let you go at any time for any reason. Ugh yeah, that’s what gives me pause here. I’m grossly overpaid in my current position AND I doubt many other companies would take a chance on moving me to a project management position given my lack of a degree or experience. So I’m having a super hard time being able to tell if they’re trying to take advantage of my lack of experience or if it’s actually a good deal in the long term for me to eat poo poo temporarily lol.
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Apr 1, 2023 12:47
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Assuming you are in America they can probably let you go at any time for any reason. This is very good advice. It sounds like you maybe are paid over market right now, which is great! BUT, that doesn't mean they are obligated to offer you advancement that is similarly over market. It may make sense to stay where you are forever, but if it doesn't how does their offer compare to what you'd get in the industry? Would you ever want to jump if it means taking a market-rate pay cut? If so, is now as good of a time as any? In my younger days I knew people who wanted to stay poo poo shovellers for $30 an hour than take a pay cut and be a poo poo shovelling supervisor. Now they are still at that job while the supervisors are making triple because they kept climbing. That isn't universally true by any stretch but it is a not uncommon "trap" Also: KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Refusing the promotion would certainly decrease the odds that the OP is offered a promotion in the future. Again, this may or may not be fine but its important to understand the situation.
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Apr 1, 2023 17:02
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Lockback posted:This is very good advice. It sounds like you maybe are paid over market right now, which is great! BUT, that doesn't mean they are obligated to offer you advancement that is similarly over market. It may make sense to stay where you are forever, but if it doesn't how does their offer compare to what you'd get in the industry? Would you ever want to jump if it means taking a market-rate pay cut? If so, is now as good of a time as any? Let’s say becoming the poo poo shoveling supervisor is, over the long term, a better outcome. Would it be worth it for me to ask to be paid the same as the poo poo shoveler, or could that backfire?
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Apr 1, 2023 17:36
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pencilhands posted:Let’s say becoming the poo poo shoveling supervisor is, over the long term, a better outcome. Would it be worth it for me to ask to be paid the same as the poo poo shoveler, or could that backfire? If that request is above market rate they'd probably say no (they can just go hire their own supervisor from the outside) and then it's decision time for you. You should ask though. Its important to understand market rate of this new role.
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Apr 1, 2023 17:43
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Note that it’s a request, not really a negotiation. If they like you they’ll probably at least throw you a couple bucks. But just know you’re begging and have zero leverage. I might take a reasonable person approach and say “look I know I’m paid well for my role now, which I appreciate, and I really appreciate the opportunity you are giving me to advance my career here. I recognize that I’ll take a pay cut in the short term but I’m sure you guys understand X% is hard to stomach. Would it be possible to come in at $Y?” Being pretty careful to anchor Y at a reasonable point given other people in the role etc.
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Apr 1, 2023 17:56
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Why do you think I have zero leverage? I thought I had some because they need someone to take this role and i could potentially say no thank you and stay on as a foreman. pencilhands fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Apr 1, 2023 |
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Apr 1, 2023 18:01
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Then they go find someone else. It’s a little bit of a pain but not that much.
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Apr 1, 2023 18:29
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Then they go find someone else. It’s a little bit of a pain but not that much. I mean, that's the case in any job negotiation though. So you have some but since they ALSO control your BATNA here you kinda have to take a bit different approach. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I might take a reasonable person approach and say “look I know I’m paid well for my role now, which I appreciate, and I really appreciate the opportunity you are giving me to advance my career here. I recognize that I’ll take a pay cut in the short term but I’m sure you guys understand X% is hard to stomach. Would it be possible to come in at $Y?” Being pretty careful to anchor Y at a reasonable point given other people in the role etc. This is how I would personally handle it. Even if everything falls apart you still work there and while declining the promotion will likely hurt your future chances of being promoted, who knows? So being reasonable is important.
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Apr 1, 2023 18:55
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Thanks guys
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Apr 1, 2023 19:42
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If this helps at all, I calculated my current total compensation at 86k and they are offering me 77k.
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Apr 1, 2023 20:01
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pencilhands posted:If this helps at all, I calculated my current total compensation at 86k and they are offering me 77k. How much of that 87k is OT?
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Apr 1, 2023 20:13
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Lockback posted:How much of that 87k is OT? Almost none. We very rarely work more than 40 hours a week
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Apr 1, 2023 20:28
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"Look I know I’m paid well for my role now, which I appreciate, and I really appreciate the opportunity you are giving me to advance my career here. I recognize that I’ll take a pay cut in the short term but I’m sure you guys understand $9k is hard to stomach. Would it be possible to come in at $82k?” You probably won't miss 80 bucks a week before taxes, its a $5k uplift which they won't fire you for asking for, and you're still essentially meeting them in the middle. You could ask for the whole 86k though, that's not unreasonable. First option is the "be a nice lackey but try to get more", 2nd option is more aggressive. In normal circumstances I'd say be aggressive, in this case you could do either but I'd probably try to keep everyone happy.
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Apr 1, 2023 20:38
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I really appreciate the advice, thank you my goon.
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Apr 1, 2023 20:48
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pencilhands posted:Thanks guys He went from shift lead making hourly to region manager making salary and got paid a lot less. In his niche, it was up or out and he chose up. He’s well compensated ($150k+ in a LCOL area) now but it was a grind to get there. Most new guys in that role burn out and go to competitors as operators or shift leads. I don’t know enough to give advice, but I’d contemplate what happens if you burn out on management.
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Apr 2, 2023 00:28
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Dik Hz posted:I have a friend who was in a similar situation. Construction shift lead for a highly specialized and lucrative form of construction that gets paid for by taxpayers. What did he do to avoid burnout?
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Apr 2, 2023 04:18
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pencilhands posted:What did he do to avoid burnout?
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Apr 2, 2023 15:14
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Dik Hz posted:He’s good with setting work boundaries and completely sets it aside when he gets home. That’s cool. I’m glad it worked out for him!
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Apr 2, 2023 16:45
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I received an offer this morning from a place I interviewed with last week. I followed the rules about not mentioning money or benefits until they did, and the initial offer is a bit underwhelming. Not terrible, but it could definitely be better. Anyways, I told the HR person extending the offer that I had a potential offer with another place coming in sometime early next week (which is true), and asked if it would be okay to let them know by the middle of next week before I made a decision one way or the other. They immediately said that was fine, and then ended with "Oh, and if the wage isn't to your liking, we can certainly discuss it further." I thanked them, and said I would be in touch once I heard back from the other place. The other place has already mentioned salary, and it's significantly higher than the place that made the offer today. They also have a more solid hybrid WFH policy, so I'm definitely leaning towards jumping at them if they make an offer. If the place I'm waiting on tells me that they won't be extending me an offer what's the best way to leverage that with the first place that made an offer? Is it as simple as saying "Hey thanks for the offer, but I was hoping to come in closer to $X.00 an hour instead, would you be able to come in closer to that number?"
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Apr 7, 2023 21:53
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No, don't couch it like that. You want to be firm and say you'll need x to sign today, and they either send a new offer or they counter and you go from there.
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Apr 7, 2023 23:53
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Parallelwoody posted:No, don't couch it like that. You want to be firm and say you'll need x to sign today, and they either send a new offer or they counter and you go from there. They’re more likely to say “Yes” if they know that saying yes results in an agreement. Also, if you give the impression you’re just fishing for a higher offer with no number in mind, you’re probably gonna get “we stand by our first offer” a lot more often
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Apr 9, 2023 01:35
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Thanks, guys! I appreciate the advice. The opening offer they made was $24 an hour/49,920 annually (it's an entry level IT gig). If it comes down to it and the other place tells me to take a hike, I thought I would counter with $27 but now I'm having second thoughts after I discussed with someone else and they said that would likely be over shooting it. So I'm leaning more towards saying $26 and hoping they either accept or offer $25, as I'd like to hit 50K min. The other thing I'll need to negotiate on with either place is that I have a couple of days that I'll need off in May and July, as well as a 3-week trip my wife and I booked a while back for early next year. I'm confident if I say that I need these dates off, but I'm willing to take them unpaid, it'll be fine. But then I worry they might hear about that longer trip, and tell me to piss off. Though if that happens, probably a blessing in disguise. Am I worrying over nothing if it's that far away?
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Apr 9, 2023 22:57
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27 is a reasonable counter, especially since they already let you know they are open to negotiating. I'd probably say higher but 27 isn't too high. They'll counter if it is. Doing negotiate against yourself.
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Apr 10, 2023 01:09
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An entry level applicant asking for 3 separate leave requests including a 3-week stint alongside asking for +11% starting pay may come across a bit naive. Entry level positions are harder to negotiate pay increases because by definition the roles are easy to measure against each other. So it’s real easy for employers to know exactly how much they have to pay. If you have another offer and your BATNA is good, you can make ridiculous demands. If you can say with a straight face “I need X to make this work” and have the conviction to follow through and walk if you don’t get it, you’re in a pretty strong spot. But keep in mind you’re going g to have ti negotiate that 3-week leave with any job you take.
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Apr 10, 2023 02:14
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Am I missing something or wouldn’t the trip next year be on future PTO allowance?
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Apr 10, 2023 02:24
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Yeah that 3-week leave is the part I'm nervous about. Again, it's not till next January, so my hope is most employers are like "oh yeah, whatever." but still. I'm in an advantageous (and very fortunate) position in that my wife makes a killing in her job and easily provides for all of our needs, which is what enabled me to quit my previous job and change careers. So I can be a little picky and firm with offers which is a nice position to be in, but I don't want to get greedy and burn myself. I thought 27 was fair for a counter, but the person I was talking to is a boomer in a completely different industry so  My hope is the other place comes through with an offer but if not, on to plan B. Thanks all! EDIT: Should point out that place A that has made an offer sent me a benefits rundown, and for employees with 0-3 years, they offer 3 weeks PTO, the other place that might make an offer is unlimited PTO (so 4 weeks max, and depends if the manager is a tool or not). Handsome Ralph fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Apr 10, 2023 |
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Apr 10, 2023 02:32
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Okay, so Company B has reached back out and asked if I wouldn't mind disclosing the offer I received from Company A to make sure they are being competitive (this was after a "I'm going to talk to the hiring manager to see if they want to go forward" discussion). Which, I know what that means. How do I respond to that? I don't want to come across as a dick saying outright no, but I don't want to throw a number at them first if I can help it.
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Apr 10, 2023 21:28
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you say no, you can't share it.
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Apr 10, 2023 21:29
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You can say no, that's fine and not a dick move. BUT This is a little different than "Don't say a number". Have they given any offer yet? If they have, and you are saying "I have another offer", then yeah it's your turn to give a number. I'd cut someone loose if they didn't counter with something after I gave a good faith number because I'd assume they're just playing games. Also if you think the counter is an above market number you can use that to anchor. If you're not sure if that's above market then yeah, let them send an offer first.
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Apr 10, 2023 21:32
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They haven't given an offer. The only number they provided was a range during the phone screen, but beyond that, no offer has been presented. EDIT: What if I said something to the effect "I am unable to provide it but I can say that it was within the range we discussed during our initial conversation?"
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Apr 10, 2023 21:35
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Handsome Ralph posted:They haven't given an offer. The only number they provided was a range during the phone screen, but beyond that, no offer has been presented.
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Apr 10, 2023 21:45
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"No. I can't share that information." A single word more than that is a mistake.
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Apr 10, 2023 21:49
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Eric the Mauve posted:"No. I can't share that information." If you want to hurry things along you could just tell them your yes number, which should be notably higher than your alternative. But I'd probably play it as Eric says.
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Apr 10, 2023 21:57
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You can always say "my salary requirements are $X" which is not exactly what they asked for but helps them with their nominal competitive intel while also not being an outright no Saying no is fine, of course.
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Apr 10, 2023 21:59
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